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Naruto and the Kage Bunshin

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Wrath, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. Wrath Mourning

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    Disclaimer: Don't expect a revolution in this essay. This is really something I'm doing because I'm in the middle of a long slump and I want to feel better.

    The Kage Bunshin is a Jounin technique. This fact has been thrown in our faces for a long time. What does that mean, though? Well, we can't say for completely sure, but we can make some educated guesses. And those guesses can lead to some interesting thoughts.

    The Kage Bunshin was included in the Forbidden Scroll, but it's clearly not a forbidden jutsu. That should be obvious by the fact that it's known and used by everyone above a certain level. What it is, is a dangerous jutsu to use for the untrained - it's very draining on your stamina and chakra, so it can't safely be used by the untrained. So it's sealed up and only taught to those who can handle it.

    Now twelve-year-old Naruto could use it without danger. That's because as the vessel of the Kyuubi he has enhanced stamina. But that led to a very interesting situation.

    You see, as I said, the Kage Bunshin is widely known by Jounins. It's not a jutsu unique to Konoha either, and there are many other versions of solid clones used throughout the world. But Naruto is still unique, and I'll tell you why.

    If the Kage Bunshin is available to learn to any Jounin, then that means that in order to learn it you first have to become a Jounin. That much is obvious. But think about it, what does that mean? In order to become a Jounin, you must first become extremely strong. In order to become strong, you must have your own way of fighting.

    A Jounin has years of combat experience. They have a defined style that works for them, otherwise they'd be dead or stuck in lower ranks. If a Chuunin is someone who works well in a team, then a Jounin is someone who stands out from the crowd as individually strong.

    But this means that when they learn the Kage Bunshin, it can only possibly be an addition to their style. It is a move to be used sparingly, as the side dish to their fighting main course. We can see this in Kakashi, in Zabuza, in Itachi, in Gaara, and so on. They might use a clone to get out of a tight spot, or to trick someone, or to attack from two directions, but it's always used in addition to something else.

    This is why Naruto is so different. You see, the Kage Bunshin was the first combat jutsu Naruto ever learned. He learned it specifically before he had his own style. And because he is the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki he had the stamina to make use of it years before he should have been able to.

    What does this mean? Well, two things. Firstly, it means that Naruto's entire combat style has been built up around the Kage Bunshin. He's used it in just about every fight he's ever had. This makes him unique, because in Naruto the system is reversed. This is what makes up a large part of his unpredictability, because his style is unique - he defies the generally accepted beliefs of the ninja world.

    The second thing it means is more interesting. Essentially, by this point in Naruto's career, I believe he has used the Kage Bunshin more than anyone else ever has. Because it was the first real jutsu he learned, and because he has the superhuman stamina to use it so often, Naruto has been using it constantly for over three years, compared to most people who only use it or its equivalents rarely.

    So what happens when you use a technique that many times? Well, naturally you improve with it. You master it. It's like if you practice one punch over and over and over again. Eventually you're going to be able to throw it perfectly without even thinking. Your form would become perfect.

    We've seen that gaps of skill exist in the Narutoverse in the use of jutsus. Kakashi commented that only an Uchiha could perfom the Goukakyuu as well as Itachi did in chapter 260, and clearly that was far better than any one Sasuke ever did before. That's something that comes from time and effort rather than any talent. And because of his circumstances, Naruto has used the Kage Bunshin more than any character we've ever seen.

    I believe that Naruto's Kage Bunshins have evolved, so to speak. He has advanced in the use of them so much that he can now do things with them that no one else can. We saw a hint of this when Naruto finally lost control after failing to kill Deidara - even though Naruto was going berserk and transforming into KN1 and then 2, his Kage Bunshins first remained, and second reacted.

    What it means in terms of their combat abilities is unclear. Naruto's Kage Bunshins now have no problem using their own jutsus, creating new clones and Rasengans, which are hardly cheap in terms of chakra, but what else we just can't quite speculate on. Probably it is the case that Naruto's skill has reached such a peak that he can use the absolute perfect amount of chakra/stamina for each clone, and do it without any effort. But what special characteristics they may have, we can't say.

    What we can say for sure is that Naruto's use of the Kage Bunshin has evolved. Preskip, it was clear that Naruto's use of them was force over finesse. He often used clever tactics, but he did so in conjunction with hordes of clones. But postskip he's never once done that, instead using a couple here and there, and relying on finesse over force. That alone is interesting, because Naruto's chakra can hardly have decreased over the years. If preskip he had enough raw chakra - without using the Kyuubi - to create a thousand clones at once (as he did against Gaara) then postskip he should be able to create far more. And yet he doesn't. And there was nothing wrong with that tactic, indeed it was very effective. Naruto still holds it in reserve, but he has more restraint than to use it without cause.

    At the moment, Naruto has not had a real fight of his own, postskip. The only true fight was the Bell Test, and that was almost entirely skipped over. So everything we say is prediction rather than fact. But from the scattered fragments we have, we can see the beginning of a new and exciting picture. When Kishimoto stops jerking us around and actually shows Naruto fighting, don't expect him to go over the top with clones and Kyuubi chakra. Expect him to be controlled, careful and clever.
     
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  2. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    This has to be one of the best essays that I have ever read. Knocks all the others out of the ballpark. I never thought of it like that. Rep to you! :thumbs
     
  3. Illumina Nice sword

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    Very good post!

    Before naruto started using kage bushin it was probably only known to be a skill as you said to suprise the enemy or alike, probably only used as little as kawamari.

    But Naruto has brought kage bushins to a next level, and when he becomes hokage i am sure that he will encourage ninjas with alot of chackra and stamina but not so much talent in ninjitsu and alike to become kage bushin ninjas.
     
  4. Ulquiorra Schiffer Tsugi no mai: Hakuren

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    Excellent essay...Definite reps to you for this. I never would have thought about this ever in my entire Naruto career.

    I don't know if he'll encourage Kage Bunshin like that....I think he may suggest it to a few people but I'm sure that Naruto will want everyone to burn their own path and forge their own style. As he, himself, did.
     
  5. Leen Peacemaker

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    Not bad. I dont know what else should I add in. :thumbs
     
  6. Illumina Nice sword

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    Perhaps, maybe i should change he will encourage to it will encourage ?
     
  7. Lacus Clyne So Long and Goodnight

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    Very interesting. I never really stopped to think that Naruto was backwards, learning Kage Bunshin before any other jutsu. Now I'm even more excited to see a real fight involving Naruto :spaz
     
  8. Chamcham Trigger 光翼型近接支援残酷戦闘機“エヴァッカニア・ドゥーム

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    Yikes that's a really in depth essay. I have to say that almost everything in there is really solid. I don't know about the encouraging part, but everything else is a really solid theory. I will say that I hope they end up making the technique more than a display for showing how skilled the opponent is, but having them beat the crap out of the bunshins.
     
  9. geminis Active Member

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    Thank You Wrath !!!!

    Finally someone who understands the threat that Naruto poses with his clever bunshins. How would anybody know that person is fighting the REAL Naruto? Who has the raw power to take on 50= midchuunin-jounin level nins at ounce? this is why I say/think that no chunin level nin can take on Naruto unless that person is a genjutsu specialist or chakra eater. Straight taijutsu won't be enough against Naruto anymore.


    Rock Lee with gates opened won't be enough for Naruto. I dare say that Naruto can take on Gai single handedly. Itachi is still stronger than Naruto but I say this because Itachi is actually Naruto's worst matchup.

    Naruto can make his own 6 man cell and even henge a couple of them. All Naruto needs is a medical nin like sakura and a fair genjutsu user nothing too fancy but atleast a person who can dispel some genjutsu.
     
  10. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    I think you are geting a bit overboard. Naruto can't take 50 chuunins on by himself. He is probably stronger than about every chuunin but I doubt he could even take two of the rookie 9 at once.
     
  11. ShiXnitZ New Member

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    Where exactly do you get this opinion from, have you thought at all?

    People seem to think the level in power gap from rank to rank is small, maybe due to the fact that the main characters in the Naruto storyline are advancing through them so fast.

    In Konoha there are 20-30 year old Chuunins, and older I'm sure. There's something called "potential" ... not every ninja has the potential to be a jounin, or even a chuunin.

    By evidence of his victories in battle and his skills (he attained Rasengan already..) he is clearly, despite what anyone might want to say, at a Jounin level.

    Remember what happened when Kakashi (a famously strong Konoha jounin) confronted Orochimaru? It's unclear what exactly happened but it looked like from the killing intent alone he was paralyzed.

    Now, Naruto has insanely high potential (since he's a jinchuukri *sp*), has shown a pretty terrifying rate of growth in the time frame the first part of the manga portrays, and lastly now he's been off for 3 entire YEARS training with one of the same Sannin as Orochimaru, Jiraiya, who stood on mostly even grounds while fighting Orochimaru.

    And you think he couldn't take on any number of chuunins? He's stronger than "about any" chuunin? What chuunin could possibly be stronger, summon Gamabunta, or learn Rasengan? What jounin could even learn Rasengan is a better question... we only know of three people who know/knew it for sure now including Naruto.

    If that's your opinion you're entitled to it, it's just hard for me to understand.

    As for the main topic of the post, I hope they do find some way to make it look cool, because if I have to see one more god damned variation on that retarded "U - ZU - MA - KI ..NARUTO NISSAN RENDAN!!!" bullsh** from these retarded filler episodes I'm going to take this keyboard and slam it in to my face until I bleed to death.
     
  12. Wrath Mourning

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    Something I should probably add:

    In a way, learning to fight the way Naruto did with the Kage Bunshin is a very subtle sort of training. If you're splitting yourself into multiple bodies, on some level you have to be splitting your mind too. The clones are not simply separate entities, otherwise Naruto would never be able to manage the level of sophistication and cooperation that he does. So, that means that using the Kage Bunshin is, in effect, training for the mind. It teaches you how to literally examine a problem from different angles, and how to think your way round them.

    This can help explain Naruto's stunning tactical abilities. He is used to working as a perfect team. As Naruto now knows, it's not enough to simply charge at an opponent with your full power. You have to out think them as well. Look at the precision he used when rescuing Gaara from Deidara: two of him use a Rasengan to free Gaara, then a clone makes two more to catch the head of the clay bird, those three open up the head to secure Gaara, while at the same time another clone is sent to help Kakashi. But while all this is happening, the real Naruto is going round behind Deidara for a surprise attack. That's simply incredible, if you think about it.
     
  13. geminis Active Member

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    You misunderstood me. I meant to say the other way around. Fighting Naruto is like fighting 50 chuunin level nins. Take rock lee(him and tayuya keep poppin up in my mind) for example. Lee activates 5-6 gates to take on Naruto who in a matter of 2 second will have created numerous bunshins which have the same jutsu capacity as the real naruto relatively speaking since Naruto has the kyuubi for extra mileage.
     
  14. Keyser S?ze Formerly Midnight Joker

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    naruto is strong but he's not strong enough to take on 50 chuunins. i don't know how strong you think naruto is right now, but he probably couldn't take on more than a few chuunin. back to the topic, really well thought out, good job wrath. I think you made some good points, especially the part about naruto not using as many bunshins anymore. not only is he not using as many, he's tactically placing each bunshin, i.e when he went to attack deidara he left one behind to take care of kakashi.
     
  15. Nymphetamine Shinigami

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    Very good... very good indeed... rep!
     
  16. Frieza Destroyer of Worlds

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    Naruto invented his own style, but Jiraiya helped him perfect it.
     
  17. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    Now with that I can agree, if you have no way to eliminate all those bunshins at once like with the katon sasuke used you are in for a quite exhausting fight.
    I think you mean Tenten, Tayuya was the girl with the genjutsu flute.

    I did think. I based it on the fact that Naruto was stronger than most of the rookie 9 before the time skip, atleast when he was dead serious, like against Neji or Gaara and the fact that he was trained for 2.5 years by a Sannin. However he is still behind Kakashi as was seen in the bell test when he and Sakura took hours to get the bells and in the end needed to rely on a trick that would never work in a fight.


    Is he really? In power output perhaps, in a one on one where the enemy does not exploit his mental weakness - as was seen in his encounter with Itachi's 30 percent clone, and the way he lost control over himself in his latest encounter with the Akatsuki - yes, but there is more to being a jounin than high chakra and some fancy jutsus, he still needs to be taken by the hand when confronted with new situations.

    Yeah and he was alone, there weren't 50 jounins around him.

    Yeah I think so. The enemy does not need to summon the likes of Gamabunta or use Rasengan to defeat him. Basic skills and jutsu are more than enough to defeat him.

    Glad I'm entitled to my own opinion. Your own is also quite incomprehensible to me so we ought to be even
     
  18. Raptor Vagabond

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    Very deep. very good. everyone has his own style and Naruto developed his own.
     
  19. shibigoku Master of the fist

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    I'm speechless... Bravo!
     
  20. blazingshadow True Wind Rune

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    i think that naruto is already stronger than most chuunin. he can go kyuubi, summon gamabunta, do rasengan and do tajuu kage bunshin. he probably take on some low to mid level genjutsu users as well (itachi is quite the genjutsu powerhouse anyways). he probably can take on most of the rookie 9 + 3.

    lets see:

    rock lee might need to use 4-5 gates to go past kyuubi naruto's/naruto with red chakra speed but even then naruto can kage bunshin to compensate

    ten ten is probably not a good match against naruto anyways

    chouji and kiba will probably have an advantage until naruto turns on the red chakra to resist the damage from their attacks plus he can always summon gamabunta if they decide to be serious

    hinata will...bah why even bother? she's not going to fight him

    sasuke, neji, sakura, shikamaru and shino might give naruto some trouble even when (not so sure about sakura but she might bust out a genjutsu)
    i don't know about ino though, she probably would lose to normal naruto unless she can confuse some clones to fight themselves.
     
  21. TDW The New King

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    Well if there was something to add in if you want to point out the evolution of Naruto's Kage Bushin, I would also add in the fact that they seem to have been able over time to take more and more impacts. At the beginning it looked like if they were touched, they were done, but over time we've seen that he has been able to use them even after they have been hit once or more times.
     
  22. yami Member

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    maybe he will make his own blood line taijutsu. kage bunshins taijutsu. yea that would be cool. BTW EXCELENT post u got there
     
  23. Gunners .

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    I never thought of it in that sense but it true.

    Most people learn KB once they have developed their own fighting style, naruto makes KB before he has a style therefore KB is adapted into his style.

    Cant rep you so thumbs up.
     
  24. blazingshadow True Wind Rune

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    exploding kage bunshin, elemental bunshin and the like could be useful in naruto's style of fighting
     
  25. Wrath Mourning

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    Well, that's not really a new ability or anything. It's a matter of choice on the user's part. Basically it seems you can make a Kage Bunshin which will only take one hit, or you can choose to pump more chakra into it and have it last much longer. Naruto consciously used this ability as early as the Forest of Death. But you're thinking along the right lines - one of Naruto's clones is almost certainly more durable than their equivalent from someone else.

    EDIT - to clarify this point, what I mean is..

    Say Naruto and Random Jounin A both make a Kage Bunshin. They both use 10 units of chakra to do it. Naruto's KB will be significantly more durable than Random Jounin A's, even though they used the same amount of chakra.

    This concept of skill applies to every ability Narutoverse ninjas can learn - Jounins are stronger than Genin not just because they have more chakra, but because they can do much more with the same amount. Certainly Naruto could probably have rivalled most Jounin in raw chakra by the end of Part 1 - not counting the Kyuubi, of course, because with that he'd far surpass them.
     
  26. Locksmith EXPLETIVE DELETED

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    Naruto got lucky in finding a jutsu that works so well for him. He was also lucky that he taught it to himself because no ninja would teach him to use Kage Bunshin the way he does. It would be suicide for almost anyone other than another demon vessel to use Kage Bunshin the way Naruto does in both parts.

    In part 1, Naruto tries to substitute quantity for quality, attacking his opponent with many clones. His success with this tactic was mixed. Haku, Neji, Sasuke (on the hospital roof), and Kimmimaro were all able handle Naruto's Kage Bunshin attacks.

    In part 2, Naruto, thus far, has used fewer clones, but has used them more often and more effectively. We have seen him create a clone to do one thing then get rid of it. We actually first saw him do this in part 1 when he was learning the Rasengan. It will be interesting seeing what tactics he will use in other fights in part 2.

    In both parts, Naruto is very wasteful of his chakra. This is fine for him because of his large amount of chakra, but few others can be so wasteful. Naruto got lucky learning Kage Bunshin, then developed the perfect style for himself. However, it is a style which almost no other ninja will be able to duplicate.
     
  27. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    Ok geminis I really don't know where you get your information of your ideas but they are horribly wrong.

    There is no way in hell Naruto could take on 50 chuunin-jounin level nins. Naruto was barely scraping Chuunin level by the end of part one. Sasuke and Neji seem to have no problem taking out Naruto bunshins, it doesn't matter which one is the real one if you beat them all.
    Sasuke is neither and he beat Naruto. I am in no way discrediting Naruto but pure taijutus isn't enough to beat most people that are worth it in the show. I mean Lee hasn't won a fight yet.
    Gai would school Naruto, plain and simple. I don't care what level of Kyuubi he goes. Gai would beat Naruto before it got out of hand. He is a Jounin, he may not be the most intelligent person but he is battle smart.
    Are you saying that Naruto could make 5 bunshins and have them henge into other nins with different abilites? I'm sorry but if henge could do that it wouldn't be an E rank jutsu.
    Do you even take into account that bunshins die in one hit? And if you haven't noticed post time skip Naruto doesn't create excess ammounts of bunshins. He only creates what is needed. And if Naruto created 50 bunshins I doubt all of them would beable to do any jutsus that were worth it. They definately wouldn't beable to do Rasengan. That would mean without using all of his chakra he could do 50 Rasengans. If Naruto made 50 bunshins each one might beable to do a C or B rank tech but thats about it.
     
  28. Gunners .

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    How was he lucky finding kage bunshin no jutsu, if you rember he couldnt even do a bunshin, learning KB for him, would have been hard work period.

    And most ninja wont be able to duplicate his style, it is almost unique to him in the sense that he done it so long he knows the exact time and place to do it, just look at the fights he been in.
     
  29. blazingshadow True Wind Rune

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    he can make them last longer and he has more than enough chakra to use 10 kage bunshin with rasengan or more. he can always tap the red chakra to power the rasengan bunshins
     
  30. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    No, he cannot make his bunshins survive more than one hit. Thats all. And I don't know if you read my post or not but 10 is a lot different from 50 my friend.
     
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