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Non-SM Hiraishinless Alive Minato vs 3 tomoe Kakashi

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Shark, Aug 9, 2018.

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  1. Minato

    63.2%
  2. Kakashi

    36.8%
  1. PradyumnaR The Village Hidden in the Fucks

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    Don't involve the dogs... They were more useful in part one than a particular member of team 7. Leave the puppers out of this
     
  2. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    Kakashi.

    He has the better speed, better reactions, better reflexes and the better intellect. Praised by the God Of Shinobi. He never praised Minato even though he saw before he left the living world to the after-realm. Raikiri Kunais negate FTG Kunais in the long run, Genjutsu oneshots like it did to ANBU. Raikiri Bunshin oneshots, it oneshotted pain a far greater threat than Minato. It electrifies his body on contact and dislocates his nerve signals akin to like Tsunade dislocating Kabuto's nerve signals through Raiton. Raikiri destroys Rasengan as Chidori was on par with Rasengan multiple times in the manga except the first time it was used. It even penetrated Raikage's Raiton Armoury yet, a Sage Mode Amped Rasengan from Naruto couldn't even tear through the Third Raikage's Raiton Armoury. Earth Wall stops his fanfic "speed blitz" attempts in it's tracks and Kakashi counters with his own version of
    speed blitz through the Lightning Hound appearing him from the sides and attacking him when he doesn't suspect it (distracted by the Earth Wall in front of him) and he'll be electrocuted. He can even trick him of stabbing him with a FTG Kunai by replacing himself with a Raiton Bunshin and he meets his end, then and there.

    Toads are useless because of Genjutsu and Frog Song won't catch him considering he's way too fast for it (pacing with V2 Jinchuuriki and 6th Gated Gai) and other Sage Arts are useless due to his clone trickstery as he could always swap the main body with a clone made of Raiton, and by chance they use thier most common mid to close range attack, that is Tongue Slash, they'll get electrocuted instantly and then he'll proceed to kill them with Lightning Hound whom they nor Minato have shown the speed feats to dodge.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  3. King1 The one true King

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    Those are meaningless in this fight, there is no proof minato is faster than kakashi without FTG, he is superior to kakashi in reaction but the sharingan will compensate kakashi for that. The only thing that can make minato prevail in this fight is gamabunta or frogs, without them this minato is not beating kakashi with sharingan to see all his moves
     
  4. ARGUS The conqueror

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    there is insane amount of evidence

    -- living madara had the shunshin to overwhelm even SM naruto,
    Living madara = Living hashirama < Tobirama < Minato in shunshin
    , so yeah kakaahi gets absolutely hammered in the entire speed department,
    then theres the fact that SM naruto is better than kakashi in the speeed department yet he was overwhelmed by a slower opponents speed, so kakahi is in no way shape or form on the same level as minato in shunshin

    -- sharingan wont compensate jack shit here, we have already seen how the sharingan cant compensate to a certain degree. superior reactions mean superior reactions, sharingan is included in that, yet despite that advantage, akakshi is far below minato, and the opponent with the superior reactions will always triumph and land his blows in an exchange.
    Minato was able to react to V2 Ays full point blank blitz and was able to even physically toss a kunai,
    kakashi on the other hand was nigh blitzed by susanooo arrow so that isnt cuutting it either

    -- uhh, no frogs arent the deal breaker here, they just make it an even easier win for minato here. we have canonically seen kakashi struggle against opponents who are significantly slower, he has piss pooor chakra pools, his strongest offense gets matched,and minato is far above him physically.
    lol sharingan wont mean jackshit when we have seen minato with the reactions to contend with Ay who made an MS user look like a scrub let alone kakashi without MS
     
  5. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    His hair wasn't spiked when he reacted to his blitz which mean he didnt use v2.
     
  6. King1 The one true King

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    How the hell did you come to that conclusion, minato and tobirama were never ever known for their shushin, they were known for there FTG, there is no way in hell minato is superior to madara and hashirama physically so drop this point.
    Irrelevant to the discussion, you have not provided a feat to suggest that minato is superior to kakashi physically, i was even kind to minato to say he is superior to kakashi in reaction speed due to his ability to react to fast oppents with FTG, buh there is NO shushin feat of minato to suggest that he is superior to kakashi, and sharingan plays a vital role here, minato is never going to tag kakashi never, rasengan woulld be matched by rakiri, same rasengan that naruto used and it was matched by sasuke's chidori except you are going to claim that minato's rasengan is superior to naruto's
    Minato never dodged A4 attack physically, he dodged it with FTG, A4 is faster than minato physically, what made minato superior in the speed department was FTG, A4's attack was reacted to by sasuke thanks to his sharingan also, so minato reacted to A4's attack and kakashi can react to A4's attack thanks to his sharingan but both of them can't dodge his attack physically, minato can dodge due to FTG, but kakashi can't.
     
  7. ARGUS The conqueror

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    he specifically said hell come at him full speed
    the reason why his hair wanst spiked was cus of thhe head band
     
  8. Android Laughing at all these Idiots.

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  9. ARGUS The conqueror

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    :giogio
    you havnt read the manga clearly
    when the hokages arrived at the battlefield for the war, they were using shunshin
    minato arrived before all of them, and tobiraama specifically acknowledged him on that and his shunshin being faster than every other hokages,

    then there is also the fact that madara called tobirama the fastest shinobi of his era, after thier shunshin exchange in CQC
    so no,
    minato > tobirama > madara and hashirama
    madara and hashriama were never as fast as those two in shunshin and this has been highlighted in many instances

    @Bold - :giogio
    there is so much wrong with this post
    1. Reaction comes with how quickly your mind percieves things. FTG has got nothing to do with reacting to opponents. Minato reacting to Ay means that he can always react to his fastest speeds. FTG was the evasion method, not the reaction ability. FTG can only be used if the individual is actually fast enough to percieve the speeds at first

    2. Minatos shunshin feat was already shown when he arrived at the battlefield faster than tobirama and hashirama, who are both significantly above the likes of kakashi in speed.

    3. Lol at minato never tagging the likes of kakashi, he tagged the exponentially faster Ay, what on earth makes you think that scrubs like akakshi wont be tagged?:giogio
    these are wall of fail worthy posts


    -- never talked about minato dodging, i talked about reacting to V2 Ay. No reaction = no use of FTG. try to get that through your head

    -- Lol kakashi is never ever reacting to V2 Ay, ''lol sharingan'' doesnt do shit, when we have canonically seen MS sasuke get blitzed by V2 Ay. MS sasuke was matching kakashi while he was pretty much blind, so the idea that minato is not even tagging this scrub is laughable at best.
    he schools him
     
  10. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    Minato>Tobirama=Hashirama=Hiruzen in shunshin, but not known to what degree/
    Alive Rinnegan (he had no rinnegan at that time, but had an access to its abilities, such as Preta and likely Ningendo) Madara kicked a worn out SM Naruto, but Naruto blocked the kick.
    Ay attacked Minato in V1 first so that it would be easier to change his direction after Minato teleports to kunai and hit with full speed in V2.
    Kakashi's base speed was equal to Gai's and his full speed was probably equal to 5 Gated Gai's.
    Half-blind Kakashi reacted to Rasengan thrown by Juubidara and Danzo fight Kakashi reacted to 2 Susanoo Arrows, one of which he kamui'd and the other one he dodged.
    Kakashi was called fast by Obito.
     
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  11. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    It's just my opinion but I find it idiotic to think Minato, praised by many as a rare genius, as someone whose arsenal is restricted to KB and Rasengan outside of Hiraishin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  12. JiraiyaFlash Satô no Kyoki

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    Your post full with nonsensical self-made up portrayals and misdirected accusations. Its so bad.
     
  13. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    Please dissect it then. You say this because you know no way Minato is even winning this.
     
  14. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    Youve to look at portrayal. Against Sasuke we saw a gigantic aura covering him and ridiculous flashing around and hair spiking to the maximum. But against Minato you dont see any of that. The headband thing doesnt overshadow the portrayal granted to v2 cloak. The chakra would've pushed out the band from his head. We even see strong chakra releases like Tobirama's can break solid stone. Raiton Chakra of such force as Ay's should not be any different.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  15. Hasan Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, Minato isn't stomping or 'speedblitzing' anyone noteworthy with or without Hiraishin. Zetsu (a non-fighter) intercepted his 'unperceivable' movements twice; Shinjū stole his chakra, while lesser characters seemed to do just fine. A young Killer Bee intercepted Hiraishin, and Raikage saw through it as well (and then they went on to fight multiple times). He barely won against Obito. In each case, the theme is consistent: Minato's trouble begins with any named character worth his or her salt. This, of course, doesn't mean that he loses (just because Zetsu intercepted him) but the notion that his movements are unperceivable (by non-Rikudō characters) is a fantasy in minds of his supporters only. The only character he has stomped is Mahiru, which was (interestingly) paralleled with Kakashi killing Kakkō with the mimicking-Yellow-Flash speed.

    Secondly, it's consistently pointed out how good Kakashi really is, especially his mastery of dōjutsu (and people here were seemingly surprised at Sasuke saying that he could tackle his Rinnegan). Both Obito and Madara did. Later on, Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara thought that Kakashi could buy time for Obito (to perform the jump to Timespace). As far as portrayal is concerned, Kakashi is least likely to get stomped by any character, even if he should lose. The idea that Kakashi is a dangerous fighter who must taken seriously, and prompts caution on part of his opponents is consistent.

    → Minato isn't beating Kakashi easily, if at all he wins. With our without Hiraishin.

    Thirdly, Kakashi has arguably the best reflexes from amongst the non-Rikudō characters. Him outspeeding Obito, whilst the latter was specifically focused on him; warping the Hachibi just before the Jūbi's beam hit it; the Mazō's arm, and finally the Sage Rasengan that Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara redirected at him — are all feats of insane-reflexes and certainly more commendable than Minato's against Raikage and Obito. Also noteworthy is Kakashi being able to make 3 moves as Kaguya cast Amenominaka.

    Fourthly, Kakashi himself is fast as adult Obito would attest (during their meeting in Iron Country). He instantly took out Kakuzu's heart; nearly took out Shuradō twice (one failed due to the Rinnegan's shared vision and second one, interrupted by the Akimichi's entrance); sliced through the 'clowns' (the jinchūriki paths)... Him being extremely fast is an old story, since Raikiri's effectiveness depends on the speed of his thrust... Minato hasn't shown anything respectable in the physical speed department, outside of him saving Naruto (which Obito staged by the way)... or at least not to an extent that would bother someone like Kakashi. Minato is further at disadvantage due to Kakashi reading his movements (Sharingan precognition).

    → Kakashi's reflexes are better as is his physical speed. Minato hasn't shown any dependable non-Hiraishin speed to warrant that Kakashi would be bothered by it. Even Kakashi's handseal formation is noted to be inhumanly fast.

    Fifthly, no-Hiraishin is a much more severe degradation than no-Kamui. Hiraishin is central to Minato's style, while Kamui isn't to Kakashi's. Shinjū nearly killed Naruto, and what was the reason given for Minato's lack of any activity? Yes, he couldn't use Hiraishin. This, of course, isn't to say that Minato has practically nothing beside that, but the lack of Hiraishin hinders him considerably that it's hard to argue for his efficiency without it—and his adaptability. Techniques like Food Cart Destroyer and Shiki Fūjin are circumstantial, and play no active role in how he fights. Kakashi has no issues, even if he should lose Kamui.

    Sixthly, Food Cart Destroyer isn't going to work because: (1) evasion is a thing for one, and Kakashi is fast enough to evade before the toad lands on the ground. (2) Kakashi typically fights in close quarters. Dropping a toad on Kakashi means dropping a toad on one-self; Bunta is gigantic, after all. (3) Gigantic summons rarely, if ever, find place in such battles since they are an unfeasible option. Tendō was easily able to maneuver in between, and he isn't even known for speed.

    → Kakashi's fallback style is refined, while Minato without Hiraishin is going to struggle. Kakashi without Kamui can fight on higher-level than Minato can without Hiraishin.

    Kakashi wins this.

    Hiraishin has been referred to as Shunshin multiple times — that was Hiraishin.

    EDIT: Here [ ], Tobirama once again refers to Hiraishin as Shunshin no Jutsu; I checked the raw as well. Raikage and that fodder guy who identified Minato also referred to it as Shunshin; as did Rin in the Kakashi Gaiden.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  16. Shark Ikimasu yo

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    But there is no indication that he has access to those techniques, iirc not even the DB gives it to him.

    Hiraishin is more than sufficient to fully or almost fully cover his portrayal.
     
  17. Isaiah13000 The Snake that slithered over the Moon

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    Man, I thought 3T Kakashi getting wanked against Tsunade was bad enough, but now I see he's getting wanked here too. What is up with all this wank lately? 3T Kakashi is nothing more than low Kage tier at best, not sure why he's viewed so highly by some people.
    Still, we don't even know if he learned how to use them. He isn't even listed as a user of any of those Jutsu in the databooks.
     
  18. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    You haven't made a counter to any of Kakashi's supporters arguments but still it's "wank". Cool story.
     
  19. Isaiah13000 The Snake that slithered over the Moon

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    If you actually read my posts you'd see I was in the process of debating with one Kakashi supporter already. I'm just waiting for them to reply.
     
  20. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    though Tobirama commenting Minato's teleportation even better than his is little awkward, talking in regards Shunshin seems to be more logical.
    Minato came there first and Hiruzen comments on how fast Minato is.
    Hokages were ET, so they wouldn't worry about saving chakra and I don't see anything else that would hinder them from using their full shunshin.
    Anyways, whether Tobirama was comming on Minato teleporting Juubi TBB or his shunshin, Minato's shunshin being somewhat better than that of other three Hokages' who are each other's equal at that is still a thing.
     
  21. Crimson Flam3s Rampage Sage

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    Where are Minato's amazing Hiraishinless speed feats that will make Kakashi shit his pants? Anyone posted them yet?
     
  22. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    you won't ever see them, besides the one I mentioned. Instead they will feed you with how Minato was called fast by Obito or with some dubious comparisons between other characters and Yellow Flash.
     
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  23. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    1- Crossing Konoha in an instant and dropping Gamapunta on top of Kurama
    2- Saving Naruto from Obito's stab
    3- Teleporting to Kushina and then Shunshining away to the tree
    4- Outspeeding the rest of the Hokage to the battlefield
    5- getting the Kunais around the Juubi without anyone noticing him.

    Where are Kakashi's feats? :maybe
     
  24. Hasan Well-Known Member

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    Since the comparison is strictly between the two of them, Hiraishin (being common-link) makes more sense. It's based on this comment, does the databook state that Minato improved upon Hiraishin. Hashirama and Hiruzen arriving at the same time as Tobirama doesn't exactly help Tobirama making his case.

    Are Minato-supporters using the variant of "Because Hashirama" argument — the very argument, they vehemently oppose? :hurr
     
  25. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    FTG needs a marking to be used. The Kunai did not fly itself to the battlefield, now did it? :zaru
    Tobirama was talking about Shunshin (physical speed)
     
  26. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    the databook does not cover the jutsu that were covered in a previous databook. Most of those jutsu that the guy listed were covered in databook 1 and 2 for example. Before Minato even appeared as a character. :catshrug

    I am not saying that "Minato must have those jutsu" but rather just pointing out this point... :catshrug
     
  27. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    In terms of reactions :
    -Minato could before GudoDama speed whist 3T Kakashi .
    -Minato could , a feat that's completly out of Kakashi's range giving even MS Sasuke couldn't keep track on the Raikage.
    -Whilst Kakashi could use Kamui point blank at the very last moment before being blitzed by Rasengan (his clothes were ), Minato managed to before Kamui is completed. By the way, JJ Mads throwing speed at ain't any faster than which in turn is slower than whose "base" Minato can "physically" react just fine. Kakashi only barely reacted to JJ Mad's "long ranged" throwing speed.
    In other words, Minato's reactions are notably above 3T War Kakashi's, which makes a lot of sens giving the fourth hype.

    Long range JJ Mad's shot <= 3T Kakashi's physical reaction speed < short range JJ Mad's shot < Kamui warp speed < long range GudoDama shot < V2 Ei max Shunshin <= Minato's physical reaction speed
    That's fore sure.

    Really don't see, how Kakashi's reaction speed is on par or even above Minato's.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  28. Hasan Well-Known Member

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    Do markings need to be explicitly shown? No. Tobirama refers to Hiraishin as Shunshin on another occasion as well.
     
  29. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    WTF? :lmao

    Ok, let's say they don't need to be "explicitly shown", how did they get there in the first place? :lmao
    Surely you don't think Minato said "I wish my mark appear on the battlefield" and the mark just magically created itself there?

    And how about the Kunai in the middle of the sea that he used to teleport the Juubi's TBB?
    Did it also "magically" appeared there on its own? :kobe
     
  30. Architect of the Works of Beauty

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    Kay.
    But it doesn't really affect what I stated before, right?
     
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