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Orochimaru vs Jiraya

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Total warrior, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    How so?

    Yes there is, Jiraiya was portrayed as the only Sannin capable of achieving Sage Mode a power noted to far surpass Ninjutsu whilst greatly increasing the level of all of his regular Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu. Orochimaru wanted the power of Senjutsu but was unable to achieve it due to not having a body strong enough to achieve it while Jiraiya on the other hand did. Sage Mode is the pinnacle of each of the Sannin's respective animal art and only one of them was able to achieve that power, and the main reason Kabuto believed he surpassed Orochimaru was due to him achieving Sage Mode. Jiraiya in Sage Mode is also not merely Jiraiya in Sage Mode but it is Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima all in Sage Mode acting as a trinity with incredible synergy on top of being able to summon Gamabunta, Gamaken, and Gamahiro. Nothing in Orochimaru nor Tsunade's arsenal is as great as that, they're both much weaker than Jiraiya is at his absolute strongest (excluding Orochimaru's Edo Tensei) of course. Jiraiya was also the only Sannin portrayed as powerful enough to stand up to the "invincible", "unbeatable", "undefeated", almighty Six Paths of Pain and could've defeated them. I feel like all of this "they're equal" talk is merely a means of trying to portray Itachi as Jiraiya's superior because if Itachi > Orochimaru and Orochimaru > Jiraiya then Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya which is flawed and incorrect logic as Jiraiya has already been portrayed as Itachi's "equal" with him being the stronger of the two whether you like it or not. The deadlock was only relevant in Part 1 when Sage Mode didn't exist back then, the instant Jiraiya obtain that he broke the deadlock. It would only continue if Orochimaru obtained it himself.
     
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  2. Veracity More Life

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  3. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    I have heard this argument plenty of times and I have never been swayed by this. Let's take a step back and realize that both Sage Mode and Hydra are the pinnacle of their respective arts. Hydra is implicitly said to take shape of the snake's most eminent power available by taking shape of a "dragon", something that had been inferred to be stronger than anything conceivable through Kabuto. Furthermore, while both are the pinnacle of their respective arts, they have not mastered it and left it up for their disciple to accomplish something that they couldn't.

    You're correct, Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru through Sage Mode, but extrapolating this to Jiraiya is superficial. Jiraiya has not mastered it, he is placed under a very similar predicament as Orochimaru is, and both have received special abilities of some sorts that transcends the boundaries of their respective art.

    Had Jiraiya perfected Sage Mode, then I'd be in agreement. Unfortunately, he didn't. Hydra isn't Sage Mode, but nowhere is it mentioned that Sage Mode is the pinnacle of a snake. In all actuality, it is inferred that being a Dragon transcends the boundaries of Snakes and Perfect Sage Mode happens to truly bring this to fruition in a way that Hydra cannot. Imperfect Sage Mode for Orochimaru would not accomplish this, it is said that only perfecting it gives shape to a dragon and quite frankly, Jiraiya's diluted Sage Mode wouldn't do that.
     
  4. Go D. Usopp Straw Hats Wanker

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    How stronger is war orochimaru compared to early shippuden one really :geg
     
  5. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    @Veracity (Your post is messed up so I can't quote it) How do you know Kishimoto had Sage Mode in mind since Part 1? Also even if he did, how does this change the fact that Jiraiya didn't use Sage Mode at all in Part 1 and Sage Mode is the reason Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru? Or how strong Jiraiya was portrayed overall in comparison to Orochimaru and Tsunade? Neither of those two have been depicted being able to stand up to Itachi and Pain, Jiraiya has, so I'm not understanding how that mere deadlock means they're equal. Also yes Jiraiya does, Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant is superior to anything in Orochimaru and Tsunade's arsenal. Edo Tensei also doesn't count, since that isn't apart of Orochimaru's own power and must be prepared beforehand. The synergy between Jiraiya, Fukasaku, ad Shima is a greater threat than anything Orochimaru or Tsunade can pull off.

    That is pure databook hyperbole and nothing more, in the end the Eight Branches Technique AKA Yamata no Orochi is a Ninjutsu. It is not Senjutsu at all, it is clearly much weaker than Sage Mode which is what enabled Kabuto to surpass Orochimaru and challenge Edo MS Itachi and EMS Sasuke. It's not the pinnacle of the snake arts whatsoever, Sage Mode is, which Orochimaru cannot use, and even though Jiraiya's Sage Mode is not perfect it is still portrayed as much greater than anything Orochimaru has to offer.

    No he isn't. Orochimaru was completely unable to achieve Sage Mode and had to rely on inhumane experimentation to even slightly replicate the power of Senjutsu and even he could not invoke the power of the Cursed Seals himself. This vast difference between Jiraiya's Sage Mode and the Sage Mode that Kabuto has used is nonexistent, in the end Jiraiya can still actually use Sage Mode, as well as Frog Kata, and can employ Senjutsu effectively in combat regardless of the inferiority of his Sage Mode.

    :giogio Mount Myoboku, Ryuchi Cave, and Shikkotsu Forest are known as the "Three Great Sage Regions" in the Fourth Databook for a reason. The known rulers of Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave are both referred to as "Sages" with the White Snake Sage being confirmed to have taught Kabuto his Sage Mode meaning he is an actual Sage so it isn't just a title like it is for Son Goku (implying the same for Gamamaru and whoever is in charge of the Shikkotsu Forest), and their known strongest inhabitants can use Sage Mode. Sage Mode is clearly portrayed as the pinnacle of the toad, snake, and slug. Your argument almost entirely revolves around how Orochimaru's Hydra is on par with or even superior to imperfect Sage Mode which is baseless, you're putting way too much stock into unsubstantiated databook hyperbole. Like I said above, in the end regardless of what the databook says regarding the Hydra it is Ninjutsu, not Senjutsu, which is a power that far surpasses Ninjutsu, and increases the power of the main three jutsu types significantly. The Eight Branches Technique is still inferior to Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode, which has not been depicted as being significantly weaker than any other Sage Mode we have been presented: that is a fan-made fabrication. Jiraiya still mastered his variant of Sage Mode, and can use Frog Kata which revolves around mastering Sage Mode, whilst Orochimaru cannot employ any Senjutsu in combat and can only imbue people with a small portion of it's power based on Jugo's vastly inferior Sage Transformation. There is no legitimate argument you can make to portray the Eight Branches Technique as something on par with or even greater than imperfect Sage Mode. Especially considering the former got defeated by a Mangekyo wielder, while the latter was portrayed as being able to defeat a much stronger Rinnegan wielder.
     
  6. Sapherosth One post man

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    Naruto also "surpassed" Jiraiya AND Minato when he first achieved SM. Does it mean he's stronger?

    Kabuto is stronger than Oro not just because of SM, but because of all the other abilities that he's attained overall, including Oro's powers himself.


    Learn to differentiate them.
     
  7. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    That statement contradicts with other statements and feats, so it's wrong regardless.

    How does this change the fact that the main reason he surpassed Orochimaru was because he obtained Sage Mode.
     
  8. Veracity More Life

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    That'll have to be out on hold for the moment. It came up in a thread a long time ago. @FlamingRain pointed it out. I'll have to hit him up for it.

    Jirayia not showing Sage Mode in Part 1 is irrelevant. When Kishi created the equality among the Sannin he clearly had Sage Mode in mind.

    ?? Kabuto not only mastered Sage Mode( unlike Jirayia) but he went on to enhance it with abilities from Jugo, Karin and Suigetsu. Then went further to enhance his shit even more with all of the sound fours abilities. Kabuto can not be equated to Jirayia as the former is on a much higher tier.

    I don't buy in to Jirayia being able to beat Itachi at all. I believe Itachi's power was retconned to be greater in Part 2, while he was only about equal to a Sannin in Part 1. Tsuande was actually mad that Kakashi lost out to Kisame and Itachi in Part 1 viewing them as almost non-factors. In Part 2? Different story. Pretty sure we're gonna have to agree to disagree here though

    I see Byakago Tsuande with Katsuyu retcon and Oro with Part 1 Edo beating the 3 Paths of Pain. That's actually an opinion I have held on to for awhile now; I think the 3 intial paths are over hyped.

    Most people in the DB kinda just believe that Oro has Edo prepped before battle, kinda why Edo has to restricted in many battles. Frog Song is nice and all but not many consider the fact that Tsuande can summon a portion of Katsuyu like Kyuubi sized with enough chakra... that's pretty crazy.
     
  9. Sapherosth One post man

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    Contradicts with what? It's been outright stated that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato in SM.

    No different than Kabuto surpassing Orochimaru by achieving SM.
     
  10. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    Do you have a source for this? Also even if he did, has does this change the fact that Jiraiya didn't use it in their fight whatsoever?

    I'm aware of that, but the main reason Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru is due to Sage Mode. Kabuto said that himself, he said nothing about the rest. The powers of the Sound Five and Taka are largely irrelevant since that is not why Kabuto believed he surpassed Orochimaru. Kabuto having perfected Sage Mode and Jiraiya having not perfected it is also irrelevant, because the series doesn't portray any type of vast difference between the two.

    No amount of hype nor feats that Itachi has in Part 2 places him above Jiraiya who has the hype and feats that enable him to beat the Six Paths of Pain and has War Arc Obito worried about him being reincarnated.

    I believe they can as well, but the fact is Jiraiya could've defeated them even easier had it not been for Kishi having not fully fleshed out SM and all of Fukasaku and Shima's techniques then. This also doesn't change the fact that Nagato said that Jiraiya could've defeated the Six Paths of Pain if he knew their secret. By hype and feats both Orochimaru and Tsunade were never portrayed as being able to stand up to Pain, and both of them lack Sage Mode, the pinnacle of their animal art which Jiraiya is the only one who has achieved it. At no point in this series was Orochimaru and Tsunade even at their strongest granted that level of portrayal.

    I mean we don't know if she could summon Katsuyu to be that big even with the retcon regarding Katsuyu. Even if she could, that doesn't put her on par with Jiraiya since Fukasaku and Shima's song can wipe out entire armies.

    It contradicts the fact that by hype and feats Jiraiya is still slightly above that incarnation of Naruto, and Minato is obviously much stronger than that version of Naruto. But I honestly don't feel like arguing this with you.

    Yes it is, because there is nothing that contradicts this statement. Whilst it can be argued that Jiraiya is still superior to Naruto, and Minato is undoubtedly superior to Naruto at that point. The statement is literally wrong, Naruto didn't start to even approach Minato's level until he got NTCM. That was made painfully clear in the War Arc.
     
  11. Veracity More Life

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    I'll find the link I have to get it from FR lol. Because the concept of the Sannin being equal was still carried on despite Jirayia having SM? That's the reason. In Part 1 Tsuande also didn't have Byakago or Katsuyu retcon.

    So are you going to tell me you take every statement at 1000% face value with no room for interpretation? That's kinda not how I'm gonna go about this debate and if that's the blunt of your argument then we can agree to disagree right now. Kabuto doesn't just have Sage Mode. You can't deny that. He has an enhanced version of Sage Mode and would not have attained such a high status without going through further experiments to increase his ability. If Kabuto attained the same level of Sage Mode as Jirayia did then we would be tiers lowers then what he was in the manga.

    Jirayia, the elder toads, and the manga both made huge deals about the fact that Naruto had mastered Sage Mode you can't just deny that. It's also hypocritical to ignore the elder sages outright stating Naruto as superior to Jirayia, but take Kabuto saying Sage Mode> Oro as the be-all-end-all statement.

    Itachi was blatantly perceived as Oro's superior like let's be serious here. Oro wanted to capture Itachi but failed at every possible corner, and Oro is perceived as Jirayia's counterpart and equal throughout the manga.

    Jirayia would have never beat Pain in any way or form and knowledge doesn't change that. He only beat the first intial three because they had a lack of knowledge on Frog Song and the location benefitted Jirayia the best. Pain without killing intent and while on cool down for a great portion of the fight, beat Perfect Sage Naruto with the elder sages and Gama trio pre-summoned with vast amounts of knowlgee and help from Hinata. Jirayia is never ever beating Pain. Not even close.

    At the time of the Pain Arc, Tsunade didn't have Byakago or Katsuyu retcon and was waiting on Naruto( Jirayia's superior) to defeat Pain. She was never granted Pain beating Hype because she or Jirayia or Oro can't beat Pain. Pain giving Jirayia that Hype was out of respect. Statements can be taken into context and interpretation, which is what you've done about Naruto being superior to Jirayia.

    I honestly think Sage Mode is being gassed up here. Not only did Jirayia not perfect it, but Byakago/Katsuyu- Hydra/Edo make up for it in my opinion. I don't view Jirayia on a different pedestal at all .

    Tsunade can summon larger portions of Katsuyu than she has in canon and it's literally contingent upon chakra. Tsuande while unable to even activate Byakago could summon a boss size Katsuyu. Fresh Tsuande summoning a Kyuubi sized Katsuyu is actually logical. And Frog Song needs to prepped to use. I think he can peg Tsuande with it but I think Oro with Part 1 Edo kills Jirayia before he can use it.
     
  12. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    It didn't carry on in Part 2 though as Jiraiya broke it with SM.

    I'm not taking anything at face value. I always pay attention to the context behind hype and feats, and Kabuto didn't imply it had to do with anything else. Kabuto stated that the reason he surpassed Orochimaru is because he became strong enough to achieve Sage Mode, something Orochimaru was too weak to obtain. He said nothing about the power of the Sound Five or Taka making him stronger than Orochimaru. His Sage Mode is merely a perfected version, the same version Naruto has, which is noted to be stronger than Jiraiya's but not that much stronger. Jiraiya is still a Sage Mode user, and can use it in combat, and has mastered a fighting style based on it. If Jiraiya is strong enough to achieve and use something that Orochimaru was too weak to be able to do and went to great lengths to even emulate, then doesn't that automatically make Jiraiya noticeably stronger?

    The main reason Kabuto is so strong is because for one he does not merely have a perfected Sage Mode, he has a perfected Sage Mode + Orochimaru's Power of the White Snake + Sound Five + Taka all in one. That is why he is a tier above Jiraiya, not merely because of his Sage Mode for Jiraiya's Sage Mode has similar capabilities as they both have powerful sound-based techniques and one is not noted to be way above the other.

    I mean Jiraiya was dead so he didn't make a big deal, and the statement that Fukasaku made also said that Naruto surpassed Minato with his perfected Sage Mode so it's dubious at best. Also Sage Mode Jiraiya is not just Jiraiya, it is Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima all in Sage Mode working as a perfect trinity with great synergy.

    Except despite Itachi being perceived as superior to Orochimaru, Itachi stated that if he and Jiraiya fought they'd probably kill each other or at least wound each other very badly. There is nothing that suggests Itachi was lying, people only believe he was lying because they think Itachi is stronger which is simply an opinion. So the Itachi > Orochimaru >= Jiraiya logic doesn't work here. In part 2 the strongest person Itachi is portrayed as being able to beat is Obito, who is much weaker than Pain, while Jiraiya is portrayed able to beat Pain. The Manga has Itachi place himself on the same level as Jiraiya in Part 1, portrays Jiraiya as being able to beat someone stronger than Itachi in Part 2, and the Third Databook (also authored by Kishimoto) gives Jiraiya and Itachi both equal stats higher than anyone else's in the series at the time. Now it's true that stats aren't the end all to everything, and shouldn't be placed above the Manga, but it still can be used as supplementary evidence alongside the Manga. Then from a narrative standpoint, you have both Jiraiya and Itachi dying around the same time, and have Jiraiya and Itachi acting as benchmarks for Naruto and Sasuke to obtain a new ability to get stronger, and then when you factor in the whole "Body" > "Eyes" theme in becomes increasingly obvious that Jiraiya and Itachi are meant to be seen on the same level with Jiraiya ultimately being slightly stronger than Itachi.

    I don't mean to sound rude, but honestly, your opinion doesn't matter when Nagato says that Jiraiya could've defeated the Six Paths of Pain if he had known their secret. This is what people don't seem to understand, your perception of the Manga is made irrelevant in the face of what the characters themselves say. Pain stated Jiraiya could've beat them if he had known their secret, Obito Uchiha says that the fact that Jiraiya gave the "invincible" Pain such trouble means he has truly lived up to his reputation, a wounded one-armed Jiraiya took on all Six Paths at once off-panel (yes I know the Deva, Asura, and Naraka didn't use their powers but still) and lured one away and defeated it (and this was before Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima were retconned to have sensing perception and Frog Kata and other techs they didn't use then that makes them even stronger), and in the War Arc Obito after obtaining Nagato's Rinnegan is worried about Kabuto reincarnating Jiraiya and Shisui Uchiha. Whether you like it or not, Jiraiya is clearly much stronger than you think he is.

    The Katsuyu retcon is still not placing Tsunade on par with Jiraiya, it's not strong enough to do that. I did that in regards to Naruto being superior to Jiraiya because that statement also says that he surpassed Minato which is clearly false, which isn't the case with Jiraiya beating Pain.

    No they don't, in no shape or form in the Manga or Databooks has Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique or Tsunade's Ninja Art Creation Rebirth - Strength of a Hundred Technique been portrayed as on par with even an imperfect Sage Mode: you can simply read their entries and see what one is stronger. It is a power that is noted to far surpass Ninjutsu, and raises the level of one's Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu greatly and has been depicted as capable of challenging not only the Six Paths of Pain but also happens to have many good counters to Mangekyo wielders: who Orochimaru has been defeated by and portrayed as inferior to. Imperfect or perfect, it has much greater hype and feats going for it than anything Orochimaru or Tsunade have.

    Alright, let's say that this is true but this still doesn't make Tsunade on par with Jiraiya at all. Also even if Orochimaru can kill Jiraiya before he can use Sage Mode, that doesn't make them equals or make Orochimaru stronger as SM Jiraiya is still depicted above him. This whole "Orochimaru and Tsunade's strongest techs = Jiraiya's SM" argument is simply an incorrect fanon fabrication, you can see what each of their strongest techs/modes did in the Manga, and read their databook entries, and literally see which one is stronger. But nonetheless, if you still disagree with me we will just have to agree to disagree.
     
  13. Sapherosth One post man

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    Didn't carry on to part 2?




    Directly compared .
     
  14. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    Which still ultimately doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya's Sage Mode is depicted as superior in the Manga and Databooks. But you keep on distorting text as you usually do.
     
  15. Veracity More Life

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    Kishi considered Sage Jirayia when he established the equality among the Sannin. Again, that's the point. Jirayia didn't break anything, cause bringing our Sage Mode was a given for him in Part 1.

    Let me settle this for you right now. You just admitted that Perfect Sage Mode> Imperfect Sage Mode. Kabuto didn't say he shitted down Oro's throat in terms of power, he merely said he surpassed him. Perfect Sage Kabuto> Oro or Sage Imperfect Jirayia by your own admission. That ends it right there. Not even going to go into the fact that Kabuto was clearly referencing all the enhancements he added to his Sage Mode when he quoted such. I have no idea why you would assume he decided to leave everything out, doesn't make much sense. And if Oro has the body to attain Sage Mode he would have been the strongest memeber of the Sannin.

    Wait.. so I'm not allowed to ignore context and take a statement at face value, but you are? Do you not see how hypercritical that is? You stated that Jirayia is superior to the Sannin because he was stated to be able to defeat Pain. I'm saying that Naruto is superior to Jirayia because the elder sages stated such. Then you say that I'm wrong because I'm ignoring context, but you can ignore context and that's fine? That's crazy.

    Itachi's part one statement is irrelevant because it's been retconned, and I'm using context to come to that conclusion. The same thing you've been doing to conclude that Naruto isn't above Minato. Itachi was shitting on Oro the entirety of Part 2 and now I'm supposed to believe that Jirayia( his canonical equal as per statements but whatever lol) is equal to Itachi? No I'm fine not believing that. I'm also not diving into Databook stats because Itachi and Jirayia having an equal score( which is before the retcon) doesn't negate all the other inconsistencies in the databook. I'm not basing my belief off of that poison lol.

    hypercritical. You are going to ignore my opinion of the manga in face of a mang statement but when I go the same it's not applicable? Sage Naruto> Minato or Jirayia. You can't walk around that as it's directly what Kishi said. I'm literally just using the logic you applied. By actual feats, Jirayia gets curbed by Pain. Simply because Handicapped Pain beat Sage Naruto( Jirayia's superior as per statements), so he could do the same to Jirayia. Way easier mind you.

    I think Katsuyu retcon and Byakago make up for Sage Mode. Tsuande still loses to Jirayia, but that's because the slog loses to the Frog. Oro with Part 1 Edo, would win though.

    What you think is valued as superior to is your opinion. When feats and portrayal is regarded, the Sannin are equal in their power. Thats what the author was trying to drive.

    We gotta agree to disagree on the whole Sannin equality as the following are all things I greatly disagree with:
    • Jirayia beating Pain
    • Imperfect Sage Mode being god-like
    • Base Databook statements being relevant
     
  16. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    You have provided no evidence that Kishimoto took that into account, furthermore when this Deadlock was established all of the Sannin were weaker than they were in Part 2.

    I wholeheartedly agree that if Orochimaru had Sage Mode he would've been the strongest. The fact is he didn't, so because of that he is weaker than Jiraiya. It doesn't matter if Kabuto didn't say he shitted down Orochimaru's throat in terms of power, and only that he surpassed him. As we see Kabuto taking on two Uchiha stronger than Orochimaru and killing one of them and nearly killing the other due to the power of his Sage Mode using two techs he learned from the Ryuchi Cave without even using the other extra techs yet. The fact is if Kabuto surpassed Oro due to Sage Mode, and Jiraiya also has Sage Mode, then Jiraiya has surpassed Oro.

    I'm not ignoring context. Pain's statement was never contradicted, Fukasaku's statement was contradicted. It's as simple as that.

    No it hasn't, when has it been retconned? I've also pointed out above, Jiraiya is no longer Orochimaru's equal as made clear already. The Manga and Databooks both have inconsistencies, people merely ignore the latter because they don't like what it says as usual.

    Like I said, the statement I cling to is not contradicted, the statement that you cling to is. Kishimoto also directly stated that NTCM Naruto wasn't as strong as Minato, and didn't even start comparing them consistently until he got NTCM, and has Naruto state that his NTCM is superior to SM. So Kishimoto flat-out retconned that old statement and rendered it meaningless when Naruto isn't portrayed as on Minato's level until the War Arc. Handicapped Pain also beating Naruto doesn't matter, cause Naruto isn't Jiraiya, they have different movesets and fight differently and Jiraiya still has greater hype than he does especially in the War Arc. Hype is more important than feats anyway.

    Read the databook entries, it's obvious that it doesn't and imperfect SM is still better.

    The author stopped portraying that the minute he gave Jiraiya something Orochimaru was to weak to achieve, and portrayed Jiraiya as able to beat a character even stronger than someone who has beaten Orochimaru. The concept that they're all equal is simply conjecture.

    It's not godlike, but it's greater than anything Itachi, Orochimaru, or Tsunade have. A more accurate list is Sage Mode Jiraiya > MS Itachi > Orochimaru > Tsunade. But nonetheless, I agree to disagree.
     
  17. Veracity More Life

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    I already said you'd have to hold out on the link. Jirayia had Sage Mode in Part 1( the concept) while Tsuande didn't have Byakago or Katsuyu retcon. They were equal lol.

    Nope doesn't matter. You can't just make up how mcuh more powerful you think Kabuto thought he was in comparison to Jirayia. All he said was greater than, and you've already admitted that Perfect Sage Mode is greater than Inperfect Sage Mode. & since that's the only way you've drawn Jirayia's superiority over Oro... it falls flat.

    You mean Kabuto with an enhanced Sage Mode + Sound four abilities took on Itachi and Sasuke in a cave. Not just Kabuto with Imperfect Sage Mode. You cannot draw that comparison because Kabuto and Jirayia have completely different Sage Modes.

    Bruh. Pain was handicapped greatly during his battle with Naruto and still defeated Perfect Sage Naruto + Gama Trio + Elder Sages. He molests Jirayia. I'll even make the thread so you can see firsthand how your logic falls flat. That right there contradicts Jirayia being superior to Pain lol.

    Itachi being equal to the Sannin( in terms of Databook scores and statements from Tsuande) was retconned the moment he was dicking down Oro left and right. That was a change in Part 2, which probabaly included Sussano and Amaterasu.

    Can you link me to scans of Kishi saying that Naruto didn't surpass Minato until the War Arc? Being faster =\= surpassing btw. Sage Naruto and KCM Naruto both have their pros and cons( which is why Naruto used SM to combat the Raikage). Jirayia being different from Naruto doesn't matter. He was hard pressed against the 3 weakest Pains. Adding in 3 more Pains equals his death.

    Hype is not superior to feats and Jirayia does not have superior hype at all. Obito not wanting Jirayia to be revived doesn't make the man superior to Naruto at all. It just means he is powerful, which is true for all the Sannin.

    You thinking Sage Mode is greater in the Databook is akin to me thinking larger Katsuyu closes the gap between Sage Jirayia and Tsuande. Obvious right?

    Oro closed that gap by mastering other techinques; like the forbidden Edo. If Oro has actually mastered Sage Mode, then he would take a dump on Tsuande and Jirayia.

    I look at it as Byakago Tsuande = Sage Jirayia = Oro + Part 1 Edo. But that's just me.
     
  18. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Your argument is contingent upon whether or not it is Databook Hyperbole which you have not proven. I quite frankly do not see it as hyperbole, just Kishimoto's exhortation for Orochimaru's power and how it differs from his previous abilities. If that wasn't the case, then it's rather peculiar why Kishimoto would use such distinct terminology including its assimilation to a dragon in the first place. Such terminology clearly had meaning and that was seen how assimilating to a dragon was used as the basis for Kabuto's boast of superiority.

    It really doesn't matter if it is not Senjutsu, Hydra is a rudimentary form of a dragon whereas Jiraiya's Sage Mode is incomplete.

    Even so, you cannot use Kabuto's statement when Jiraiya's Sage Mode was vastly exceeded by Perfect Sages. That doesn't make much sense at all and I know you knew this in the past.

    You're willing to accept elements of portrayal with open arms such as Pain's remark on Jiraiya's performance yet the same cannot be made when there was constant emphasis on Naruto's Sage Mode in comparison to Jiraiya's? Sorry, not buying that. We're told that Naruto would surpass Jiraiya through perfecting Sage Mode despite his ineptitude in comparison to Jiraiya without it:

    SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya >> Base Jiraiya >> Base Naruto is a hefty difference that cannot be dismissed so easily.

    I will just say that Jiraiya has no feats with Frog Kata and Sage Sensing, so you cannot use this as the foundation of your argument. That is purely dishonest.

    This is my assertion:

    I did not deny that Sage Mode was on the highest echelon of the respective animalistic arts, rather I dismissed the notion that Orochimaru didn't reach the pinnacle of his respective arts. Jiraiya's Sage Mode is incomplete because his transformation from a Frog to a Sage (indicated by pigmentations and a human-like physique) is not brought to fruition. He instead had retained frog-like characteristics which instantiates imperfection even though you agreed that Jiraiya had reached the pinnacle of the Frog Arts. Likewise, Orochimaru's transformation is incomplete because his transformation from a Snake to a Dragon is not brought to fruition and Kabuto rectifies this by not boasting a form akin to a snake. He is more humanoid just like Naruto was relative to Jiraiya.

    There's literally no inherent difference between the two. Perfect Sage Mode is still deemed to be perfection for both of them, but Jiraiya's assimilation to a Sage is incomplete and while Orochimaru transformed into a dragon as per Databook, his transformation is still incomplete as well.

    There is no merit in the notion of it being unsubstantiated databook hyperbole. You cannot make that assertion when those words come straight from the horse's mouth in a source that generally remains consistent. Your only argument is the fact that it is not supported in the manga even though the purpose of the Databook is divulge additional information on things that were left untouched. Hydra was clearly one of them.

    Pa claimed that Naruto's Sage Mode vastly exceeds Jiraiya's. What more do you want?

    Interestingly enough, Databook seems to agree that Orochimaru's power is derived from Sage Mode given that Hydra reaches the pinnacle of the "White Snake" power which is intertwined with the origins of Kabuto's Sage Mode. His is a rudimentary form of the "White Snake" in the same way that Jiraiya is a rudimentary form of the "Frog Sage".

    Refer to Sapherosth's scan, this is exactly why I believe that their abilities are equal.

    Nothing, but hyperbole. We were shown that Pain absolutely trashed SM Jiraiya and continued to defeat his superior decisively despite battling more passively as to preserve Naruto for capture. There's literally no merit in that statement. Even Naruto's Sage Mode exceeding Jiraiya's and Hydra's DB Entry holds more credibility. Those weren't contradicted by the manga, Pain's admiration was.
     
  19. Turrin 玄武

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    Kishimoto didn't give us a statement of them being equally handicapped. Orochimaru made an an assertion that they were. And perhaps he was right or perhaps he was boasting. But the facts are Jiriaya went to use Kuchiyose no Jutsu and all he could do is bring out a useless Gammakichi. On the other hand, while Orochimaru couldn't use Kuchiyose, Kabuto stepped in and summon two massive Snakes for him. So end of the day the results speak for themselves, Jiriaya end up w/ no useable summon and Orochimaru ended up with two powerful summons. Whether handicapps were equal or not Orochimaru held the clear advantage at that point because his support was way better than Jiriaya's. So saying welp they were equally handicapped and Orochimaru was winning so he's stronger, is not a fair assertion. Anymore then saying welp they were equally handicapped and Orochimaru fled the battle having lost, makes Jiraiya stronger; as Jiraiya held the clear advantage at the end because the tides turned and his support became superior w/ Tsunade regaining her resolve and replacing Shizune as his aid.

    --------

    Anyway I've comment on the match up before, Jiriaya is on another level than Orochimaru due to SM:

    Portrayal
    I think the manga is pretty consistent in portraying Jiraiya on a higher level than Orochimaru.

    • Itachi was concerned that if he faced Jiraiya he may be killed. Conversely when confronted with Orochimaru, Itachi with utmost confidence declared that all of Orochimaru's Jutsu were useless against him. Comparing the opinions of other characters; Kisame only thought Itachi "might" "somehow" be able to defeat Jiraiya, while Orochimaru and Sasuke considered the idea of Orochimaru standing any chance against Itachi an impossibility. Furthermore, contrasting direct performances, Itachi humiliated Orochimaru both times he went up against him, while Jiraiya's opening Toad-Stomach Jutsu caused Itachi to fall back and use Amaterasu to escape. The difference couldn't be clearer.

    • Nagato directly stated that Jiraiya would have defeated Pain with more intel. Conversely when Orochimaru with a ton of intel on Itachi and Sharingan, attacked Itachi who most agree is inferior to Pain, under ideal circumstances [Itachi haggered at the end of Hebi-Sasuke Fight], he was still humiliated. He also outright stated taking Itachi's body was an impossible dream, meaning under no circumstances with an entire village backing him, did he consider it feasible for him to weaken Itachi to the point where he could take hold with Fuushi-Tensei. Furthermore, Orochimaru had thee most ideal circumstances against Old-Hiruzen, again who most would agree is much weaker than Pain, and he just barely managed to irk out "win". Contrasting that with Jiraiya beating Pain, and again the difference couldn't be clearer.

    • Jiraiya achieved Toad Sennin Modo, the pinnacle of Toad Arts. Conversely Orochimaru failed to achieve Snake Sennin Modo. Sennin Modo itself being considered a comparable power up to Mangekyo; considering that Sasuke and Naruto are slated as equals after both train with MS and SM respectively. Kabuto ability to utilize SM is also the most highlighted reason for him achieving superiority over Orochimaru. Itachi also shows great respect for the power of SM, which again greatly contrasts his absolute disregard for Orochimaru's own powers cited above. SM also dramatically enhances the user in abilities in many of the fundamental Ninja Arts; now consider that Base-Jiraiya is already ahead of Orochimaru in this regard and tied with Itachi, according to DBIII stats. Jiraiya SM also grants two of his summons the ability to use Senjutsu freely, while none of Orochimaru's summons demonstrated this capacity.

    • Jiraiya is considered a success from a story perspective. He perfectly embodies Kishimoto's ideals for the perfect Shinobi, and his accomplishments against Pain led to the ultimate salvation of the Naruto world at large. Even Obito credits his defeat in part to Jiraiya. Conversly, story-wise Orochimaru is suppose to be seen as abject failure. He convinced himself that he could steal the power of others and make it his own, following that path he tried to take several dream vessels, but whether due to fate or inability he failed to acquire those vessels at every turn. Ironically, though likely intentional on Kishimoto's part, Orochimaru is unable to achieve Snake Sennin Modo because his body was not powerful enough. The point being that story-wise it makes perfect sense for Kishimoto to have Jiraiya who was a success due to his hard work and will, far excelling Orochimaru who went down the wrong path with the end result being abject failure; it also makes sense power wise with the above point that Orochimaru own body weakness prevented him from achieving the power that likely separates the two of them: Sennin-Modo.
    Feats
    Feats are honestly the easiest part of this discussion to argue. In-fact they are so disproportionate I'll handicap myself and only argue Base-Jiraiya's feats. This is an extremely significant handicap, not just because i'm restricting Jiraiya's strongest abilities, but because Base-Jiraiya has had significantly less panel time than Orochimaru to accumulate feats. Even still I can make a compelling case for Jiraiya's victory or at least a draw.
    • Summons - According to statements and portrayal Bunta and Manda are suppose to be equals. But it is known that Manda outplayed Bunta in the Sannin duel, so I'll throw Orochimaru a bone here and just concede that Manda is superior. However unlike Orochimaru, Jiraiya can summon 2 more Toads within a similar class as Bunta, Ken and Hiro. Manda can't take Ken and Hiro, on-top of Bunta, by himself. But I'll throw Orochimaru another bone here, lets say his other large snakes can take Ken & Hiro, while Manda focuses on Bunta, despite the fact that Oro's other large snakes have nowhere near the feats or hype of Hiro or Ken; and Hiro literally sat on one to death, but whatever... Even then Orochimaru is outclassed summon wise, as he has not shown any Snakes that could match up to Fusaku and Shima, but fuck it let's assume he can summon that pot smoking Snake Sage that Kabuto trained with, whose as strong as Fusaku and Shima; even though pretty sure he is suppose to be Prophecy-Toad's equivalent rather than Fusaku and Shima's, but again whatever...

    However, even still Jiraiya has demonstrated a much more cordinated and refined fighting style with his summons. He developed powerful combinations with them such as Gama-Yu- Endan, Food Cart Destroy, and so on, through his deep trust and collaboration with them. While Manda seemed more then willing to cut tail and run the moment the going got tough, and Kabuto even went so far as to say if Orochimaru showed any weakness Manda would gladly gobble his ass up for super. But fuck, let's just assume Orochimaru can pull of similar combos with his different snakes and just never showed them. Jiraiya would still hold the advantage in a summon duel, because he can offer more support to his summons than Orochimaru can. With massive elemental Jutsu like Yomi Numa he can easily sink snakes left and right, while his greater chakra supplies allows him to freely create Kage-Bushin to more easily collaborate and combo with multiple summons at the same time. So even with all the beneficial assumptions in the world Jiraiya still ends up ahead by a bit, now imagine that we take away all those beneficial assumption and how badly Jiraiya smashes him; after all this is suppose to be just the feat section anyway, and none of those assumptions are actual feats Orochimaru has.

    • CQC - When it comes to pure physicality Base-Jiraiya is ahead of Orochimaru in both physical strength [4.5 vs 3.5] and stamina [5 vs 3.5]. They are equal in speed [4.5 vs 4.5], but Jiriaya should hold the edge, as he can augment his reactions with his motion detection barrier, and multi-task better through being able to use Kage-Bushin more freely. Jiraiya formal Taijutsu skill and knowledge is also superior [4.5 vs 3.5], which should both allow him to more easily anticipate attacks as well as land his own. Beyond physicality, Orochimaru has his Hidden-Snake hands techniques to augment his CQC offense, but Jiraiya can counter these with wild-lion's mane which is unquestionably superior in power and versatility, consider it's display against the Lobster summon, Animal-Path, and the ability for it to act defensively via Hari-Jizo. Orochimaru can also use more elements than Jiraiya, but Jiraiya has been unilaterally more impressive in his displays with elemental Jutsu; he also has more chakra to pump into each element and can use Kage-Bushin more freely to assist in forming elemental combos, meaning he'll win most of the time in a direct clash. And let's face it Orochimaru really only has one more element than him anyway, so it's not like Oro can really fall back on exploiting elemental weaknesses.
    The most dangerous thing Orochimaru has in CQC is probably his Ksunagi sword, but we've seen it halted by Enma before so it's not some god weapon. In-fact in terms of deadly CQC, Rasengan has much better feats than Ksunagi, and should be able to not only block it but outright blow it away in a single clash; not to mention Jiraiya has shown the ability to duel wield Rasengan and can generate even more Rasengan with clones. And if there is any doubt about Base-Jiraiya's ability to intercept the Ksunagi Sword, we need look no further than his superior physicality and skill, as cited above.

    Aside from that Orochimaru's other dangerous style of CQC attack would be to use Oral Rebirth as a feint, like Kabuto did to Itachi, but Jiraiya's motion barrier makes it exceedingly difficult to feint him, the possibility of Kage- Bushin and Toads being on the field also makes it even more difficult to land such a feint. And Jiraiya himself is not without his own ability to land tricky feints, he's got more free use of KB, he can use his shadow manipulation/snatching to feint Oro, he can use traps like Camouflaged Yomi Numa and Toad Stomach, and Gamagakuru no Jutsu; and Orochimaru is a-lot less equipped to detect all of these various methods Jiraiya has at his disposal.

    • Mid/Long Range - Honestly I shouldn't even need to waste my time with this. Orochimaru feat wise is very limited as these ranges and has very few techniques he can use. But i'll go through them briefly. He has Diatoppa, which gets complete trashed by Jiraiya's massively superior Katons that hold the elemental advantage. He Mandara no Jin, which gets easily sunk by Yomi Numa or decimated by Elemental Jutsu like Water Gun Shot or Gama Yu Endan. He has stretch arm strong limbs and extendo Ksunagi, but I don't really see any reason why Jiraiya couldn't just avoid this outright or counter it through any number of means. Maybe with Manda to speed around the battlefield while he wields it this would get dangerous, but that brings us back to the Summon match, and as I already illustrated Jiriaya hold the edge their ultimately. Anyway Jiraiya would waste Orochimaru if he tried to fight at a range given his vastly superior arsenal.
    • Orochimaru's Durability - People like to harp on this point, but honestly after the war-arc I doubt this would even be a major point of contention in the actual battle. If absolute fodder cloth sealers can utilize a Fuuinjutsu capable of sealing immortal zombies of some of the strongest characters in the verse, I find it extremely hard to image that Jiriaya who has utilized and developed some of the most complex Fuuinjutsu in the entire verse (in base mind you) would be unable to do the same with his own Fuuinjutsu. But this is a feats comparison and i'm not going to throw Jiraiya the bones I've been thrown Orochimaur, so I won't even go further with this, and the thing is I don't need to anyway. Jiraiya has plenty of shown Jutsu that can deal with Orochimaru's durability, because well Orochimaru isn't that durable, he's more regenerative and regeneration is cool, but regen is not help Orochimaru if he is burned to ash by Jiraiya's Katons, Sunk to unknown fathoms by Jiriaya's Yomi Numa, sealed in Toad Gourd, Suffocated in Toad Stomach, or my favorite transformed into a Toad. Bottom-line Jiriaya has plenty of ways to fuck Orochimaru's day up despite his regen
    • Yamata no Orochi - Finally we come to Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu and one that I think would indeed give Jiraiya a tough match; well at least when we remember i'm talking about Base-Jiriaya that is. Yamata no Orochi is great, but it is completely lacking in feats, so i'm going to have to base it's power off hype and portrayal, which is again throwing Orochimaru a bone I didn't not throw Jiriaya at any point in this feats portion. According to hype Yamata is stronger than Manda and according to Orochimaru's confidence against the damage Susano'o dished out we can assume it's very durable and regenerative. Given this most of Base-Jiraiya's Jutsu are going to tanked and summons are going to be squashed in a direct confrontation.
    Honestly the Elder Toads could also use Frog-Song, as that doesn't require Jiraiya to go SM, but I won't even go there, instead i'll highlight Yamata's weakness of being a Giant target, and it has no hype or feats to substantiate it being extraordinarily fast for it's size and Jiraiya should be able to slow it down even more with Yomi Numa. After largely immobilizing it Jiraiya can simply attack it outside it's range with Water Gun Shot, Oil + Katon combos, and other long range Jutsu from himself and summons to slowly whittling it down and eventually destroying it or force Orochimaru to abandon it.

    Based on the above I think i've done a good job of defending how Feat-wise Jiriaya can contend with Orochimaru in Base, now imagine how he'd tare that ass up in SM.

    Edo Tensei
    First I'll talk about mechanics of Edo-Tensei itself and then I'll talk about feats and Portrayal.

    • Mechanics - Edo-Tensei can only be used under certain circumstances. It requires the caster to have prep time to gather DNA, human sacrifices, create talismans, and then ultimately perform the ritual. The ritual can't be performed like a year ago prior to the summoning as some people claim; why because it requires chakra to control the Tensei, otherwise the Tensei would not just sit obediently in a coffin waiting to do the caster biding. Orochimaru nor any caster of Edo-Tensei for that matter can't just have several Tensei lying around as controlling them would eat through Oro's chakra and then they would eventually escape his control, when he chakra ran dry. Additionally the DNA of powerful shinobi is hard to come buy, so there has to be great enough motivation for the caster to waste this DNA on summoning a Tensei.
    Simply put for Orochimaru to have Edo-Tensei in a fight against Jiraiya, we'd need a set of circumstance where Orochimaru knows when and where he is going to fight Jiriaya ahead of time and is motivated to take the extra steps to prep Edo-Tensei in advance. Which basically amounts to giving Orochimaru a ridiculously huge advantage. Give Jiraiya the same exact advantages and the guy can start in Sage-Mode with Ma/Pa Charged up w/ Frog-Song ready; simply put many Shinobi can conjure powerful set ups under these conditions, see Konan for instance.
    • But Fuck it I'll Still Tell You How Jiraiya Wins: Portrayal - Considering how long Old-Hiruzen lasted against the Tensei and was able to repel their assaults, there is no way those Tensei are portrayed as strong enough to kill Jiriaya before he reaches SM. Now let's consider that from a portrayal perspective Orochimaru with these same exact advantages still nearly lost to Old-Hiruzen, it was ridiculously close; so unless someone wishes to argue Old-Hiruzen > SM-Jiraiya, pretty confident SM-Jiriaya is winning this and without an extraordinary amount of difficulty ether. Also let's be frank here at best the Tensei were portrayed at Low-Kage level, taking two Low-Kage Immortals is tough, for sure, but we've seen SM-Clones with intel beat Edo-Sandaime-Raikage. We've also seen SM users stomp Pain Paths that are probably Low-Kage as well like Animal Realm and be consider so powerful that characters Shikaku thought that even a group of Rookies and Jonin couldn't help Naruto, and Katsuya thought Team Gai would only get in his way. Pretty sure that places SM users on a level where they can fuck two Low-Kage Tensei's day up and still have plenty left over to dominate Orochimaru, whose chakra levels should be dwindling considering the chakra he used to control those Tensei in the first place (For example he was sweating and panting after controlling Edo-Hokages for a long period of time)

    • Feats, but seriously let's not even go there - The feat comparison is just laughable. Edo-Hashirama's display was weaker than fucking Yamato's, who is in-turn nowhere even near someone like Base-Jiraiya let alone SM-Jiraiya; and Tobirama was even worse then that. Base-Jiraiya clones can probably take these guys with difficulty, SM-Jiraiya clones would punk them Killer-B punking Suigetsu and Juugo style. The only thing worth discussing would be bringer of darkness but Jiraiya hard counters it with motion barrier, Shima's tongue, and SM sensing. With that said I don't think feats are a fair measure of the level of these Tensei, because they are victims of PI power inflation, but that would bring us back to portrayal and i've already outlined why Jiriaya should still be able to win based on portrayal and why Jiriaya overall is portrayed above Orochimaru.
    Conclusion
    The idea of Orochimaru being equal to Jiriaya is based on three things. Orochimaru's boasts, Orochimaru being Jiraiya's rival, and people believing the Sannin ascribe to the Japanese folktale they are based on. The former argument is terrible, Orochimaru is the Sasuke parallel, Sasuke boasted superiority over Naruto all the time, when in-fact the opposite was true, so much more often than not in the series that at the end of the day when Sasuke is actual honest at VOTE II he admits such. The second argument is bad too, as Sasuke and Naruto the rivalry that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are suppose to be based on were not always equals throughout the story, at different times one would be ahead of the other, as such Jiraiya being ahead of Orochimaru at one point in their lives hardly goes against this theme.

    The latter argument is like thee most ridiculous shit i've ever heard, considering that Kishi getting his inspiration for character designs from folktale does not mean he ascribes to it. He got Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi design and idea from the folktale about Susano'o confronting Yamata no Orochi, but in that tale Yamata no Orochi is way stronger than Susano'o and Susano'o wins through clever strategy, yet in the manga Susano'o owns Yamata no Orochi. Just to give one example where Kishi's inspiration doesn't align perfectly with the end result in the manga.

    These three rather poor arguments are not anywhere near compelling enough to ignore the mountain of evidence of feats/portrayal that places Jiraiya above Orochimaru.
     
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  20. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Orochimaru overpowered Jiraiya after those Twin Snakes were subdued through Yomi Numa and Kabuto wasn't even apart of their battle after summoning those Twin Snakes which renders this point moot. At the end of the day, both battled on equal grounds and Orochimaru had overpowered because he was always his superior. I'm simply going to abide by Orochimaru's assertion because statements within the manga made are always engrained with a sense of purpose (since there is always a reason an author presents statements) as opposed to dismissing it entirely just because of your subjective interpretation of shit (support, Twin Snakes, arrogance, etc) that simply don't matter.

    I won't be hypocrite, I will take statements as they are unless there are circumstances or manga showings that contradict it. Quite frankly, there is none, so I will reach out for portrayal and infer that both were equally handicapped yet Orochimaru won because he was depicted as the better fighter. This has always remained the case and I've failed to see how this has been directly contradicted.
     
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  21. FlamingRain Living Legend

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    There was concept art of Sage Mode Jiraiya with Fukasaku and Shima shoulder-pads in databook 1 (which pre-dates the guidebook where the Sannin were stated to be equals). That's probably what Veracity is referring to. The picture of the concept art that I had used before doesn't seem to be displaying currently, though.

    Either way, Jiraiya was known as the Toad Sage even then. Just because Jiraiya hadn't yet revealed Sage Mode didn't mean he didn't have it already. In fact that's probably why Itachi knew about Senjutsu.
     
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  22. UchihaX28 U̶c̶h̶i̶h̶a̶W̶a̶n̶k̶e̶r̶

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    Interesting, I did not know that. :hm
     
  23. Isaiah13000 Ophiuchus and Scorpio

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    I saw FlamingRain's post, so I believe you, but like I also said before this does not depict equality.

    Anyone who has Sage Mode is stronger than Orochimaru. Imperfect or perfect, that was clearly illustrated. Kabuto was flat-out depicted as much stronger than Orochimaru, that was made clear when he was overwhelming EMS Sasuke and MS Edo Itachi (who is even stronger than living Itachi who beat Orochimaru): which he did so with only using two techs he learned from the Ryuchi Cave prior to using the Sound Five. That is also not the only reason Jiraiya is superior, he is superior because he was depicted as a match for Itachi while Orochimaru wasn't, and was depicted as being able to challenge Pain while Orochimaru wasn't.

    Again, Kabuto overwhelmed them only use his Sage Mode techs at the start, before he even used the Sound Five's abilities. The last sentence is conjecture, there is no enormous difference between their Sage Modes.

    I don't care about the opinions of others when Pain himself outright states that Jiraiya could've beaten him. I'm not saying Jiraiya is superior to Pain either, being able to beat someone doesn't make you stronger than them. Pain even said he could've beaten him with knowledge, so obviously without it he couldn't.

    He's not equal to the Sannin, he's about equal with Jiraiya and much stronger than Orochimaru and Tsunade. The Sannin are not all equal, this was made clear in Part 2. If not outright in Part 1, when Orochimaru says Itachi is stronger than himself in Part 1, and Itachi views himself as equal to Jiraiya in Part 1. This whole "all the Sannin are equal" has been contradicted everywhere.

    By hype and feats it's obvious that Minato was still stronger, but since you insist. it that Naruto didn't begin to approach and reach Minato's level until he got Kurama Mode. If he was truly stronger than Minato, these direct comparisons wouldn't have been kept being made nor would he have been stated to be less skilled than Minato. From a narrative standpoint, it just makes no sense to portray Naruto as reaching his father's level and not acknowledging him to be a "savior" until he can replicate what his dad did if he was already stronger than his dad. It would have made all of that meaningless. There is absolutely no way that Sage Mode Naruto is stronger than Minato, that was clearly contradicted in the War Arc. Jiraiya being different does matter, as like I said before Jiraiya was also even weaker when he first fought the Pains. He, Fukasaku, nor Shima had any sensing prowess, Frog Kata, or other useful techniques yet that makes them all even stronger. You're ignoring the fact that Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima were all made even stronger in the Pain's Assault Arc compared to the Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant Arc. Also those being the three weakest Paths is subjective, if anything an argument can be made that the Animal Path and Preta Path are among the strongest. This also again, does not change the fact that Pain doesn't agree with you. There's also the fact that Jiraiya's superior versatility can enable him to do things that Naruto cannot even if Naruto was stronger than he is. Jiraiya's SM also doesn't run out like Naruto's does.

    Well we will have to disagree there, and considering Obito was concerned about Jiraiya but not Naruto at the time who he knew had Sage Mode as well kind of proves my point. The "stronger" Naruto couldn't actually defeat Pain even with all the assistance he got, but Jiraiya could've without all that assistance, Obito doesn't seem to care much about Naruto himself at all even after he got Sage Mode, but expresses concern about Jiraiya being reincarnated. This is definitely solid evidence that Jiraiya is still above Naruto at that point.

    Objectively, the databook entry on Sage Mode indicates that it is blatantly superior to anything that Orochimaru or Tsunade have. You can literally read it and see that it is clearly stronger, and in the Manga it is literally depicted as superior.

    No he didn't, because Edo Tensei doesn't count as apart of Orochimaru's usual power. It takes a significant amount of preparation and allows you to summon undead warriors using their own abilities to fight for you. But yes if he mastered SM, he would be stronger than either.

    Well you can personally believe what you want, but the Manga and Databooks made it clear who is superior.

    Kabuto was still flat-out depicted as much stronger than Orochimaru due to Sage Mode, regardless of the "transcending a snake into a dragon" nonsense that the Databook goes on about. Even Itachi . Now before you bring up Itachi still believing they could kill him, that doesn't change the fact that SM Kabuto was still depicted as a legitimate threat to both EMS Sasuke and Edo MS Itachi and nearly killed one of them and killed the other twice. Anyhow, both Orochimaru's strongest technique and Kabuto's Sage Mode have been stated to be akin to a dragon, yet one a dying Itachi defeats in less than one chapter and an Edo Itachi (who is much stronger than living Itachi) expresses concern over. It is not comparable to Kabuto's Sage Mode whatsoever, that is blatantly made clear.

    Which is still something Orochimaru was too weak to achieve at all.

    The bold is baseless, Jiraiya's is weaker but was not portrayed as being a whole tier below a perfected Sage. Also like I once again said, Orochimaru was still too weak to even achieve an imperfect Sage Mode.



    That same statement also said that Naruto was stronger than Minato, I should not have to point out how wrong that is.

    He was retconned to have it in Pain's Assault and in the Fourth Databook.



    You put way too much emphasis on Jiraiya's Sage Mode being incomplete, incomplete or complete, imperfect or perfect, Jiraiya was strong enough to obtain something that Orochimaru couldn't achieve whatsoever. Orochimaru's transformation may be incomplete but it isn't even Senjutsu, so that doesn't help your argument much at all.

    Except one is still Senjutsu, which is clearly depicted as stronger in the Databook than Orochimaru's ultimate technique. On top of being portrayed as capable of challenging Pain and Itachi, two characters much stronger than Orochimaru himself. Stop trying to compare and equate them, one is clearly above the other.



    The problem is you keep trying to equate Orochimaru's Hydra to Jiraiya's Sage Mode: when the latter is blatantly portrayed as much stronger. Whether it be Manga or Databooks, there is literally no legitimate argument you can make to try to equalize them in any shape or form. Them both being imperfect doesn't matter when Jiraiya's is depicted as much stronger.



    He merely said that Naruto has obtained a , this absolute enormous disparity in power is a fanon fabrication.





    I'm not going to keep sitting here bothering to argue with you when you keep trying to insinuate they are equal. When in the Manga we have Jiraiya's Sage Mode portrayed as being able to beat Pain, while Orochimaru's Hydra is getting taken out in a few panels by a dying Itachi. On top of Edo Itachi expressing concern over Kabuto's Sage Mode (as well as on-panel having great difficulty dealing with it even with help), before he even knew whether it was imperfect or perfected by the way. Whilst a dying Itachi expressed no concern over Orochimaru's Hydra at all, and swiftly defeated it. Derived from SM or not, Jiraiya's SM is objectively superior. We're probably going to have to agree to disagree, I have lost interest in arguing this with you as you continue to be dishonest to paint Orochimaru as Jiraiya's equal which is simply wrong with a plethora of evidence backing this.



    Let's simply ignore the fact that this was prior to Jiraiya being retconned to be stronger, as well as Fukasaku and Shima, and ignore Pain's own words in favor of our own perception. :awesome

    Alright, I believe you as I doubt you'd lie about that. Thanks for the information.
     
  24. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    Oro is like Luffy vs Zoro. Oro is equal to jiriya in base. It could go either way. Idk how to beat oro other than seal him.
     
  25. Turrin 玄武

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    Orochimaru "overpowered" Jiraiya in a CQC. But how did Orochimaru get into CQC w/ Jiriaya in the first place? It's because the snake summons:

    1. quickly allowed Orochimaru to cross the distance between himself Jiraiya, and catch Jiraiya
    2. their smashing off the ground denied Jiriaya his foothold
    3. they provided Orochimaru with his own foothold above Jiraiya's swamp

    If we take away the snakes, Orochimaru would have to chase down and catch Jiraiya, while dealing with Yomi Numa himself, before he could even get into CQC w/ Jiraiya. Something we'd need to discuss whether he could even accomplish on his own, and if he did, if it would have given Jiraiya more time to recover or use other Jutsu that would have enabled him to avoid being "overpowered" in CQC.

    So to me that scene at best demonstrates Orochimaru is superior in CQC to Base-Jiraiya, at worst it really doesn't demonstrate anything at all.

    The author is presenting it for the same reason that he has Sasuke boast he's so much stronger than Naruto, that Naruto won't even scratch his forehead protector. It's to show Orochimaru has a similar superiority complex when it comes to Jiraiya, that Sasuke has when it comes to Naruto; I.E. Kishimoto's typical shit of building parallels. So imo it should not be taken as gospel, when the manga clearly doesn't depict the situation as that black & white. As I said before even if we believe Orochimaru that his and Jiriaya's handicaps are equivalent, the fact that Kabuto assists him in summoning, while Jiriaya has no such assistance, clearly gives Orochimaru an advantage that makes the situation not equal. That directly contradicts the validity of Orochimaru's statement imo.

    And honestly if you want to say this is me dismissing the statement due to a subjective interpretation, then I would like to know how you reconcile Itachi stating he'd at best draw w/ Jiraiya, while bitch slapping Orochimaru and disregarding all of Orochimaru's Jutsu as useless against him, if Orochimaru > Jiraiya. And if you answer is due to Itachi's character you don't put much stock into the statement for X, Y, Z reason I fail to see how you are not "dismissing a statement due to subjective interpretation" as well.

    My point, being that while you can disagree with my interpretation for X, Y, Z reason, just like I'd probably disagree with the your interpretation of the Itachi statement, to try and say my view is invalid on the basis of subjective interpretation, is calling the kettle black, and not being very fair.
     
  26. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    Hype :

    Oro is the genius among the sannin with the highest natural talent, he was the first Hokage candidate ahead of his two comrades and above all Hiruzen himself admitted that even with his intelligence and versatility he was no match for Orochimaru's talent.

    As far as I can recall, Jiraya never had such a "hype", Pain saying he could possibly lose with full knowledge doesn't mean Oro or Tsunade can't perform equally or better since their name was never involved, Obito is pretty aware of this and that's he hyped all the sannin at once through Jiraya's feats :
    "For unstoppable, all-knowing Pain to have had their hands full, means Jiraya must have lived up to his reputation"
    The word "repution" implys Jiraya only deserved his title as one of the legenary sannin (the same league of Oro and Tsuade) because he was capable of such a highly performane against Pain which means Oro all by himself can push Pain to such an extent.

    About the fight itself, the snake was always one cut above the frog sage as we could see in their mutiple interactions allover the manga :
    -Young Jiraya beeing powerless and unable to stop young Oro.
    -Jiraya not enough confident in a possible fight against Oro before Konoha invasion.
    -Jiraya is a trash with no natural talent in Oro's eyes, even with both of them at full power the first doesn't stand a chance against the latter.
    All of this passages show us Oro's superiority and it's not as if Oro wasn't aware about Jiraya's SM

    Feats :

    Jiraya beeing drogued doesn't matter a lot. We all know he recovered his power before the end of the fight since he was able to summon Bunta and even so the weackened and armless Oro dominated and overwhelmed him in every single exchange.
    In other words, Senjutsu or not Oro has the upper hand here.
     
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  27. Veracity More Life

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    We're gonna have to agree to disagree here as we've been going in circles the whole time. We don't see eye to on what importance the Databook holds, what statements hold merits and which don't, as well as what's been retconned.
     
  28. Sapherosth One post man

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    I seriously don't get why you insist Naru/Sasu are parallels to Jiraiya/Orochimaru.

    You say they are parallels but you seem to think that SM Jiraiya dwarfs Orochimaru in strength as if Oro isn't even comparable when in fact, all parallels are close in strength.

    This is enough reason to believe that they ARE relatively equal in strength when they're in their prime (early part 2), using your logic.

    The only thing you're holding on to is a statement in part 1 by Itachi who was actually a spy for Konoha and a well-known liar throughout the entire series. Not exactly a credible source of information, not to mention the absurd notion of Jiraiya taking on all Akatsuki's numbers AND the fact that prior to that, Itachi stated that only a sharingan user could challenge him. These 2 statements conflict with each other directly, not to mention Oro's statement too.

    If anything, that statement is an outlier where it is not consistent with the manga and has been further developed to the point where we can deduce that it is false.


    There are far more evidence which supports the statement being false than the evidence which supports Jiraiya taking on the entire Akatsuki.
     
  29. Turrin 玄武

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    I stopped reading here, sorry but I don't have time for this nonsense.
     
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