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Part 1 Kakashi is Kage level

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Ayala, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. Ayala

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    Im like one of the two people who think this, but i wanted to express my thoughts on this matter, and explain why i think such.

    1. Stated to be a tough match for Kisame.

    Many give excuses on this, on how the statement is wrong because "by feats Kisame destroys him", or how Kisame was restricted.

    Thing is, the same Kisame didn't disagree, and proceeded to give different praises to Kakashi. Same Kakashi who knows about Kisame, didn't really feel outmatched, and we're talking about one of the humblest and rational guys out there. For example, he admitted he was on some serious trouble when against Itachi.

    Kisame also by this point wasn't restricted anymore, as the whole point of restricting him was because he'd attract attention. But by Kakashi's arrival, Itachi understands that the village knows about them, and that reinforcements are incoming.

    Another thing to note, and that i think many people skip, is the fact that Kakashi performed even above Itachi's expectations, meaning Kakashi and Kisame are actually even more closely matched than he thought at first.

    And their reaction to the Sannin was basically the same too, which again supports my point.

    2. He's praised, famous and respected world wide. Is considered worthy of the Kage seat by other Kages.

    Pain and Kisame consider it an honour to meet him, which is something they wouldn't feel with a Jonin level, as these guys beat Jins and Kages on a consistent basis.

    He's gained what is probably the most praise in the series, be it by enemies or allies.

    Another important thing to note is that the other Kages were ok with him taking the Kage seat only based on his past hype and fame.

    3. Rival to Gai, which Itachi warns the Akatsuki about, and is stated to be more than a match for them in the databook too.

    4. The Kabuto case.

    He's compared to Kabuto in strength, which is not the best hype he got, and can be discussed upon, but:

    Said Kabuto was praised as strong by 2 Sannin and said Kabuto could beat what was Konoha's Kage candidate, and in his own words would have done so if he did have killing intent (and if Tsunade didn't have big breasts).

    Keep in mind same Tsunade, even if out of shape, could blitz a personally trained by her Jonin like Shizune and lay her out in 2 seconds. And an out of shape Sannin is still hella strong, just like sick Itachi's still the shit, or how out of shape and old Hiruzen is still Kage level. They're gimped, but they're so powerful that they still don't touch the bottom.

    5. The Zabuza case.

    Long story short, after a close match, Kakashi proved to be superior to Zabuza. This is often distorted and misinterpreted, in my opinion. It goes like this:

    Kakashi struggled with Zabuza, who'se a Jonin level, so he's Jonin level too.

    Meanwhile, Zabuza's praised and considered a genious by his village, was about to kill a strong Jonin level Sai with a simply rush+kunai, put fear on Kakashi's division members by just releasing his chakra, and was held in a pedestal by Kabuto, who though he was the key to winning the battle against that division. Another member of the Seven Swordsmen, Chojuro, one of the 2 strongest Jonin of the Mist, admitted to not standing a chance against him.

    Zabuza also challenged the Mizukage, and while he failed (implied to have lacked manpower), he said he didn't lose the battle. In fact, he was willing to attempt a second coup.


    Bottom line :

    He's seen as quite below the Sannin, Itachi and Hiruzen. But the Sannin and Itachi are the shit in verse, they're far above the base Kage level line. Hiruzen too was considered the strongest of the Gokage back in pt 1.

    So nothing contradictory there.

    Ok that was all, thanks for reading.
     
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  2. WorldsStrongest

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    Not really tho

    All Itachi says is itd take a lot longer than they have and would draw the attention of the entire village

    Basically all Itachi says is a restricted Kisame wouldnt destroy him
    Thats cuz he does

    By feats, Kisame chews up and spits out WA Kakashi

    Only thing that makes that even half a debate is Kamui
    He doesnt disagree with the fact that shitting out an ocean in town square will raise eyebrows?

    Yeah I wonder why
    Kakashi only knew of Kisames vague reputation

    Thats it

    And actually, even after Kisame learns kakashi killed Zabuza, he gives no fucks and literally says hell destroy kakashi

    Even tho Zabuza put Kakashi through the ringer and was a tough match for him, Kisame gives no shits about throwing down with someone capable of beating Zabuza

    With Asuma not 5 feet away no less
    And admitting inferiority to a guy so far out of your league that no one youve ever met whos still breathing can beat him ina fight is "humble" somehow?

    You sure youre not confusing modesty with pragmatism?
    Thats actually incorrect

    Itachi and the others arent aware of Konoha reinforcements until AFTER Gai shows up and tells them

    Gai is the one who raised the alarm, not kakashi

    Kakashi went in half cocked on his own to back up Asuma and Kurenai and got laid out for a month
    And considering Itachi used way less than his full effort and still lol diffed Kakashi at every turn, we can safely assume his expectations of Kakashi werent that high
    As a Jonin

    Sasuke was legit a crowd draw and a spectacle during the Chunin Exams that people from other countries wanted to see fight as the last Uchiha

    Doesnt mean hes Kage level
    Not in part 1 he isnt



    Think youre doing this thing where youre trying to apply general in universe hype about Kakashi throughout the entire series to P1 Kakashi specifically

    Which is real dishonest
    See?

    Pain considers it an honor to know PART 1 KAKASHI?

    No

    No he does not

    And all Kisame says is that hes flattered Kakashi knew OF HIM, not the other way around
    Not in Part 1
    Whos Jonin level in Part 1 as well
    Whos likewise compared to kakashi

    Thats literally it

    They are both each others measuring stick, thats useless information
    Above
    Exactly
    By Jonin standards
    No?

    Pretty sure he tried to kill a Daimyo
    Cuz he is
    Lol
     
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  3. FlamingRain Retired Staff

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    Kakashi said it was the Mizukage, but he had backup and still failed so it doesn't say anything other than how villainous Zabuza was.
     
  4. ~Kakashi~

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    It's also worth noting Itachi's knowledge of Kakashi's abilities would come from a time before Kakashi had gotten rusty, so his warning to Kisame would have been about a stronger Kakashi. Tsunade also confirms this, wondering why Kakashi couldn't do better against Kisame and Itachi(her knowledge of Kakashi's abilities would have come from the reputation he earned in the ANBU). It's a common mistake, people take reputation statements at face value in the manga and don't consider the context surrounding it.

    And being Gai's rival doesn't make him Gai's equal. Every indication we're given in part 1 actually(although it's not much) is Gai > Kakashi. Sasuke makes a comment about how Gai is even faster than Kakashi in base as well, implying the physical jump between Kakashi and Gated Gai would be enormous. Gai at this point is likely able to use all gates, but at the very least should be able to us the first 6 if we scale off Lee who was capable of it at 16 or w/e he was in the WA.

    ANBU Kakashi could have been kage level given reactions he receives throughout part 1. Part 1 Kakashi was not. No one who passes out after 10-15 minutes of using the sharingan with a couple of suiton and taijutsu encounters without any kind of trump card technique, and whose physical abilities are noted to not even be the best among his village's jonin(and is even more out performed when the jonin that does surpass him uses his best abilities).

    Kakashi's entire thing in part 1 is his ninjutsu mastery, which he can't even utilize effectively in a kage level battle due to chakra restraints.
     
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  5. Ayala

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    @WorldsStrongest

    That's your opinion, and how you picture the match going. I could say Kakashi shock feints Kisame, and kills him with a no presence Raikiri strike from behind, that he can't do shit about.

    So the best thing we can do in these cases is stick to the statements and intent.

    Itachi literally says Kisame won't get away scott free, and taking too long gives time to the reinforcements to come.

    Kisame saying he'll rip Kakashi to shreds is him going overboard, basically everyone present there doesn't take that seriously. Kakashi doesn't even consider him while Itachi tells him to back down, as he's talking shit. From there on, Kisame agrees.

    It doesn't matter with what diff Itachi beat Kakashi (which wasn't low diff btw), his expectations of Kakashi remains that of being able to put up a tough match to Kisame. And Kakashi exceeds that.

    There's no such thing as praised and respected "for a Jonin".

    The translation is wrong, Jiraiya and Tsunade are actually ok with him taking the Kage seat. And the other Kages who were ok with him taking the Kage seat too, went off pt 1 hype, as they'd have no way of knowing Kakashi's pt 2 feats, or about his performance against Pain.

    Yeah, tell me what's Pain referring to when he says he's honored to meet Kakashi. His past hype and status, or his pt 2 version who had battles behind closed doors, and all of them being mini battles themselves and nothing extraordinary.

    Zabuza fought the Mizukage i believe.
     
  6. Charmed

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    He's only Kage level after the 3 years timeskip, and that's because he has Kamui, and at the BoS, it's unreliable.
    Pt1 he's an Elite Jounin, to be on par with Kabuto.
    Kabuto is definitely not Kage level in PT 1.

    There's just a huge difference between a Kage and an Elite Jounin.
    :aww your article was well done, though.

    :thumbsup
     
  7. Ayala

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    In this coup, the outnumbered one would be Zabuza, as his followers are always less than the Mizukage's followers.

    @Charmed thanks :kthumb
     
  8. FlamingRain Retired Staff

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    In total, but that wouldn't matter because the Kages generally don't keep more than like two people around at once. I doubt Zabuza would have struck while outnumbered.
     
  9. Lee-Sensei

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    Kakashi was probably on the high end for a Jonin in Part 1, but Gai being Ionin Level in Part 1 makes no sense. He had access to at least 7 of the 8 Gates Pre-Skip.
     
  10. Ayala

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    That's when they're out in diplomatic meetings. The coup happened in the Mist, it makes no sense for the Mizukage to have less people with him/her than Zabuza.

    Zabuza may not have stuck while outnumbered, i can agree. But we can't say the Mizukage was outnumbered either, it makes less sense.
     
  11. Lee-Sensei

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    This all makes a lot of sense and it’s something that I don’t think that I’ve ever really considered.
     
  12. FlamingRain Retired Staff

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    No it's in general too. Almost every time we see a Kage in their office there's only one or two more people there.
     
  13. Ayala

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    Ok, but the whole country is gonna run by his side the moment the alert is on.

    Anyways, what we can gather from this is the fact that Zabuza fought the Mizukage, and doesn't think he's outclassed, and that Zabuza's dangerous enough to pull a coup with a few goons and manage to get out alive, which is more than i can say for simple Jonin levels.
     
  14. Cherry

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  15. Shazam

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    Too much in depth analysis.

    Much of the manga is less context and much more literal.

    Cant imagine why people could think otherwise
     
  16. Orochimaru op

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    So basically when Kisame says he’d be a tough match we should believe him regardless of feats but when Kisame says Jman would neg diff him in base we should totally disregard what Kisame says because feats.

    Ok then.
     
  17. Orochimaru op

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    Btw if Kakashi by part one is kage level when he has four chidori to his name, then good lord my favourite Orochimaru would be way beyond high kage like Jesus.
     
  18. Orochimaru op

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    Well Gai wasn’t even thought of as a potential hokage at all. Not even mentioned.


    Hmmmmmmmmm
     
  19. Shazam

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    Not a single time at all.
     
  20. WorldsStrongest

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    What is this in reference to?

    Kisame not caring about fighting Zabuzas killer backed up by Asuma?

    Kisame throttling 3T WA Kakashi?

    P1 Kakashi not having Kage level accolades from ANYWHERE?

    Cuz those are all facts
    P1 Kakashi cant do this...So Im just gonna assume this is in reference to WA Kakashi vs Kisame
    And what about the fact he managed to tag a Kakuzu who DIDNT EVEN KNOW KAKASHI WAS IN TEH FIGHT makes you think he can tag an on guard Kisame?
    Statements and intent put Kisame as > a V2 Perfect Jin level fighter

    When that base Jin was able to throttle all of Team Taka which 3T WA Kakashi wouldnt be able to do in his wildest wet dreams

    Kisame himself throttled all of Team Gai at 30% of his power...Love to see Kakashi do that...
    While in a village where Kakashi has 2 Jonin as backup one of whom is standing literally shoulder to shoulder with him

    And states that the fight will only add to kakashis advantage as more Shinobi will show up

    Itachis statement is VERY heavily implying Kakashi alone is not the issue there
    Really isnt when we look at all Kisame can do
    Itachi does

    He literally tells Kisame to back down not because hed lose, but because itd take too long

    And besides when have the opinions of would be victims not caring what their murderer says 2 seconds before killing them held any merit?

    So what if they dont take Kisame seriously?

    Theyd still freaking die
    No he doesnt
    Was absolutely low diff

    The dude was holding back on Kakashi massively and still led the dude around by the nose

    He even held back on Tsukuyomi, again,

    Tsukuyomi was also mad overkill, had they continued fighting and Itachi actually tried, Kakashi was dead with the next clone feint

    The man could barely follow Itachis sandbagging speed with Ninjutsu seals either

    With Asuma 2 feet away and Konoha reinforcements on the table you mean

    Sure there is

    I literally just gave you an example of it
    This isnt an argument and no actually it isnt

    Thats the official translation
    No they actually arent

    Tsunade, while DRUNK proposes him off hand, and Jiraiya, NOT drunk, says "lolno"

    Post skip Kakashi still isnt Kage level

    And has no Kage level showings or hype mind you
    Yeah certainly not like it had been 3 years of training and missions and improvement between that they could be citing

    Add to that its certainly not possible they can get behind giving a highly skilled Jonin their fair shake at the Kage hat

    Theyve CERTAINLY never done that before

    Oh wait...Yes they have...Suna literally allowed GENIN GAARA to become Kage
     
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  21. Lee-Sensei

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    He wasn’t considered for Hokage in Part 2 either. Are you going to tell me that he was Jonin Level?



    Kishimoto was pretty clear on him being Kage level and he has the feats, hype and stats to back it up.








    Its also worth mentioning that Danzo was passed over multiple times and he was going to be passed over again in favour of Kakashi until he grew a temper tantrum. You probably don’t consider Kakashi stronger than Danzo, right? The Daimyo wanted to choose people from the WoF line. Orochimaru, Minato, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Tsunade, Kakashi, Naruto and even Konohamaru are all a part of it.
     
  22. Orochimaru op

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    I don’t think Gai is jounin level, just that his part one self probably is. Power inflation and all. But it holds true for both kakashi and Gai that they weren’t hokage level material until the war.
     
  23. Lee-Sensei

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    Kakashi and Kabuto were top Jonin and we were told that Kakashi was rusty and that Gai was stronger than him. At a bare minimum, he would be on the lower end for a Kage. Than you can factor in that he had at least 7 of the Gates and probably all 8. In Base he was already comfortably faster than Kakashi. You can also scale from Lee’s feats. He was uprooting trees in Base and shattered the arena by running with the 4th Gate. Kakashi needed his Sharingan to track him. Gated Gai would be far stronger and faster than that version of Lee.

    The last point is Hirudora. Yamato recognizes that as Gai’s technique. It’s unlikely, that they’ve done a lot of missions together since Yamato spent most of his career in ANBU, but his familiarity with Hirudora heavily implies that Gai has had it for a long time. High end Jonin like Asuma and Zabuza, don’t come anywhere near that level of power. Even if we take into consideration the power inflation, everything points to him being Kage level Pre-Skip.
     
  24. Orochimaru op

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    They weren’t kage preskip. They were introduced to as as jounin, we were supposed to gauge what a jounin was based off of them. They weren’t even mentioned for hokage, instead they went looking for the weakest of the sanin, and when she refused they still went for her. Kakashi and Gai were jounin level, and that’s how they were shown to us.
     
  25. FlamingRain Retired Staff

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    Who said that other than Gai himself?

    Not counting that one kid cosplaying as him.
     
  26. Lee-Sensei

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    1) That doesn’t mean anything. Most Kage level ninja are Jonin. Still, you’re right about one thing. They weren’t Kage level. Gai was.

    2) We were supposed to gauge what a Jonin was based off Kakashi, Kabuto and Zabuza.

    3) You didn’t really even adress my points. How is someone with access to all 8 Gates just Jonin Level? He was comfortably faster than Kakashi in Base, he had Hirudora, was hyped up by Itachi and we were told that he was stronger and that Kakashi was rusty while Gai never stopped training. Kakashi collapsed after a few chapters of using his Sharingan. Gai was doing 500 laps around the village on his hands the year before the story begins.

    4) All the evidence points to Gai being Kage level Pre-Skip.
     
  27. Lee-Sensei

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    It was the chapter after Lee wiped the floor with Team 7 and in the same chapter that we were told that Neji was the top Leaf Genin. The authors intent was clearly to show that the main characters were not the best at that point. There was a stronger team of Genin with a stronger Jonin leading them. Sasuke said that he was stronger. There really is no reasons for Kishimoto to have Sasuke agree that Gai was stronger.



    More importantly, it was backed up by the feats. If you have an argument for Part 1 Kakashi beating Gai with Gates 6 and up... I’m all ears.
     
  28. FlamingRain Retired Staff

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    Sasuke is just listening to Gai there, and Gai is clearly playing himself up if he's mentioning his win-to-loss ratio with Kakashi considering a lot of those matches were just silly games. Gai told Lee when they were alone (in other words, when he wanted to be real with him) that he was even with Kakashi, not stronger, and otherwise Kakashi is the one commanding more respect and the one referred to as top Jōnin by the guidebooks.

    Taking Kazekage Rescue Arc Gai's performance against Kisame and scaling back from it to account for the timeskip Kakashi could just play hide-and-seek until the gates wear off.
     
  29. X III

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    Yeah, imma have to say no to this.

    Please try to conceal your Kakaboner and keep your pants on. Thank you very much. :kanyeshrug
     
  30. Architect

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    Yeah

    DB1, when Hiruzen was still alive.
    And I mean why not? PI Kakashi would beat old Hiruzen high diff.
     
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