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Orochimaru vs Gengetsu

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by JuicyG, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. JuicyG Well-Known Member

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    Generally speaking..

    1. Who has more hype?
    2. Who is higher on the tier list
    3. Who wins the fight?
     
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  2. Maverick04 Out of touch

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    Orochimaru

    With Edo Summons : Orochimaru
    Without Edo Summons : On the same level

    Orochimaru coz Gengetsu has no way to put him down for good..And two of them being on the same level means Orochimaru has an advantage over Gengetsu when it comes to durabiltiy
     
  3. Android 3:16

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    1. Orochimaru has better hype.

    2. Orochimaru, with or without ET.

    3. Orochimaru would win. Mainly because Gengetsu can't kill him and the fact that Snakes thermal vision would locate the clam thus making a huge part of Gengetsu's power useless.
     
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  4. Gin Ichimaru's Shadow Sanbantai taicho Ichimaru Gin

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    1.Orochimaru.

    2.I would put Orochimaru, due to having ET and Immortality. Those Jutsu make him almost unbeatable(bar semi-god and god tiers).
    3.Probably Oro. He could troll Gengetsu by faking his death(vomiting body after finding opening) or use Yamata no Orochi right off the bat. I don't see Gengetsu handle it.
     
  5. Sage light Well-Known Member

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    Orochimaru, in all, likely I'd state.

    Genjutsu could potentially be countered by the varying sources of Chakra, available, due to several Curse Mark wielders, in the world, likely, linked to the body, of Orochimaru.

    He could see through them, so I don't see why not use them as a form of Partner Method.

    Oral-Rebirth/1000 Snakes, take care of Joki-Boy, likely.
     
  6. Alita54 Alita>You

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    Oro is only above gengetsu with ET. Otherwise I'd give the fight to gengetsu. He more or less stalemated someone who I view as easily above oro without ET. Joki Boi spam can eventually wear him down and most of oro's arsenal won't be effective on someone made out of water.
     
  7. Bonly Keyblade Master

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    Orochi has been given more hype and better portrayal of the two, Orochi is higher up on the tier list and Orochi would win in a fight more times then not he knows and can counter what the French Dude throws at him and Orochi is able to overwhelm without to many problems
     
  8. Shark Well-Known Member

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    Gengetsu has impressive portrayal, likely being portrayed as above Onoki. So it's a toss up.
     
  9. Gianfi Well-Known Member

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    Overall I think Gengetsu is stronger, but Orochi May troll him with his regen. I don’t think Gengetsu can put him down for good. Orochi High/extreme
     
  10. savior2005 Well-Known Member

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    Orochimaru in all 3, with or without ET. He's an extremely strong shinobi who would have been fourth hokage if he didn't do bad things. Ppl downplay him due to his losses against Itachi, but those losses mostly come from badly underestimating Itachi. Plus, Itachi is a one hit kill kind of guy and is a terrible matchup for Orochimaru.
    Otherwise, Orochimaru is basically gimped in every fight he's been in.
     
  11. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    Gengetsu wins that match up with around high difficulty in my opinion. There aren't techniques from both characters that I don't see those characters not being able to dodge as both characters are amazing at hiding and are both intelligent characters. Gengetsu arguably is of a higher rank because of basically toying with above average Kage ranking characters. So if it is a match up of stamina then Gengetsu has an edge in that match up.
     
  12. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    I don’t agree with Orochimaru without ET portrayed above Gengetsu. Gengetsu is portrayed as equal to Mu, and strong enough that Gaara, tired Onoki, and hundreds of fodder have a hard time beating him even while he warns them of his attacks. Mu meanwhile is portrayed as strong enough to beat Onoki and require Onoki/Dat Clone/Gaara to beat.

    Mu/Gengetsu are probably close, but if anything slightly above Orochimaru (unless his Zetsu body conferred unstated short term benefits like more chakra than before).
     
  13. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Gaara, too-tired-to-Jinton Ohnoki, and (not) hundreds of fodder wouldn't beat Orochimaru in the first place.

    By virtue of having unlimited stamina versus Ohnoki's old man reserves.
     
  14. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    I think that would be an evenly matched fight.

    Mu’s chakrs regeneration was never cited as a reason for his performance. Onoki’s age related issues were.
     
  15. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    This would still take your point away from Gengetsu because the Mizukage actually lost that fight.

    That's all that needs to be said. What position that puts Mū in would be obvious because we already know reanimated ninja don't have such problems.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  16. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    I was talking under the presumption that Orochimaru was serious. If he is cooperating as Gengetsu was, I believe he would lose to Gaara, tired Onoki, and the army.

    We have no reason to believe that Mu has a bad back, which was GG for Onoki regardless of Edo status, unless you believe Old Onoki can outlast Mu while using a more taxing style involving many clones and not aggravating his back.
     
  17. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Gengetsu was just giving hints, and he eventually stopped doing that too. What is Orochimaru supposed to say that would turn the tide of a fight with him? He would beat Gaara, that Ohnoki, and a bunch of fodder regardless of them knowing how he fights.

    Elemental clones are not taxing like shadow clones. Ohnoki's back problems should also not be a thing in the battledome because they stopped being a thing in the manga. He endured much worse against Madara without it becoming an issue- he took actual hits, unlike he did against Mū.

    The point is, the deciding factor was how long they could keep it up as they were fighting on par up until that point.

    Speaking of things we have no reason to believe, though, we have no reason to believe that Mū's stamina was anything particularly special when alive. Who is going to beat Ohnoki by outlasting that shouldn't be able to do the same to Mū?
     
  18. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    “Manda is about to come up behind you”

    “Look out, my body can still attack when cut in half”

    “I’m using (fill in blank element)”

    “Fall back, my poisons are spreading”


    The only thing I remember being said is that Mizu Bunshin require 10% of the users normal chakra. That would take a huge amount of clones to make as many as Onoki made.

    Are you suggesting his back condition was retconned?

    In order for Onoki to outlast or last as long as Mu, we need to assume that Onoki has substantially more chakra than Mu as an old man to constantly divide his chakra with clones, we need to ignore his back, and we need to assume that the canon fights outcome was due to Mu’s Edo status and consequently ignore it.
     
  19. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Manda is fast so it’s not like most of them could dodge it anyway. What if Orochimaru stays on Manda as it dives underground like Gengetsu stayed on his clam? He couldn’t warn the alliance then. Large enough summons have proven to be too much for waves of fodder both times Konoha was invaded.

    That doesn’t give them the means to stop him. It’s not like saying that would suddenly make cutting him in half work. It just tells them not to expect their standard lot of attacks to do anything. Gaara can try to seal him, but if Orochimaru’s caught he could summon, shed, or transform to escape.

    They can see this themselves, so it makes no difference.

    If Orochimaru’s resorted to his true form or Yamata then he’s probably not helping them just like Gengetsu stopped once Jōki Bōi came out. They have no way to actually stop it even if he does try to talk them through it. It's too strong to be restrained and too tanky for the sort of attacks the allied fodder were throwing out to work.

    It was said that the clones possess 10% of the user’s power, not that they take up 10% of the user’s Chakra.

    I don’t like the word “retconned”, but something had to have happened. Maybe Tsunade fixed it when she showed up or something. It obviously didn't remain an issue or it would have flared up when he tried to stop a meteor, lightened and then weighted Raikage, got smacked into the ground by Susano’o, or when he got sent flying by the updraft Perfect Susano’o caused.

    How does this answer the question of “who is going to beat Ohnoki by outlasting that shouldn’t be able to do the same to Mū”?
     
  20. Shazam Well-Known Member

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    I see some good points on both sides. Holding out for my reply
     
  21. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    Orochimaru, but he had more time for it.
    About the same until part 2 EdoTensei comes into play.
    Orochimaru floods the battle field with snakes until he finds Gengetsu and poisons him.
     
  22. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    The fodder can’t dodge it, but even Manda can’t hit all of them and being warned even a second in advance could enable more of them to escape. It also creates more time for Gaara or Onoki to potentially do something relevant. If Orochimaru goes underground then he cannot warn them, but this also enables the army/Gaara/Onoki to focus on one less target if Manda and Orochimaru attack together.

    Alerting them would prevent them from dropping their guard, which can save lives. We know that Rasa, who is weaker than Gaara, could defeat a tailed beast with his sand. If Gaara has enough sand and enough support, even Orochimaru could eventually be sealed.

    I think it makes a difference. This would alert them a second earlier which improves their ability to respond with the proper element or ability to counter.

    Again, Rasa could stop a tailed beast so I don’t think Gaara is logistically incapable of defeating Yamata with sand. But he needs backup and knowledge, which Onoki and the army can provide. Onoki’s weight manipulation would potentially leave Yamata immobilized for Gaara to grind up sand on the scale Rasa defeated Shukaku with.

    I none the less think a hypothetical Edo Orochimaru has higher odds than I was initially thinking and now view it as 50/50. I hadn’t considered the implications of Edo Yamata’s regen.

    My mistake. I still don’t believe that it is a low chakra cost to create five Doton Clones, based on what we know of clones. I would think that requires more chakra than Mu’s invisibility based on the way clones are typically portrayed and no known downside for Mu’s invisibility ever pointed out.

    I would assume it is a combination of things.

    1: He had a medic with him.

    2: His will power improved which helps with the pain somewhat.

    3: Simple luck. Physical feats are always inconsistent and Onoki simply had better luck against Madara and worse against his foes when his back gave out.

    But none of this changes the fact that he was actually going to die against Mu as I said before.

    Potentially a lot of foes some of the time. Old Onoki having back issues and probably less chakra as an old man can cause him to lose matches to almost anyone he doesn’t have a big edge over. Fixing his back and giving him more chakra is likely the difference between being 50/50 against some opponents vs 30/70. Prolonged fights increase the odds of him getting gassed or having his back give out, while going into overdrive to finish opponents quickly with a more aggressive approach will increase the strain on his body and increase the odds of his back getting hurt or running out of chakra.
     
  23. Orochimaruwantsyourbody Well-Known Member

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    Say that I’m right and start a quote war with @FlamingRain
     
  24. Matto Chosen One

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    Orochimaru has better portrayal than Gengetsu, in my opinion.

    He was the favorite to win the Hokage position before acquiring his White Snake Powers, only losing out to Minato because of his twisted ideals. He, along with the rest of the Sannin, were stated in the DB to be the strongest of their generation.

    He was the big bad in Part 1 and was portrayed as almost unbeatable. His gross superiority over run-of-the-mill Akatsuki was suggested more than once. He casually off-paneled one of the resurrected Five Kage - Rasa - and killed the strongest of the Five Kage: Hiruzen.

    He obtained immortality, even coming back from being sealed within the Totsuka. In fact, he's been portrayed as nearly un-killable, with his life only ever threatened by a Tailed Beast Bomb, the Reaper Death Seal, and the Totsuka.

    Not only did he basically come back to life (with the help of Sasuke), but he got his arms back from the Death God. This was believed to be impossible; indeed, it stunned both Minato and Hiruzen. He was even praised by the God of Shinobi for binding Tobirama with ET.

    In terms of a one on one fight, Orochimaru should win with moderate to moderately-high difficulty at most. His snake summons can sense heat, countering Gengetsu's Clam Mirage. Once located, he has his snakes crush the clam or destroys it with an extending-Kusanagi. He can block Joki Boi's steam explosions with snake summons or Rashoumon, or just outright tank them. His snakes hold off Joki Boi while Orochimaru takes on Gengetsu, or vice-versa. And Gengetsu's water body obviously is no issue because a) Orochimaru can use Lightning Release and b) Suigetsu is downright terrified of Orochimaru, so we can surmise that a water body is not a problem for Orochimaru.

    Orochimaru wouldn't need to use his White Snake Form or his Eight-Headed Serpent Technique. He can overcome Gengetsu with his snake summons, ordinary ninjutsu, and the Kusanagi.
     
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