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Ninja in Hiruzen's position vs Orochi

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Bonly, May 17, 2018.

  1. Bonly Tailless Tailed Beast

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    Location: Konoha rooftop inside of the sound four's barrier
    Distance: Hiruzen vs Orochi
    Knowledge: Manga
    Restriction: Top tier and above characters

    Match starts off with Orochi using Edo Tensei(part one feats). Who can deal with the Edos and beat Orochi
     
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  2. Shark Ikimasu yo

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    Itachi would low diff.

    Minato would use his contrat seals for Edo Tensei. Orochimaru is a bad match up for him but it was implied he was the only one who could stop him by Anko.

    Jiraiya can't deal with the Edo's immortality and neither can Tsunade.

    Sealing the Edos is the biggest problem here for most shinobi.
     
  3. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Minato defeats ET with contract seal and then defeats Orochimaru 3v1

    Younger Hiruzen forces a draw via Shiki Fujin.

    Danzo wins with Koto

    Those are the weakest characters who win or draw.
     
  4. DaVizWiz ║╝‎‎ ̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿ ‎‎╠╣

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    Most of the shinobi capable have been noted already.

    Itachi is a walking one panel to Oro, and Totsuka is uniquely equip to one panel Edos.

    Minato is a faster, stronger, more skilled version of Hiruzen and he can turn the Edo against Oro.

    Kakashi also has a good chance here. He can warp Oro before the Edo even awaken or at any time during the fight as Oro deliberately stood in the same spot the entire time and didn't once attempt assaulting Hiruzen.

    I'll throw in MS Sasuke because Amaterasu basically defeats Edo indefinitely. The moment they're tagged they're incapacitated for 7 days unless they have ways to get it off them like Nagato.

    The barrier makes it a guaranteed win as he can basically torch the entire roof into a bonfire with Amaterasu and camp in ribcage until Oro is vaporized.

    Entering Susano is all that's needed, however. Neither Edo can even stop his assault on Oro until he can't regenerate any longer and the barrier won't allow him to enter Hydra or utilize his boss summons to compete with it. He basically gets slaughtered over and over until his stamina lets out and the Edo are constantly railroaded by the body of Susano if they're in the path.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  5. oiety So it goes, the Dark - led by it's Monarch

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    Killer Bee.

    V2 Mode is definitely enough speed and power to overwhelm both the resurrected Kages in CQC, and I doubt this Hashirama is more than say, a level superior to Yamato. Definitely a strong "Low Kage", and I doubt his Mokuton would hold down Bee, and nothing this Tobirama has can pierce the cloak, as in this situation if he uses gojo within the barrier all of the characters die-Orochimaru would never allow that. Kusanagi probably won't pierce but I'm wary of scaling that considering the 4 tailed nardo it didn't pierce was also shooting off Bijudamas, which 8 tailed V2 Bee has never shown. But, in any case, Bee is fast enough to follow his sword movements, which are >3T Sasuke's reactions, so he should be able to dodge Kusanagi in base, definitely in V1 and V2. In BM he reacted to Amaterasu, and a few Bijudamas combined with Fūinjutsu: Okutopasu Hōrudo end it all.

    High diff.
     
  6. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    BoS Sakura makes Oro look dumb
     
  7. Matto Chosen One

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    Contrary to popular belief, the Edo Hokage were portrayed as very strong, and I believe above-average within the Kage-class. They were described as "Hokage level," which we know is far above the likes of low-Kage characters.
     
  8. DaVizWiz ║╝‎‎ ̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿ ‎‎╠╣

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    They were producing Jounin scale Ninjutsu (Suitons smaller than Part 1 Kakashi's, Mokuton smaller than Yamato's) and got one paneled by two explosive tags in CQC against unarmed Hiruzen.

    Average Kage produce kage scale Ninjutsu (like Gamayu Endan and Yomi Numa in Part 1) and don't get one paneled by an explosive tag.

    They were not above average kage level, they were Jounin level Edo.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  9. Shark Ikimasu yo

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    Though Kishimoto felt the need to have Tobirama say "this time we're brought back close to our original power" the second time they were summoned in the war :hurr
     
  10. Matto Chosen One

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    The opinion of in-manga characters is better than yours.

    The battle was called "Hokage level" by ninja who obviously know what Jounin level looks like. Even Orochimaru himself called that supposed Jounin-level ninjutsu "expected of a former Hokage."

    They only look Jounin level if we judge their techniques from a Part II lens outside of context and portrayal. That's not the way to go. Just like Hiruzen's techniques got a massive upgrade in Part II, the Edo Hokages' techniques would receive the same if the battle had taken place in Part II.

    He did, yes.

    That just means they were stronger than they were in Part I; it doesn't mean they were low-Kage in Part I, though. The first and second Hokage were both so strong that it's not unreasonable for them to be average or above-average among the Kage class even when not at full power.

    Further, I believe this was Kishi's explanation for making Hashirama the strongest Hokage rather than Hiruzen. He had to explain that somehow.
     
  11. DaVizWiz ║╝‎‎ ̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿ ‎‎╠╣

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    No, Jiraiya's techniques in Part 1 while drugged heavily were the standard for kage level (Gamayu Endan, Yomi Numa).

    Gamabunta's water bullets,Shukaku's Futon Blasts and Kimimaro's Seeding Fern Dance were also standards for it.

    No one in that battle produced Ninjutsu anywhere close to that scale.

    The Kage, if living, would've been defeated by singular explosive tags.

    That is what the author showed us, the title of the chapters or the opinions of the characters are irrelevant if that is what the author is writing into the story.

    Two kage levels being defeated simultaneously by two melee explosive tags by a 68 year old man well out of his prime by the admission of a lifetime partner in combat (Enma) and lifetime student and son figure is simply not possible.

    They were Jounin level Edo, and they got bagged by a kage level Hiruzen appropriately.
     
  12. oiety So it goes, the Dark - led by it's Monarch

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    I think I'd still favor Bee, then. If these two, even as above average Kage, were supposed to be outplayed in CQC by a Hiruzen out of his prime, and would remain that way accounting for Part 2 power inflation, I'd still favor Bee in any scenario against the two of em, considering his taijutsu skills should be handily above any of these versions of them (Hashirama never being renown for his taijutsu, Hiruzen being old and out of shape, and Tobirama not having Hiraishin due to it being part one feats only).
     
  13. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    1: The fight had been going on for several dozen panels at that point.

    2: Hashirama and Tobirama were not knocked down by the explosive tags, instead standing stoically on one leg.
     
  14. Matto Chosen One

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    Again, the characters within the story know better than us. They live within the manga's universe, and they interact with and see first hand the different calibers of shinobi.

    The author highlighted Tobirama's use of Water Release as "expected of a former Hokage." He wrote Hashirama producing a large-scale Wood Release technique that captured Hiruzen, portraying it as fearsome. He wrote Hashirama using one of the manga's strongest (to this day) illusions: Bringer of Darkness. He had outsiders describe the battle as "Hokage level."

    Who cares if Hiruzen blew their legs off with explosive tags. One, that can be chalked up to their lack of personality due to Orochimaru's tags - they were less careful than they might have been if they were alive. That doesn't affect their power. Two, Hiruzen is also really, really good in close combat. He has a 5 in the Databooks in hand-to-hand combat; his close combat skill was emphasized in Databook IV (i.e., saving Naruto from the God Tree); and he also overwhelmed Orochimaru in close quarters, disarming him within mere seconds. And three, Orochimaru didn't notice Hiruzen placing them either.

    Even out of his prime, Hiruzen is still one of the most skilled close combat fighters in the manga.
     
  15. oiety So it goes, the Dark - led by it's Monarch

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    I don't know if I'd agree with the notion of Old Hiruzen being superior to Bee in CQC, if that's what you are implying.
     
  16. Matto Chosen One

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    I'm just saying that it's doesn't reflect poorly on the Edo Hokage or Orochimaru that all three got manhandled in close combat by Hiruzen.

    Often that's brought up as a negative to downplay them. The reality is that it shows just how skilled Hiruzen is, and how dangerous he is up close even to other Kage-level characters.
     
  17. LostSelf Forest Sage

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    With top tiers do you mean from Nagato/Pain and above?

    If that's so, Minato and Itachi should be able to do it.
     
  18. DaVizWiz ║╝‎‎ ̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿ ‎‎╠╣

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    Kakashi's Suiton against Zabuza blew anything Tobirama did out of the water, no pun intended.

    He was a Jounin who was portrayed leaps and bounds beneath Orochimaru in their encounter.

    Kage level Jutsu scale was presented by numerous characters in Part 1 (Jiraiya, Kimimaro, Gamabunta, Shukaku), none of which were in that battle. There wasn't one technique in that battle that transcended Jounin level Jutsu scale.

    Auto Kage level Edo aren't so unaware that they would allow themselves to be tagged and one paneled by an explosive tag. I don't agree with that theory. They're in combat mode and produce it as best they can physically.

    Databook scores are toilet paper as far as I'm concerned, and Hebi Sasuke was granted "god like speed" in his databook entry, when an MS version was overwhelmed in two separate battles by the marquee speedsters of the verse.

    Orochimaru never had special talent in CQC. Everyone he has ever faced has overwhelmed him in that range. He's not slow, but he's no swordsmen, he's no taijutsu specialist, and he's no speedster.

    Without Enma Staff Hiruzen certainly is not one of the most skilled close combat fighters, seeing as he has virtually no features in it. I wouldn't even put him top 25 without that staff, which is exactly when he planted those tags and beat both Kage if they were not Edo.

    What you're implying is those Edo were stronger than characters like Kisame and MS Kakashi - average kage levels.

    That is a dog shit opinion. Even excluding jutsu scale from the equation and Kisame & MS Kakashi alongside each other would never lose a body part to Old Hiruzen without Enma in CQC while simultaneously attacking him.

    Tobirama without FTG, a single weapon, Bunshin, GFK, Edo Tensei or Kage level Suiton is a Jounin level Edo.

    Hashirama without Sage Mode, his Weapons/Jutsu Scroll, Mokuton Bunshin and a single Jounin-scale Nativity of the Trees Mokuton technique is a Jounin level Edo.

    The outrageously terrible features put forth by their bodies (both solo'd by unarmed Hiruzen with two explosion tags, both blitzed and physically restrained by unarmed Bunshin from Hiruzen while he was completely blinded) are merely buffers to the argument that they were not Kage level. Their depleted arsenals and their Jutsu scale was a direct indication itself that they were Jounin level.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  19. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    They lose to Pain and Bee who are the weakest and lose to Tsunade and Itachi who're the Strongest.
     
  20. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow Sanban daihyou taicho Ichimaru Gin

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    Danzo-Izanagi+Koto.
    Itachi-Sealing Edo with Totsuka. Later he will use Amaterasu.
    Minato-FTG+Seals.
    Pain-Shurado and Chikushodo for Edo. Tendo would eventually beat Oro.
     
  21. Godaime Tsunade Well-Known Member

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    Someone with more destructive power than Hiruzen could just smash the roof to break the barrier from below. Then they could call upon their sealing/barrier team to restrain or seal Orochimaru's ET while they fight off Orochimaru, potentially getting support from other Jounin.

    Onoki could weigh the ET down to the point that they're immobile, or weigh the roof down so that it collapses.

    Most Mid Kage can just blow the ground up eg. Kakuzu, Raikage, Kisame, Gai etc.

    Mei could kill two birds with one stone by creating an Acid Mist inside of the barrier that cripples the ET and Orochimaru inside of a confined space where Orochimaru can't blow it away. The Sound 4 would have no option then but to drop the barrier, allowing a sealing team to swoop in and restrain the ET.

    Kotoless Danzou is perhaps the weakest, since he can place paralysis seals on Orochimaru's ET, use Izanagi to get outside of the barrier and then call a backup team to help him deal with Orochimaru.

    If you want to know who is the weakest person who could single-handedly take down the ET and Orochimaru without the need to drop the barrier or kill themselves, I'd say Tobirama since he can actually cancel the ET and then he has a shot at Orochimaru, though it's not guaranteed.

    Minato is likely the only one who can accomplish that, though.
     
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