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NBD League Match 3: Kisame vs Gaara

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by FlamingRain, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Battlefield: Sasuke vs. Deidara
    Starting Distance: 20m
    Knowledge: Manga
    Mindset: IC
    Restrictions/Stipulations: None

    League Rules:
    • Debaters will only submit two posts (one introduction and one rebuttal post).
    • 1,000 words is the goal for each post (no more than 50 over).
    • Debaters may not address the judges' reasoning.
     
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  2. Atlantic Storm booze intermission Advisor

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    good luck to whoever got gaara, lmao
     
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  3. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Really? I was honestly feeling sorry for whoever got Kisame lol.
     
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  4. Atlantic Storm booze intermission Advisor

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    the battledome must have changed a lot in the years i've been gone if kisame is now considered a favourable match-up for gaara
     
  5. Shark 鮫仙

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    It's not that the battledome changed, it's just that the war arc happened. :yumme
     
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  6. oiety greatredragon

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    If there has been a change, I declare it is only for the better. If the same people were to remain here with the same opinions and same arguments this place would stagnate even more than it has. New blood is important for a healthy body.
     
  7. Shark 鮫仙

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    Not only that, the newer generation had it tougher what with the war arc ruining the scaling; the older posters had it easier not having to deal with shit like that.

    Just look at Tobirama now; he goes from below Sannin individually to soloing the Gokage.

    Bee's BM performance in the war vs his performance vs MS Sasuke

    Edo Itachi

    The masters performances (Gai won't make a difference against Pain vs Gai against the Jins and JJs, Kakashi's Kamui)

    KCM Naruto and his clones...

    Etc

    Back then no one had to make sense of this mess.

    In fact I'd say the level of debating required in those topics is higher due to what we have to work with.

    This is why for example I'm sympathetic towards @Turrin 's more extreme views (and he's old gen).

    And I joined in 2010 so I kinda have an idea what I'm talking about.
     
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  8. Shark 鮫仙

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    Inb4 all these posts get deleted. :mjlol
     
  9. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Kisame vs Gaara


    Battlefield: By the forest, Sasuke vs. Deidara

    Starting Distance: 20m

    Knowledge: Manga

    Restrictions/Stipulations: No restrictions


    So Kisame and Gaara are pretty similar in that they both are kind of walking battlefield terrain transformers.

    Early on Gaara will only have his Gourd Sand for attack and defense until he grinds more from the environment whereas Kisame will opt for a mix of suiton ninjutsu and cqc. He can flood the environment whenever he chooses, a 30% clone of himself was capable of producing this[ ] in a relatively flatland area.

    Gaara's sand is strong and fast but we know it if the person is strong enough and dodged if the person is fast enough.

    Kisame was capable of overpowering base Might Guy as a 30% clone of himself[ ], and match up evenly with Killer Bee's headbutt[ ] (with samehada), someone who is capable of overpowering the 4th Raikage[ ]. He's called the bijuu without a tail, and we know how strong bijuu-related people are[ ].

    Kisame is no slouch in the water, and can ride his sharks at will[ ] or transform himself into kisamehada which we know is faster than cloaked killer bee in water.

    What I think will happen is Gaara will find it hard to catch Kisame or restrain him with just his gourd sand. Kisame will strong enough to tank and break free at first and assault Gaara but he'll eventually be overwhelmed by Gaara grinding even more sand than before.

    Maybe he'll be sinking downward at the point where he's finally immobilized successfully and at that point he'll spit out a deluge.

    The thing is it'd be one thing if Kisame uses Fire or Futon or Raiton since those things kind of are performed and then evaporate after. Kisame's water though.. its going to stick around soak into the surroundings including any sand Gaara grinds from the soil. This will make it heavier and slower almost like the opposite of Onoki lightening his sand[ ]

    And from there Kisame will stay in the water and Gaara will go airborne and continue to try to ensnare Kisame, but it's just not likely he will succeed. The sand will move slower when wet and it will have to display water while moving to get to Kisame on top of that.

    Kisame and Samehada are always absorbing chakra[ ] in proximity at a massive rate even before something hits into them[ ]. That means its going to be draining the chakra that makes Gaara's sand move as well even before it reaches Kisame.

    Its one thing if your saying Gaara's sand is regular strength moving through the open air and he's going to produce enough to restrain Kisame eventually that's something.

    It's another to suggest drenched, water soaked, chakra drained sand is going to be able to restrain Kisame of all people, who overpowered base Guy as a 30% clone, who's been directly compared to bijuu, and who took Yamato's mokuton stockade off like a necklace[ ].

    That's just not realistic.

    What's going to happen is pretty straightforward, they will engage in low scale ninjutsu, maybe some cqc, and eventually escalate into large scale battlefield transformation ninjutsu matching one another blow for blow.


    The thing is Kisame makes the surroundings underwater, so all the sand Gaara grinds he'll have to either multitask suspending it above the battlefield in addition to attacking or defending to keep it dry, or it will become drenched in the water below and heavier taxing him more to maneuver it effectively if at all.


    As the battle draws on Gaara's sand (all the extra grounded from the soil) will become progressively wetter and heavier as it takes on water and less chakra dense as it approaches Kisame in proximity ( because Kisame is his opponent and a terrible match up). Gaara will try to ensnare Kisame, but it will fail as he won't be strong enough to hold him with his weakened sand even if he can catch him in the water at all.

    Gaara will realize this and retreat into the air out of reach when he realizes the battlefield has become a sea and he can't win head to head on ground.

    And when in the air, mostly away from the ground sand, with only his special chakra saturated Gourd Sand to protect him, he will be taken out by Daikodan which will absorb that chakra and only grow bigger and stronger as it barrels towards him[ ].

    Kisame's never going to be caught underneath the water, Gaara on the other hand has no counter to Daikodan but to put a doomed wall of sand controlled by chakra in between him and the blast.

    Gaara's only win opportunities I can see are mass producing sand AND killing Kisame fast enough before Kisame can retaliate in kind with his own large scale ninjutsu. If they both are able to use the ninjutsu in their arsenal, Kisame will eat Gaara and come out STRONGER than when he first went in as funny as that sounds.
     
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  10. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Overview
    Although at first glance, Kisame vs Gaara seems like a very close matchup with two equally powerful AoE based fighters, you will soon realize that unfortunately, this isn’t the case and that Gaara is the one who’s clearly one step above Kisame.

    Based off the matchup stipulations, Gaara is quite certain to hold an advantage over Kisame due to a number of key factors such as knowledge and the battlefield location.


    On the knowledge side, there is a couple definitive factors that point to Gaara’s superiority, one being the fact that Gaara was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Shinobi Forces. This group knew they were going up against Akatsuki and as such they had a communications team ready to share intel on the Edo treats from the Akatsuki. It is very likely then that Gaara along the other commanders was given Intel on the known Akatsuki Shinobi that were prone to being revived and fought against, Kisame being one of them.This is in addition to any Intel shared by Konoha during the Kazekage rescue mission. Just the knowledge of his water jutsu AoE and chakra absorption would cripple any surprise factor that Kisame might try to pull off.


    Location is also a huge defining factor for this match, since the battle is fought on an open field, . Given enough time, which Gaara easily has the capability to create as it will be explained below, he can turn this location into his home turn, which spells death for almost anyone who dares to fight him in such a disadvantageous environment.
    The Battle

    Kisame will be at a disadvantage in this battle from the very beginning due to a couple of reasons, one being that he is a close range sword fighter, something which Gaara doesn’t usually engage on. Gaara’s MO as usual, is to immediately create distance between himself and the opponent, most likely by forcing Kisame to defend and a retreat using a . This attacks could very likely cripple Kisame from the very beginning due to their and the fact that if succesful, Gaara will then be able to throughout the match to his advantage.


    Once Kisame realizes that he is not going to go anywhere near Gaara in CqC Kisame is very likely going to try and turn the battlefield to his advantage and spawn a great body of water in order to overwhelm Gaara with long range water jutsu and such. This is however going to ultimately fail due to Gaara’s sand abilities which allow him to fight at any range, in this case, due to his hovering sand cloud in his possession he virtually has unlimited range.


    By flying outside of Kisame’s AoE range, Gaara is now virtually safe from all of Kisame’s attack attempts, even if he flew closer to the body of water, . With speeds like these Gaara can easily maneuver around the Kisame’s fruitless attempts at tagging him with an attack that at worst, Gaara can use the sand around him to shield himself.


    At this point, it might seem like a bit of a stalemate, with Kisame having control of the battlefield element and Gaara being out of his reach, however this is far from being the case and it is around this point in the battle that the battlefield control is also going to shift to Gaara and this will cripple Kisame in a way that he can’t possibly recover from.


    Gaara is going to take full control of the battle by implementing 2 simple solutions. The first key step that Gaara will execute is taking advantage of the ground below the potential body of water that Kisame is controlling. By this point in battle, Gaara should have amassed an incredible amount of sand beneath Kisame’s potential body of water. Furthermore water has not been shown to significantly effect Gaara’s proficiency with the sand, in fact it has been shown to be used alongside therefore when Gaara’s sand is faced with Kisame’s great body of water and suiton attacks, it should be no more bothersome than plain air.


    The second step to Gaara’s success is the element of surprise, with whether he has a great body of water or not, he is going to be caught off guard and face certain death when surrounded by so much sand coming from all directions, sealing his fate away.


    An argument might be attempted to be made against Gaara by mentioning Kisame’s waterdome that could be used by surprise, although it would be very doubtful that Kisame would use it due to Gaara not being a Jin anymore and therefore not needing to be captured without being killed but let’s pretend that he does. Not only does Gaara possesss the ultimate shield which he can very quickly use from the water and the to coordinate attacks from the outside, but he would also use the immense amount of

    Closing thoughts

    No matter which way you look at it, Gaara simply holds an elemental and fighting style advantage that Kisame can’t hope to overcome given his current moveset, against a much more superior and diverse style than his own.
     
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  11. MaruUchiha The Fourth Six Paths

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    So are we chosen to debate these matches or we just decide if we wanna participate in one?
     
  12. Kingindisguise Banned

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  13. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Rebuttal

    This is a fine point, but Kisame and Gaara are interchangeable here. Both Kisame and Gaara are practitioners of large scale battlefield altering ninjutsu. If anything the only difference is, Kisame should have even more stamina because Gaara is no longer a Jinchuuriki. Gaara's reserves post-extraction should if anything be more in line with his father Rasa's, not Kisame's the 'bijuu without a tail'. Factoring in chakra absorption the gap grows further, so I have doubts Gaara will be able to keep pace with Kisame throughout the entirety of this fight blow for blow.


    If these initial attacks were to succeed in halting Kisame's movements, or Gaara were to ensnare him using the ground[ ], I have little doubt Kisame would utilize ninjutsu and unleash a torrent of water (either the Lake or the Water Dome) in response to being successfully physically restrained[ ] as it would be his only option at such a point. In fact his immobilization and subsequent ninjutsu retaliation is a part of my original thesis.

    Secondly, Kisame is physically very strong, and very unlikely to be immobilized by just Gaara's starting amounts of sand/ Gourd sand, Madara =/= Kisame physically. The limits of Gaara's restraining strength were seen in the Kimimaro battle, Kimi was too powerful to be held except with larger quantities of sand. Tsunade Raikages Kisame Killer Bee, maybe even Kakuzu; these characters are all drastically stronger than that. Even Might Guy was physically strong enough to swat away a pile of Gaara's sand although this was in Part 1. Just for the record, Gaara immobilizing someone as physically powerful as Kisame, with only his initial starting small amount of sand, would the first time he's done so as a character. Which is good because he'll need a lot of first times if he's to win this match :kaga.

    I do agree after Kisame floods the battlefield in character Gaara is likely to go into the air. He can go into the air at any time[ ]. Gaara is not the type to fly above the enemy outside of their range the entire battle though, that is a tactic Deidara is more likely to employ[ ] sometimes other flyers even look down on the tactic. Gaara did not do this vs Kimimaro, he did not do it vs Madara's Susano'o clones, and he will not do it vs Kisame here either.

    Gaara's sand is surely fast but this isn't Adult Gaara who dances and can CqC and surf on the sand in midair against opponents. Gaara's main thing is not evasion and speed, it is defense. This can be seen in how he defended w/ Domes vs Chuunin Sasuke, Sand Walls vs Kimi, Domes vs Deidara, and Walls again vs Madara's Susano'o clones.

    Gaara using his chakra filled gourd sand[ ] to defend himself against Daikodan[ ] is exactly why he loses.

    Gaara is not going to be out of range of Daikodan.

    Yes, Gaara will have access to a bunch of wet sand that's been drenched by Kisame's water. Any matter that takes on water, if anything moreso sand, will be heavier. And we know the weight of Gaara's sand effects his performance, it being usable inside suiton doesn't change that.

    The sand moving as fast underwater as in plain air is also unlikely... as displacing water is harder to do than displacing open air. It's not just sand anything would be slower. I do concede Gaara will be able to move sand even if it is in water and wet, you've clearly demonstrated such, but these other parts of your argument are only true if we willfully ignore what we know of physics basically.

    Fact is Kisame himself is fast in water, he's even faster when riding one of his sharks through his water, and if he fuses with Samehada he's flat out blitzing people on Cloaked Killer Bee's tier of speed and slower pretty much. Wet sand is heavier than dry sand, and maneuvering that sand through water will 100% be more difficult than maneuvering it through open air. In a nutshell, I completely disagree.

    Non-Gourd sand is noticeably slower than Gaara's special sand. Also, the element of surprise is random, I can just as easily say Gaara is immediately caught in Kisame's water the first time he uses his AoE attack like he caught Killer Bee. And Kisame w/ samehada was a sensor capable of tracking down Killer Bee. If fused with samehada, he would sense it coming from a mile away. And any sand close to him will begin losing chakra rapidly due to Samehada.

    Which brings us back to my point of Gaara being unable to catch Kisame. Your basically expecting me to believe wet and heavier sand that is forced to displace water instead of open air is going to catch Kisame of all people who is notoriously fast underwater + a sensor. This is to say nothing of the fact Kisame can create multiple clones of himself[ ], and hide amongst potentially hundreds of sharks[ ], and that it will be a choir for Gaara to even see where Kisame is inside of the water.


    Meanwhile Gaara will be somewhere in the air, clearly visible, not particularly an evasive type shinobi, the kind of type to erect defensive constructs, which brings us back to my original thesis and conclusion:


     
  14. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Rebuttal



    The problem that I see here is that although Kisame is very strong, P2 Gaara's sand is no slouch when it comes to dealing with powerful attacks such as and Kisame hasn't showed anything that suggest he can go has physical power beyond the Raikage.

    I agree, he isn't a slouch in water but it is hard to see how that will help him vs an opponent than can go airborne.

    Gaara has shown to use his sand in yet it wasn't shown to be any weaker/slower. Although sand in real life does get heavier, it doesn't mean it will have nearly the same effect on Gaara.

    Gaara's sand can attack from every single direction, and Kisame .

    Kisame and Samehada also have more success absorbing chakra when an object is coated with it, which is not the case for Gaara's sand, specially the one he controls from the ground and not the chakra infused sand in his gourd.

    There is just not enough evidence water is significantly affecting Gaara's sand. The fact is Gaara can create an endless supply of sand, and infuse it with even more chakra to counteract any water effects, as long as he has chakra, it will function like normal. He could also control the sand to shake the water of with high speed vibrations.

    Wet sand if anything would make it more difficult for Kisame to break out if it wrapped around him due to the greater surface tension that it would provide.

    Gaara is capable of controlling sand from . If Gaara is flying outside of Kisame's reach, then he has all the time in the world to grind up sand and make his own ocean of sand to match Kisame's body of water.

    Not only could this sand catch him off guard and kill him right then and there but it will be enough to overwhelm Kisame who althought migh be surrounded by water, he can't really manipulate water anywhere close to how Gaara does.

    Gaara could make as a kid, and as an experienced adult and all the time in the world, he is just simply going to grind up so much sand that Kisame won't be able to protect from it all.
     
  15. Turrin 玄武

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    As a judge I’m assuming I can vote in this match @FlamingRain. So here is my vote.

    The poster arguing for Gaara wins my vote and here’s why. For simplicity sake I’ll call the Kisame Poster, Poster A and Gaara Poster, Poster B.

    Almost the entirety of Poster As intro post and most of the rebutall has to do with how Gaara sand won’t operate correctly while soaked with water; this is completely countered by the fact that Gaara Sand worked fine while within Mei water Dragon something Poster B clearly mentions. Poster B misses a step not mentioning that Madara was also using a Chakra absorption technique at that time too, which didn’t effect Gaara sand ether, which would hard counter the idea that Kisame could weaken the sand with absorption. Ether way the argument was weak though.

    The second argument of Poster B seems to be that Kisame can overcome the Sand with physical strength because CS2 Kimi did. Kimi didn’t just muscle through the sand he yanked Being crushed by sand coffin first and then escaped, something Kisame can’t do; also thats SRA Gaara. So it’s not a very believable argument ether.

    On the other hand Poster Bs arguments that Gaara can fight outside Kisame optimal range and could eventually turn the tables in battlefield control by summoning sand above the water range more true; I do think Poster B should have mentioned how Gaara lifted his Sand above Rasa Gold dust a jutsu specifically set to weigh down the opponents Sand something even A Bijuu couldn’t do as it would have even more hard countered the opposing argument, but I still think Poster B did enough to warrant it.

    Anyway since the match largely seems to come down to whether I as a voter believe Kisame can weigh / chakra absorb the bulk of Gaara Sand allowing him to then overwhelm the remaining Gourd Sand; and I don’t believe it nor do I think it was argued effectively this is why my vote goes to Poster B
     
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  16. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Wait, I assumed that 5 judges were preselected for each match? This was my assumption. If not, I'd be happy to judge this match if any of you don't mind.
     
  17. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    We just need 5 available from the list in the leaderboard thread.
     
  18. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Judgement

    The debater who argued in favor of Gaara wins. For simplicity sake, Poster A will be Gaara debater and Poster B will be Kisame debater.

    The crux of Poster B's argument was that Kisame's Suiton would eventually overcome Gaara through increasing the weight of Gaara's sand making it more difficult in order to use properly as opposed to Kisame who can freely use his jutsu and maneuver around the battlefield quickly if need be. The issue with his argument is as Poster A stated, Gaara explicitly used his sand as a combination jutsu with Mei's Suiton without any sort of issues whatsoever and Kisame's mobility argument was rendered null because Gaara can simply maneuver around the battlefield as well, even moreso because Gaara is airborne and can escape the range of Kisame's attacks as Poster A noted. Poster A could've gone the step further by emphasizing Mei's potency and how that corresponds to her Suiton having significantly higher density, but he did what was sufficient enough to argue his point.

    Poster B also argued that Kisame would win by outlasting his opponent due to his insane chakra pool and "Bijuu without a tail" hype, but I felt as though that fell flat as Poster A implicitly argued that his sand would not be absorbed as his gourd sand is his only sand that is infused with chakra and has unique features associated with it as a result. Poster B could've created a more convincing position by comparing 30% Kisame to KN0 Naruto's chakra which managed to summon Gamabunta (no chakra control, just raw chakra alone) and exceeded Nagato's chakra by his own affirmation. He didn't do that, so I was led to believe that chakra wouldn't have been a factor. This also means that Gaara can defend against Daikodan with sand from the environment, so Daikodan alone wasn't enough to convince me that Gaara would lose.

    Overall, Poster A effectively argued his position better. Gaara can render Kisame's chakra absorption useless and can freely manipulate sand as can Kisame, but he has the aerial mobility enabling Gaara to stay out of range from Kisame which Poster A argued brilliantly while Kisame is forced underwater and is in range of Gaara's sand. Poster A also proved that Gaara's sand can be manipulated from any distance making this even more likely and that Kisame really has no physical means of escaping his sand (as Gaara's sand soaked the brunt of V2 Raikage's strength).

    There were extra things Poster A could've argued such as Gaara's Sand being capable of resisting Madara's Gezo Mazo and Sand that could soak C3's explosion which could've been used to argue how Gaara's sand fares against Kisame's Suiton in a direct clash, but he did enough to secure the win as the crux of Poster B's argument was not only refuted, but it insinuated that Kisame's Suiton couldn't really overpower Gaara's sand to begin with.
     
  19. Robo Heretic

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    Hmm.... Is Gaara's control of the sand stronger, or Kisame's control of the water? I feel like whoever has the strongest will gain control of the mud :)
     
  20. weegee22 Member

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    The thing is that on all of the canon occasions Gaara's sand has been submerged inside water, it still remained the same as ever, strength-wise and control-wise.
     
  21. Robo Heretic

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    Kind-of explains his separation of sand/minerals from the earth when fighting Kimi I guess. It didn't really look like soil.
     
  22. Shark 鮫仙

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    KP did well mentioning how Kisame will have access to more water than Gaara will have sand in the initial stages of the battle. Regarding the sand/water argument, GP is correct in providing the scans that Gaara's sand was used in combination with Suiton, however I feel KP is right in saying that that doesn't mean his sand is the exact same speed - ultimately however I think this sides more with GP's arguments for Gaara since even if the sand is somewhat affected by water, there's really no evidence to support it is anything that would make a difference. GP also didn't really provide an argument for how Gaara counters Daikodan, but KP's argument for Kisame winning is literally just Daikodan landing from a mile away against a Gaara that has had time to grind up a lot of sand - something GP stressed and KP didn't counter properly. KP also mentions Kisame having more stamina, but doesn't really outline how Kisame will actually outlast Gaara.

    Overall I think GP did better and so he gets my vote.
     
  23. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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