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Reiatsu and Vaizard Masks

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Giorno Giovannax, Oct 17, 2006.

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  1. Giorno Giovannax

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    I got another question that has been nagging for a while as well and actually it is a two part question.

    1. Do we define the level of spirit pressure by size or how strong it is (basically, by quantity or quality). The reason why I am asking is because everyone who knows Ichigo has a "big-ass" spirit pressure, not on the level of Aizen, but still big since people like Ishida and Hirako have described it that way. When I first thought of that, I thought that it meant that he has alot, meaning that he can use much more than a normal shinigami, but that does not mean that it's much stronger than the next and the since his spirit pressure manipulation sucks, it leaks out alot more than needs. But I just wanna make sure that I get this, so thus do we measure spirit pressure by its size or by its quality?

    2. Now, I was also analyzing the recent arc when Vaizard Ichigo bust through the scene against GJ. At first, I thought that he had gotten stronger as soon as he put his mask against GJ. But then something struck me. Since Shirosaki and Ichigo have the same base power, then what kind of boost would Shirosaki really give Ichigo in terms of spiritual pressure. I mean, when a zanpunkto goes from shikai to bankai, there is a boost because bankai is alot stronger than shikai. But Shirosaki isn't stronger than Ichigo, so how would Shirosaki's spirit pressure surpass GJ's if GJ is stronger than Ichigo and thus stronger than Shirosaki.

    Another proof is when Hirako put his mask.

    communist green
    communist green
    communist green
    communist green

    Look here, the only Hirako did when he put his mask was going and bust a cero on GJ. That is all he did, no sign of huge power boost or whatsoever, just that he performed a hollow technique.

    So, here's my theory:

    Vaizard Mask = gives the shinigami access to their hollow's reiatsu, thus increasing their reiatsu quantity and thus enables them to perform hollow-based techniques since they now have access to their hollow's reiatsu.

    If this seems like a dumb question, I'm sorry but I really need to get this cleared-up or at least see what people think since I hate the fact that it's nagging me and also I can use the info I get from this thread into my Bleachverse Analysis in the meta-battledome.
     
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  2. Trias

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    Well, the problem here is, even though it seems like that (and I think like that too) we still don't know whether Shirosaki's Base Power = Ichigo's base power.

    But well, we already know that Vaizard Mask does not give them a reiatsu boost, at least, not a noticable amount of it, since both Vaizard and Bankai Ichigo was unable to cut GJ with their bankai. This isn't shown solidly either but, since Vaizard Ichigo directly used Kuro Getsuga Tenshou without trying to cut GJ at all, we can pretty much assume that.
     
  3. blazingshadow

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    shirosaki is probably able to use the full potential of ichigo while ichigo can't so that is why he is stronger when he fights with ichigo. when they work together via mask it is 1 + 1 or something like 2 x 2 of course. it is like ichigo using both his positive (shinigami) potential and negative potential (hollow) rather than just one or the other.
    reiatsu = spiritual pressure while reiryoku = spiritual energy that makes reiatsu and everything happen much like chakra. ichigo leaks reiryoku at a set reiatsu level but he has enough to last for 6 o 7 days in hiyori's workout machine so it doesn't matter that it does. ppl leak reiryoku normally but in ichigo's case it is a lot more than the usual.

    the mask allows you to surpass your limits as a shinigami that is all.
     
  4. Predator

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    I do not think that Shirosaki and Ichigo's power levels are the same. my proof is here

    see how Ulqui says one power lvl is trash (ichigos) and the other exceeds his own (shirosaki).

    I think that Shirosaki is on a different playing lvl than Ichigo.
     
  5. Mori`

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    I think that that is their two reiatsu combining to be honest, as shirosaki's starts to leak into and mix with ichigo's there are spike in the reiatsu being released. Sort of like naruto going into his first kyuubi form if you'll forgive the analogy
     
  6. Trias

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    You are forgetting a fact: When Shirosaki takes over the body, it is not Shirosaki's own self, it's the body and power of Vaizard Ichigo's. And Ichigo < Vaizard Ichigo. So Ulqy's comment.
     
  7. Giorno Giovannax

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    But see, you gotta remember that both Ichigo and Shirosaki were fighting for control. I think it's more that when both their reiatsus started to combine together (like a Vaizard) and went at their highest, they were stronger than Ulquiorra but then they went much lower because Ichigo was supressing Shirosaki but needed to use so much of his reiatsu that it reduced it to near trash. Basically, they were at pre-Vaizard level i.e they started to mix together but lacked the mask to make it complete.

    I still say that Shirosaki and Ichigo are at base power or else Shirosaki wouldn't have even given tried to lend his power to Ichigo and Ichigo wouldn't have been able to absorb Shirosaki into him. I mean, why lend your power to someone who is weaker than you.

    Like I said, Shirosaki looks stronger because he is a much better fighter than Ichigo and has that killer instinct that Ichigo lacked.
     
  8. jonat3

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    No, the base power of both Ichigo and hollow ichigo are the same. I'll explain how i see the relationship between the two later on.

    The reason a hybrid is so powerful, is because a hybrid has access to 2 kinds of reiatsu at once. Shinigami reiatsu and hollow reiatsu. Shirosaki is NOT stronger than Ichigo. It's just that he's better able to utilize Zangetsu.

    The strength of reiatsu is based on both quantity AND quality. Ichigo has both. He has massive reiatsu, but also SOLID reiatsu. Zaraki has also solid reiatsu, which is why his body can take attacks without being fatally injured. Heck, the arrancars go even a step further and use a special technique to harden their skin. The quality of that reiatsu is even better than Zaraki's, because the reiatsu is used in a better, more advanced manner. Also, the reason Ichigo could block the soukyokou was that his reiatsu was better quality. He had less reiatsu than soukyokou, but his sword had more COMPRESSED reiatsu within it. The soukyokou clashing against Zangetsu would be like 1000 rocks bashing against diamond.

    I'm under the impression that a hybrid is MORE than twice the reiatsu one would normally have. I think it has the same benefits as bankai, meaning 5-10 times more powerful, not just 2 times. A hybrid has thus a larger quantity of reiatsu available. However, since controlling hybrid powers are so difficult, alot of discipline is required. Which is also the reason that hybrids who are fully in control also have good quality reiatsu.

    Now, be prepared for one BIG post of mine from another board, which explains how i see the relationship between shinigami and hollow:

    pirate booty

    Above link also describes why Ichigo can't control his hollow for more than 11 seconds.
     
  9. Giorno Giovannax

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    Amazing post, truly amazing.

    Also, it explains the personalities of the Vaizards and why they don't act all righteous or good-goody like Ichigo and pretty much selfish or just don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. I mean, look at Hirako and the way he acts like he doesn't really care about alot of things. Thus, it means that they are more neutral than Ichigo and thus possibly are able to control their mask for longer and also able to compress it and use it in a more advanced manner than Ichigo.
     
  10. ketsuekiTheVaizard

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    Shinigami have a set individual reiatsu level, and hollows eat to gain power, but not all hollows can become vasto lordes, so they have a set power level as well, each must work to be able to control this power, but the only way for a shinigami to surpass this limitation is to become a vaizard, and the cooperation succeeds in an increase in the reiatsu itself,not the combined ability to use it which is actually what they measure in power, of course they can also measure the power in spiritual pressure, which is the current flow of reiatsu through the shinigami, not the total amount. So, vaizards are only able to tap into the limitless reiatsu through their cooperation with their inner hollow. Also, I say limitless because they are able to increase their own power without limit, it isn't automatically limitless.

    Also, Ichigo never had good control of his reiatsu, which is a likely reason he cant maintain his mask, and he propably can't do the demon arts very well either, and the other vaizards are all former ranking shinigami, shinko was even a captain, so their neutrality spawns possibly from a need to surpass their limit as a soul reaper, which was the same need as ichigo, although he was pressured to join due to his inability to control his hollow.

    Oh, and hollow ichigo would likely be more powerful than ichigo, simply because of the power exchange that occurs when a normal spirit becomes a hollow, if a spirit becomes a hollow, their reiatsu and ability to use it are magnified, so, the hollow ichigo is a magnification of ichigos normal strength.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2010
  11. CM Pope

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    It wouldn't really make much sense.

    Love put on his Mask against Starrk and seemingly his attacks got stronger. Hachigen put on his Mask to defend against Barragan too, not to mention the fact that they all wore their Masks to fight the Gillians and hardly used Hollow Techniques.

    Definite proof?

    Bankai Ichigo does a Kuroi Getsuuga Tenshou - Grimmjow blocks and is barely hurt.

    Vizard Bankai Ichigo does a Kuroi Getsuuga Tenshou - Grimmjow is badly wounded.

    Even if you factor in the fact that Grimmjow only had one arm, even he was shocked at the increase in Ichigo's strength. Want another? Bankai Ichigo tossed Dordonni away like a bad habit, but with his Mask on he was so fast Dordonni lost sight of him.

    Also, Ulquiorra seemed quite sure that the Mask = More Power AND Tousen put on his Mask showing increased strength without using Hollow Techniques too.
     
  12. Vai

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    Spoiler: lol
    he was clearly talking about Yammy :del :del
     
  13. Noitora

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    Clearly Vai, Clearly.

    As obvious as manga proof comes.
     
  14. Bakusaiga

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    S=R/C

    S= Strength
    R= quantity of Reatsu
    C= ability to Compress and pressurize

    Your reatsu is something you're born with. Some have more, some have less. In some, the power is latent, and others it is awakened. The strength one possesses is equal to the ability one has in compressing their reatsu. Captains such as Soifon don't have an immense amount of reatsu, however, her compression capabilities are highly efficient, giving her above average strength. Kenpachi and Ichigo have unfathomable amounts of reatsu and poor compression of it, as shown by their constantly released zanpakto. The senior captains such as Kyoraku, Ukitake, and Yamamoto have incredible amounts of reatsu as well as superior compression control, making them the top tier soldiers of the Soul Society. For Ichigo to reach their level and beyond, he needs to master the compression of his reatsu, referenced by Ulquiorra's comment of his fluctuating power level. It's not his amount of reatsu that changes, but the compression and pressurization he subconsciously controls over it.
     
  15. Battoumaru

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    You're wrong.

    He basically says "A moment ago, Ichigo's low reiatsu level made Ulquiorra pass him off as trash. But now his reiatsu (Not his Inner Hollow's) has fluctuated to become greater than his (Ulquiorra's) own." Indicating that Ichigo's reiatsu level fluctuates wildly. (Further Evidence can be seen by looking at his road through the Garganta compared to Unohana's as well.)
     
  16. blacklusterseph004

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    Looking at the terms, I was under the impression that spirit particles are reishi which is the energy. Reitsu is a pressure metric, as in the density of reishi in a particular place. As such:

    Looking at spirit pressure (reiatsu) by 'size' seems meaningless to me, since that is clearly not what defines the course of a battle. While a spirit is an area of spirit density (since it is composed of spirit particles), a zanpakuto would be an object of even higher spirit density, where spirit particles are compressed to the point that they become a lethal edge.

    Referencing Kenpachi's dialogue about pressures that clash, the meaning to me explains the mechanics of a zanpakuto. How much damage a shinigami spirit can do is determined by how much reishi than can form into the edge of their blade (the reiatsu of the edge). In a clash between edges, the edge with the lower reiatsu will break (as Kenpachi explains it). This can be further extended to the spirit to some limited extent if there isn't sufficient fighting will. In Kenpachi's case where he fought Ichigo the first time, the density of the reishi escaping Kenpachi's skin proved to be higher than the density Ichigo had compressed into zanpgetsu's edge.

    I'll link this back then to Ichigo being noted as having a high reiatsu. As a spirit, he is for some reason, an unusually high concentration of spirit particles. While this is true, it doesn't immediately translate to the damage he can do because as I said, what matters is how much of those spirit particles he can stuff into the edge, which turned out to be not that much when he first arrived in SS. Since shinigami like captains are experienced, even if their total reitatsu as a spirit is not fantastic, they have enough experience, training and fighting will to compress what they have into an edge that can overcome even the most powerful hierro.

    What this means then is that Ichigo has a massive amount of reishi to draw on, which will eventually allow him to forge an edge that very few blades will be able to stand against. I suspect as a spirit lives and survives battles (read Urahara explaining why Ichigo's reiatsu increased when he almost got killed by Ururu), the extent of the reishi it develops will increase, allowing for larger reiatsu as in the case of captains.

    Of course the converse to this is hollows, who stockup reishi by consuming it, eating other menos grande who themselves are composed of the spirit particles of the countless spirits they have consumed. This culminates in the arrankar who off the bat have massive amounts of reishi to call on just like Ichigo and the determining factor being how well they can collect that reishi into a powerful reiatsu. We know they stuff alot of reishi into their skins giving it a high reiatsu.

    So in terms of whether you measure reaitsu in size or quality, the answer would be both, remembering that reiatsu is already a pressure metric (a density of spirit particles) so a being with moderate amounts of reishi can still form a weapon with a high reiatsu edge, and the question of quality would relate to that level of efficiency, being the ratio of total reiatsu into useful reiatsu (such as a zanpakuto edge or arrankar hierro).

    Well, the answer to this might be how the hollow part compresses reiatsu compared to the shinigami part. It is possible that the mask produces a jump in spirit particle density because the hollow part is able to produce higher levels or reiatsu (reishi density) purely by instinct, no training required. This would explain why a senior captain would still have a superior reiatsu to a visored, since all the mask has done it allowed the shinigami to skip a significant number of years or reishi control and compression into reiatsu, achieving the same effect through the insticnt of the hollow.

    This would imply that while the potential of the visored is higher than an ordinary captain, the shinigami part must still continue to train to build the base pool of reishi. A frightening way to bypass that limitation would be to consume other spirits as hollows do, building the base pool of reishi by consuming it. This might be a dark capability of the full hybrid, gaining the ability to consume reishi and rapidly advance the growth of its overall power.

    On the technique side, the mask strength is certainly related to the new set of hollow skills the visored gains, all of which are learned almost purely on instinct (the hallmark of the hollow self), but I would venture a theory that every single hollow ability can be replicated by kidou provided it has been adequately researched. Mayuri and Urahara prove this with the creation of the gargantua through a kidou incantation.
     
  17. Kri

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    Sweet mother of necro, what the hell? This thread is from 2006.

    Of course, blacklusterseph writes a post I don't have the heart to delete... I suppose there's no harm in ignoring the fact that people are arguing with an OP who very well may never log in again.
     
  18. blacklusterseph004

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    This thread's reiatsu has become strong over the years...
     
  19. Kri

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    In size or in quality?
     
  20. Vai

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    .... I never even noticed the date :lmao
     
  21. Kri

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    Atypical of my normal response to necroposting, I'll just lock this and spare the post-2006 contributions. The thread won't be buried, but I should still keep it from growing spammy. And, I shouldn't encourage another tea-esque spam thread sans the behest of my partner.
     
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