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Power levels and skill in fights

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by Jouninja, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    In Dragonball Z, I noticed a pattern: If a fighter was at least half the powerlevel of their opponent, had mastery of some sort of fighting arts, and went all out, they could make it difficult for somebody twice their power to win without that person using some sort of ultimate attack.

    Example 1: Goku vs Nappa
    Just before Goku went Kaioken, he was early on stylin' on Nappa and outmaneuvering him, but once Nappa got serious, he was able to make it hard for Goku to win, which he admitted he wouldn'd be able to win without using up a substantial amount of energy, eventually Goku had to use Kaio-ken and go all out at 12,000 to finish him quickly.

    Example 2: Raditz being wary anytime he read a powerlevel half his own.
    I noticed during the Raditz arc, that anytime he read a power level of 700, he'd look worried, such as Gohan's 710 or when Goku and Piccollo where approaching and their powerlevel together was around 700. That lends to the theory that somebody with a powerlevel of 700 would make things difficult for somebody who's power is 1200 to 1500.

    Example 3: Goku vs Frieza
    At least from back in the *old days when it was "official" that Frieza's powerlevel at 50% was 6,000,000 and Goku was using Kaio-ken x10 for most of the fight, putting him at 3,000,000(as his base was said to be 300,000 back in those days). Basically, Goku was the Nappa of the fight, and so he was giving it his all and giving Frieza trouble. Unlike the Goku vs Nappa fight where both where pretty much 100% skilled in their fighting arts, Frieza doesn't really have a mastery of fighting, and just uses his brute force in a more simple manner, closing the gap between Goku and Frieza and allowing Goku to not be outright killed by Frieza even when using his best attacks thanks to his skills in the martial arts. The skill difference would also explain why Goku couldn't be defeated at all by 100% Frieza despite their powerlevels being 15,000,000 and 12,000,000 respectively.

    *(And I say these where the powerlevels in the old days, because when you search powerlevels now, you get ridiculous websites claiming Frieza is 60,000,000 in base form, which is ridiculous, if it's coming from an official source, it must be a misprint, since Piccollo, who was sub 1,000,000, managed to kick frieza away from Goku before the Spirit Bomb scene. It would have been possible if the difference was just at 1/6th, but not at 1/60th, Nail and Frieza where at a 1/10th difference, and none of his attacks even budged him.

    Now, once you get beyond twice the power, such as say three times the power, then the weaker opponent is at a big disadvantage. This is shown in the Goky and Piccollo vs Raditz fight. He was easily handling them at their 400+ rating versus his early to mid 1000s. He could have defeated them easily had he been trying, but his hubris, plus attacks from powerlevels nearly equal to his own such as from Gohan, allowed him to be defeated.

    Some scenes that may not support this, is the whole Vegeta fiasco on Namek. He managed to quickly dispose of fighters like Dodoria and Zarbon like he was at least three times their power(based on the fight with Goku and Piccollo vs Raditz) but the data books show his power being 24,000 at max while Dodoria was 22,000 and Zarbon 23,000. Unless they where only showing what the scouters read and Vegeta was indeed capable of higher, but even then, by the time the Ginyus showed up, Vegeta is said to only be 30,000 during his initial fight against them max.

    So the only explanation being that Dodoria and Zarbon are just unskilled fighters who rely on brute force to win, and when faced against a master, even a 10% power level difference is enough to get them beat up like their at 1/3rd the power(this would also explain why Dodoria couldn't outright kill pre-power up Gohan and Krillin).

    So basically, effectiveness in combat is powerlevel x skill and you get the true fight rating of a warrior.

    So using the examples above, it is possible to guess what the power levels are in future arcs and a rough guess at what the difference is in power. We are even given a glimpse of "power levels" again in the form of Kilis(?) during the Buu saga, and it is possible to connect to previous Arc through the statement that Dabura was as strong as Cell(I don't remember if Super Perfect Cell or just perfect cell in general?)

    Anyways, that is my analysis on power levels and how the differences effect fights.
     
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  2. Batzzaro29 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to post my power level chart(post Frieza).

    Ssj Goku : 150,000,000
    17 : < 150,000,000
    18 : < 150,000,000
    Cell : < 150,000,000
    Semi Perfect cell : < 300,000,000
    Perfect cell : < 450,000,000
    Ssj 2 Gohan : < 900,000,000
    Base Goku/Vegeta(Buu) : < 9,000,000
    Ssj Goku/Vegeta : < 450,000,000
    Ssj 2 Goku/Majin Vegeta : < 900,000,000
    Ssj 3 Goku : < 3,600,000,000
    Vegeto(Base)(18,000,000(Goku + vegeta) x 400) : < 7,200,000,000
    Ssj Vegeto (18,000,000 x 400 x 50) : < 360,000,000,000


    Before someone gets wrong impression i'm not saying above power levels are correct, in reality those numbers should be way more higher.

    But those are the numbers you get if you calculate by using stated multipliers and using Ssj Goku's namek power level as basis.

    For example i calculated ssj2 Gohan by his statement of being at half of power when he was injured, Then we have Perfect cell and Ssj Goku(Buu) being at 450 million, its possible that 450 million is their suppressed power level but Cell can go way higher than that or maintain that same power level way longer then Goku can, or both.

    Its actually kind of makes sense when you think about it.

    While Ssj Goku and Perfect cell started equal, Goku gradually lost stamina and couldn't even fight cell jr.

    But there is claim that supreme Kai being thousand time stronger then Frieza... Then again its came from shin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  3. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to mention this, but I noticed that if somebody at half the power level of their opponent shoots off a casual Ki Blast(examples: When Nappa threw one at Goku early in the match, when Imperfect Cell used an uncharged Galic Gun on Vegeta, or when Vegeta used a blast on Super Perfect Cell after Trunks went down) they all can block it by simply using KI, wether a Ki scream or just simply bursting their Ki aura around them. You gotta charge a Ki attack to make it hurt on somebody twice your level or more.

    @Batzzaro29 Yeah, I have no idea where people think that power levels sunddely went x10 off what happened in Namek, it's a bit ridiculous, IMO. Is this from the same chart that says Namek Frieza is 60,000,000? Piccolo who was at barely 1,000,000 would have imploded from a single punch from Frieza, the way Cell Jr's did to SSJ2 Gohan.

    Funnily enough, I did find an old powerlevel chart from 15 years ago that looks a bit more accurate(I agree with the SSJ2 Gohan power level in it, although I can't find it.) Most of the power levels list from that time "knew" Goku was at 15,000,000 and not 150,000,000.

    Example(not the one I was looking for, and a lot of the power levels are a bit too much around the Android saga):


    For example, a lot of people think Frieza and King Cold are somehow stronger than 12,000,000, it's not like they started training like crazy after Frieza's defeat, and if anything, Cyborg Frieza would be weaker since he probably can't buff up and use 100% power. So 5,000,000 to 8,000,000 is probably the range he's capable of. King Cold is probably under 10,000,000, or if he really is in a second form similar to Frieza, then probably 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 and just knew he wouldn't get the chance to transform against Trunks. So it's safe to say Trunks would be somewhere around 11,000,000 to 18,000,000, making him way stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek just seems a bit off. At least that way, it leaves room for the androids to be weaker and not get these ridiculous numbers later on because of insane power creep that occurs to the point where people have to list power levels in the billions by the Buu saga. :catfish

    And Im actually doing this because I eventually plan to make a game that uses a similar fighting system, eventually. :catcane
     
  4. Fang Titan

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    Anyone else old enough to remember on the early days of the internet, watching bootlegged Dragon Ball Z "unedited" Japanese original dub videos on RealPlayer and PlanetNamek being the definitive source for everything Dragon Ball? Good times.
     
  5. Gifted Banned

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    If you're close to someone in power...techniques amd fighting skills can help close the gap and even defeat them.
     
  6. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    @Fang Yes, Planet Namek! Good times! Use to visit that site often. I would also see glimpses of future arcs, like while we where still in the early Frieza saga, I saw the clip of Gohan going SSJ2 and was like "I have no idea what's going on, who this green bug guy is, or how they got to this point, but this is the most epic thing I've ever seen ever".
     
  7. redrum

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    second form freeza is roughly 1mil

    post nail fusion piccolo was edging him out, so he's around that number too

    third form freeza bodied that same piccolo without even trying, so a reasonable number would be 1.5/2mil

    then, you have final form freeza shooting death beams so fast that only post zenkai vegeta could see them, so he's above piccolo to a sizeable degree; if i had to guess, he was around 2mil

    and he couldn't even put a dent in final form freeza who goku could easily keep up with prior to freeza outputing 50% of his max which allowed to completely dick on kkx10 goku and even a x20 multiplier khh was canceled out by freeza with only a little bit of effort

    so this 'ssj goku is 15mil and freeza is 12mil' legit does not fly anymore
     
  8. Gogeta Shape shifter

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    Far as i understood SSJ Goku and Freeza were close in power, if not Goku slightly edging him out, but the real reason for Freeza's defeat being his shit ass stamina

    Didn't Freeza run out of juice in his 100% form in like 3 in-universe minutes

    When Freeza was returning to Earth, he was confident because he had his 100% power without the drain, correct?

    I mean, that could mean Freeza was actually slightly stronger PL wise than Goku on Namek, but on the other hand Freeza was dumb enough to think Goku wouldn't get a Zenkai boost even though he saw Vegeta and Gohan get boosts out their ass
     
  9. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    @redrum I was reffering to the scene where Goku was powering up the spirit bomb, and Piccollo saved him by kicking Freeza away with a powered up kick, afterwards Frieza is beating him up. If Frieza's powerlevel was 60,000,000(as db related wikia sites are claiming widely now) and not 6,000,000, Piccollo would have exploded from a single punch.

    For example, if you look at this site from like 15 years ago, in the Frieza arc section, it is stated, from official sources at the time(anything official is in green text, white text are guesses):



    @Gogeta He said that he was at full power while in cyborg form? Interesting, it doesn't even list that in that page I linked, which checks all the official sources they had. It would make more sense if Robot Freeza's max is just 12,000,000 since on that page it was putting it at 25,000,000, which is ridiculous since Frieza stated he never trained a day in his life up until the Resurrection of F saga.
     
  10. redrum

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    i know what u said and ur thinking too much into it

    its blatant pis/cis since if freeza just oneshotted piccolo right then and there, he would've successfully merked everyone else since it was only with that small scuffle that bought goku enough time to launch the genki dama

    except its wrong, plain and simple

    at the start of his fight with freeza, goku is well above vegeta who is well above piccolo who is over 1mil

    so, let's lowball him to 2mil just cuz

    at 50%, freeza completely dicked on x10

    so, a power level of 20mil did absolutely nothing to freeza

    at x20, goku would be at 40mil

    freeza lulnoped his khh with minimal effort

    so, a power level of 40mil + a khh basically did nothing to freeza

    as a ssj, goku gains a 50x multiplier; that puts him at 100mil and freeza at 100% isn't too far below that figure

    mind you, this is a LOWBALL

    so, those power levels are prolly a mistranslation
     
  11. Crimson Dragoon Red Eyes

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    True Form Freeza never fought Piccolo aside from anime filler

    12,000,000 and 15,000,000 are mistranslations, 120,000,000 and 150,000,000 are the real numbers

    Link removed

     
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  12. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    @Crimson Dragoon Right, that's what I'm talking about, and who's double checking this new guys work? Who's telling the truth? We need somebody to double check this. :catroll I mean, if you look on the page with the 5 digit powerlevels, the japanese symbol is right between the 1 and 8 of Vegeta's 18,000. Sure, this new guy is reading those kanji symbols right, but what if he is misplacing that extra 0 by misreading their positioning?? Why would the 5 digit powerlevels all have a symbol a decimal place away from where the arabic , would be??? Is there somebody to dispute or confirm this???

    I had the image posted here, but it won't let me link or post it, but it's the one with the Frieza saga power levels on there.

    Well, either way, it seems impractical that they would skip the 7 digit and even 8 digit powerlevels so quickly(which they could have taken 2 or 3 arcs worth of enemies to get through, as people previosly thought with the android/cell saga power levels all falling under the 100m range) and go straight to 9 digit powerlevels of over 100,000,000 so soon(but then again, it was said the series was gonna end then, but I'm wondering if both Greg Werner and his friend weren't wrong and something else is going on like a misprint or a misread of the original documents???). Oh yeah, forgot to mention this, BUT there is a scene in the anime briefly showing the powerlevels of Goku and Frieza being read from one of the bases on a Freeza planet just before exploding from the overload, and the numbers clearly read 15,000,000 and 12,000,000, dang, I need to find that scene, that could be a big clue to what the actual powerlevels are since its straight from the anime.

    @redrum It states in the above that Goku's power level is 300,000 base form during the start of the fight(or 3,000,000 for some)(although the reason he can keep up with Frieza is because he uses bursts of x10 Kaioken so fast that you don't even see the red aura. In fact, I remember a scene where King Kai telling the Z fighters that Goku was already using KaoiKen against Frieza since the start of the fight, oh here it is(0:53 if it doesn't already start there):


    But yeah, what I'm saying is, 300,000x10 is 3m, and x20 6m, equal to 50% frieza 6m(or 60m for the others, but I say blasphemy!!)

    When he uses Kaioken x20 + Kamehameha, since he didn't even charge it and just insta-blasted the attack, Frieza was able to hold it off with 50% power and negate it with his own ki blast.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  13. redrum

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    @Jouninja dude, goku didn't start to use kaioken til freeza jumped up to 50% :dead

    idk how you think goku was only at 300k despite performing infinitely better against the same freeza piccolo couldn't even see move and who brutalized vegeta, both of whom are 1mil+

    just stop this already :dead
     
  14. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    @redrum Well, until somebody can fact check this new guys claims, I'll have to yield on the power levels thing for now.

    Although that video I linked showed at the start the same scenes where it looks like he isn't using Kaoiken, later in the vid, the same scenes are shown, but with the Kaoiken aura, so it's a mastery Goku achieved to be able to use Kaoiken discreetly up to x10 at that point is what I think. Although I do admit it's weird that he can react to Frieza's movements in base form and get it up to x10 just in time to block or attack. Only plothole to this x10/x20 Kaoiken thing regardless of whatever the actual powerlevel is. :catroll

    Anyway, I'll just wait till somebody who is japanese confirms what the heck is going on and lay to rest. i still can't believe they jumped so high with the power levels all this time if it's true and not just somebody spreading misinformation.
     
  15. redrum

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    @MShadows pls lay any and all doubts to rest for this man's sake:tiredpepe
     
  16. MShadows Deathbat

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    My pleasure!


    When Goku landed on Namek he was at 90k. After having his body stolen by Ginyu and then beaten like a sack of potatoes by Vegeta he got an immense Zenkai and shot up to 3M.

    300万 is 3 million, and SSJ Goku is pegged at 1億5000万, wich is 150 million, while 100% Frieza is 1億2000万, which is 120 million.

    Also, 50% Frieza is 60 million (obviously) and Goku started using Kaioken in response to Frieza powering up to this amount. At first he went 10x (30 million) in an attempt to hold his own...

    But after seeing how even that wasn't enough he decided to go 20x (60 million) to test whether Frieza was bluffing or not on whether he was actually using 50%.



    And then it got confirmed that he was actually using 50%.
     
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  17. Jouninja Well-Known Member

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    @MShadows @redrum I wasn't really disputing the 50% and KaioKenx10 part, although that was a good read. :sphinx

    What I wanted to know is that on this other Frieza saga page(with SSJ Goku bottom right) with powerlevels above 10,000 they are spelled 1(kanji)0,000?? Such as Vegetas, Krillins, and Gohans powerlevels near the bottom middle? Then again, it comes down to the kanji then adding an extra decimal.

    I guess the mistake Greg Werner made was believing the standard used for 5 digit numbers was the same for numbers in the millions and the "," just simply went a single decimal place to the right of whatever kanji was denoting the number!?? :catstabbed

    I guess that is where the original misconception came from, and I wouldn't blame them, they probably couldn't believe that the powerlevels jumped, literally exponentially, and thought they where reading the KANJI wrong and 150,000,000 and such couldn't possibly be the actual powerlevels? In their disbelief, they just took off a zero since it looked like it made sense. :catwave

    All that's left is to find that scene of Frieza's goons reading the powerlevels on the screen and seeing the numbers that started with 15 and 12 followed by a ton of 0's. :catroll
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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