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Resolve, or Lack Thereof - A Similarity Between Ichigo and Orihime

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Talone, May 31, 2007.

  1. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    This is my first actual thread, so be kind smile-big

    I just realized something the same about the both Ichigo and Inoue: they both lack the necessary resolve to attain their true potential.

    Both of them have great potential for power, Ichigo's potential for growth is ridiculously high, and Inoue has powers "violating the realm of Gods." But the only problem is, both lack the "true" killing resolve/desire for vengeance to use their powers.

    Take Ichigo. We know that Ichigo's greatest asset is his potential; he was able to become a Shinigami in spite of being transformed into a Hollow in the Shuttered Shaft, he achieved Shikai in several days, and Bankai in several days. In that time he also managed to essentially master Zanjutsu and Shunpo to the level where he could defeat three Vice-Captains barehanded and go toe-to-toe with a Shinigami Captain much more experienced than he was (Byakuya).

    During Yammy and Ulquiorra's appearence in Karakura, when Ichigo arrived, he was handling Yammy quite easily. And then, during his struggle for control with his inner hollow, Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated, to the point where it was way below, to way above Ulquiorra. During this time he was getting the life beaten out of him by Yammy, and was saved by intervention from Urahara and Yoruichi.

    Now in the more recent chapters of Bleach, Ulquiorra brushed off Ichigo's attacks quite easily, even in his Masked Bankai form. My theory? Ichigo's still holding back. After his battle Privaron Espada Dordonii, Dordonii holds off the Exequias and has a small internal dialogue, which is very necessary to the purpose of this thread:

    "...And now, I will do what I can to thank you. [Referring to holding off the Exequias]

    Those who exist from this point onwards aren't as sweet as I am. Don't be irresolute when you slash down the enemy. Never hesitate in dealing the killing blow. And more than anything else, do not heal their wounds. Such acts are unspeakable, nino!

    Leave your chocolate here and become a demon, nino.

    Just as strong as a demon, and just as wicked. You must realize that the only way to stand up to the coldhearted....is to become coldhearted yourself.

    Because if you don't, nino..."


    (Bleach, Chapter 254, Deja Chocolate Aqui, M7 Translation)

    This is an important lesson imparted from Dordonii which I don't think Ichigo has quite taken to heart. Dordonii is telling Ichigo to abandon his mercy, his kindness (both references to the "chocolate"), otherwise, he will surely die.

    We have yet to see a moment where Ichigo is truly coldhearted, cruel, and fighting without quarter. He must become what he fears most: a demon, which is what he basically sees his Hollow self as. His Hollow half is the embodiment of what Ichigo is missing.

    During Ichigo's fight with Byakuya in Soul Society, there was the point where the fight was going Byakuya's way, and Ichigo was on the verge of losing consciousness, until his hollow took over. It attacked with reckless abandon and ferocity, pulling no punches and attacking Byakuya relentlessly. It was an uncivilized, animalistic fight reflex, which wounded Byakuya more than he had been the entire fight with "normal" Ichigo. His hollow half relished the battle, essentially enjoying toying with Byakuya; it was a pure desire to fight and do as much damage as possible, without thought or care toward his enemy.

    We have yet to see any of that from Ichigo himself. We know that Ichigo's reiatsu level CAN be higher than Ulquiorra's, yet now he lies in Hueco Mundo, the life fading (or already faded) from him, beaten by Ulquiorra without a second thought. Ichigo still retains his "chocolate", and as a result, he lies as a broken heap from a coldhearted opponent who he could not bring himself to become as coldhearted as.

    Just compare Ulquiorra's overall demeanor to Ichigo's, and there is a distinct difference. Ichigo is quick to show emotion, expressing extreme anger upon realizing that Orihime was taken to Hueco Mundo as a result of Ulquorra's actions. Ulquiorra, on the other hand, has not a hint of anger or emotion within him, simply a stone-faced facade. He defended a Masked Bankai Getsuga Tenshou with his hands, and punched through Ichigo's chest without battering an eyelash. And upon the revelation that Ulquiorra was only the 4th Espada, he adds coldly:

    "Kurosaki Ichigo...You cannot defeat me. Even if you were to defeat me, there are three more Espada above me. Even if you were to stand against me a thousand times....you would lose."

    Ichigo still lacks the killing resolve to do what is necessary to get Orihime back. He may be guided by a reason to fight, but he lacks the willingness to lose some of his humanity, to become a demon, in order to win.

    ---

    Moving on to Inoue, her Hairpins (the Shun Shun Rika), have three different powers:

    1) The power to reject events outside of a shield, usually manifested in a physical "wall" which blocks attacks.

    2) The power to reject events inside of a shield, i.e., Orihime "rejecting" the occurence of injuries/death and returning the object/person to the form she desires it (before said injury/death, typically)

    3) The power to reject "events" within a plane of space (Tsubaki's ability to "cut" things in half by rejecting the space that exists on his plane of attack)

    Now, when looking at all three abilities, one would believe that Inoue is a true force to be reckoned with. But not quite. Why? As stated by many characters, it's not in her personality to be a warrior. She lacks the necessary resolve to use her powers to their fullest potential.

    Tsubaki's been used three times in battle, once succesfully (the first time against Hollow/cannon fodder), and twice unsucessfully (Jirobou in Soul Society, Yammy in Karakura). The first time, the resolve to protect Tatsuki was enough to cut through a run-of-the-mill Hollow. But the next two times, the resolve to protect simply wasn't enough. Orihime lacks the resolve to fight, to hurt, to kill.

    Tsubaki is an unstoppable weapon in the right hands. His ability allows him to not really cut opponents, but to destroy the area on the plane of attack, something much different. She basically can deny the fact that there is something holding together two halves of a body, in what may seem like "cutting it" in half, when it actually simply denys the space of the bonds which hold the body together. That is something that cannot be blocked like a sword.

    But of course, the power of Tsubaki and the other Shun Shun Rika are dependant on Orihime's willpower. If she does not put enough will/intent into her attack, someone with a stronger will can simply crush Tsubaki's attack. The question is, whether or not Orihime will muster the courage and the will to kill her opponent. She must rid herself of her own innocence, her own kindness, and her own mercy.

    Both she and Ichigo are more similar than they could ever know. Both want to summon up the resolve to do whatever it takes, but for now, they fall short of that.
     
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  2. Red Keep Cool, Carry On.

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    Nicely written and well thought out.
     
  3. ez Jesus Christ

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    I don't believe we'll ever see Orihime as a fighter although she probably has the strongest attacking force so far. It can't just be about will power, her reiatsu has to be higher as well for it to be effective against the likes of the arrancar. I should also add that Orihime isn't really lacking resolve atm. She's decided to stay in HM so that she could try and get rid of the hougyoku while her friends have come to fight for her. She's looking out for the "greater good" by sacraficing herself.

    As for Ichigo, he's always struggled when it came having the resolve to fight his opponents all the way from Urahra's training, to Renji's fight, to the Kenpachi fight. I'm not sure about him holding back against Ulquiorra unless he was afraid that the hollow would take over. He was raging more than we've ever seen him do so before so I imagine this was him at his strongest but I could be wrong. He could still be holding back. Ichigo doesn't seem to be lacking resolve when he's fighting for something he believes in but otherwise he does lack it.

    good first thread ;)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  4. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

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    ichigo has resolve, thats why he defeated his hollow and gained masked form.... his resolve manifested as kenpachi. orihime of course lacks attacking resolve but she posseses the resolve to heal and protect those precious to her of course. dordonni is an arrancar, he is telling ichigo to basically be evil... ichigo shouldnt listen to such advice
     
  5. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    I don't think its necessarily telling Ichigo to be "evil", but more to show no mercy to those who give him none.
     
  6. Yulwei Afrodisiac

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    Orihime's reiatsu is greater than that of a 10th seat in the 11th division and that was way back in the SS arc who knows what it is now. Anyway as I was saying in my other thread Ichigo overcame most of his resolve issues due to being trained. Unfortunately people choose to deny Orihime the same training. Let's face it other the pathetic excuse for training(in comparison to Ichigo's) given by Yoruichi and her sparring sessions with Rukia Orihime has recieved no training at all. Even Chad has recieved more training than she has it's ridiculous.
     
  7. Mori` <blink><font color="#DAA520">Sunshine.</font></bli

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    A nice first thread. I couldn't really agree more, especially regarding Ichigo. We've had the resolve theme hammered home for ages, from as far back as Urahara's training. Hopefully he might take on board a few of those points and we'll see a new Ichigo, one who isn't evil but who's willing to do what is necessary (now there's a thin line if I ever saw one >_>).

    Regarding Orihime I think you summed up her future development in an attacking concept very well with the last sentance "She must rid herself of her own innocence, her own kindness, and her own mercy." However I think her kindness and mercy are what have let her event rejection inside a shield type powers become so strong (as she primarily uses it to heal) so she has to find a delicate balance as well.
     
  8. SiSL The Hun

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    Great summary.

    Personally I'm getting tired of loop: Ichigo getting beat first, then getting resolve, then forgetting it again. Rewind... Almost in every fight. For once, I want to see him up and standing without regretting and cut enemy with a single blow without long ass fight unlike Rocky movies without his hollow. I'm pretty sure, even without his hollow, Ichigo can be quite capable. Hollow is just his merciless / fearless side. Being fearless half of winning already.

    As for Orihime, I do not share the idea of she needs to be a fighter. Because she is not a fighter, she is a lover .. (okay that was cliche) anyway, she is not suitable for fighting to death or hurt anyone. Agreed with moridin above, her sensitivity is main source of her powers.
     
  9. Allen89 Taichou

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    I agree, if Inoue had the mentality of Shirosaki, she would probably easily own Aizen. She'd erase the realm of HM with Tsubaki. +Rep
     
  10. Yulwei Afrodisiac

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    Considering that the people they supposedly kill are not only already dead but also more likely to wind up in SS in a purified form than cease to exist I fail to see why anyone would feel qualms about "killing".
     
  11. Segan 100th Dan Brawler

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    Very well written. I completely agree.

    Ichigo is pretty unstable, so he rarely is able to tap into his full potential.

    As for Orihime, well, her personality is too peaceful for her abilities to be used in combat. But if it ever happened, it would be quite devastating...
     
  12. Kuroro Skill Hunter

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    Nice thread. If anything, it has been noted on several occassions that both Ichigo and Inoue lack killing intent, which hurts more than it helps. I do believe this arc may lead the foundations for both characters to tap into their max potential since it is important to be merciless when it is necessary, something that both Ichigo and Inoue are not willing to do.

    Reps.
     
  13. mutluna Member

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    Ichigo lacks killing intent but not fighting intent. Orihime, on the other hand lack fighting intent that she showed it clearly on many occasions. fighting =/= killing so I think Hime and Ichigo are quite different.

    As for the thread, ironically I'd say resolve is the difference between Hime and the others, including Ichigo, so I guess I have to disagree with you here.
     
  14. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    Ichigo has plenty of resolve, but unfortunately for him it seems that the necessary amount of resolve to fully use his powers is exponentially increasing. So no matter how much resolve he gains, it's never enough.

    Orihime, OTOH, has never shown true resolve to kill / fight / whatever since her first battle with the Hollow that attacked Tatsuki, and Jiroubou seemed to think that that level of attack wasn't enough to hurt a Shinigami (or presumably Arrancar). So she is still at the ground level.
     
  15. Aflean Murdering, in cold blood, a

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    Inoue has the ability to shoot her Tsubaki inside the middle of things, then reject both sides of the barrier, and rip through things as if they were never attached, if she gained bigger reaitsu and control of her abilities, she may be able to fight the Winter War.

    With Ichigo, I loved reading, re-reading, and re-re-reading the few chapters with the "Chocolate". In Japanese, Naiive is also the word for sweet (to my knowledge) so that it can mean either. The saying in Japan if someone is very naiive, is to be "As sweet as chocolate" as this means they are VERY naiive. Dordonii realises this, after Ichigo gets his ass handed to him in his Shikai form, then is about to be hurt badly in his Bankai form.

    If only Dordonii was psychic, and he told all of this to Ichigo, Ichigo might have almost nearly maybe heeded nearly almost some of the words Dordonii said... Enlightening Ichigo to the world he lives in, and averting his eyes from the role of the good guardian he has been playing from chapter 1.

    Brilliant thread, and brilliant thoughts, I think that although Ichigo wasn't physically holding back with the Getsuga Tenshou against Ulquiorra, it was probably lacking in that oh-so important "killing intent" all of his previous Shinigami enemies (and Grand Fisher) were talking about. I think there is a mental block to actually wanting to kill anyone, as he has never actually killed another human (don't start about his mom...).

    My reply was almost as long as your post XD. Gome.

    -- Eliot --

    EDIT:

    HENCE WHY DORDONII IS ON THE FRONT COVER OF VOLUME 28!!! KUBO TAITO OBVIOUSLY MEANT US TO READ MORE INTO HIS WORDS!!!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  16. @lk3mizt Well-Known Member

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    wow. very well thought out thread. +reps. i was really surprised when you showed all the similarities between ichi and hime..

    :offtopic

    ichiXhime ftw!
    :ruri
    +reps fer ya!
     
  17. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    Thanks for bringing up the point about the meaning of "as sweet as chocolate" in Japanese culture, it was something I was meaning to bring up (but I forgot completely what it was), and then I asked my friend about it today and remembered it all over again.

    It has rather significant meaning in the title of the chapter, and its content in reference to Ichigo, which I don't think many people realize straight off the bat. I've noticed Kubo makes some rather significant statements toward the overall story within some of the chapter titles, like "Don't Kill My Volupture", and of course, "Deja Chocolate Aqui".
     
  18. moonflowers And the rain stopped...

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    Great thread. :) While I can agree overall that Ichigo and Orihime are fundamentally kind characters who would never wish to harm anybody if they can avoid it, Ichigo is willing to do significantly more damage than Orihime is. Ichi's always stopped short at killing, but he definitely felt no qualms about cutting Kenpachi and Ikkaku, and he positively relished giving Byakuya a hard time and leaving a Getsuga Tenshou scar across Grimmjow's chest. Orihime, on the other hand, doesn't seem to enjoy taking down anybody, not even enemies.

    I personally feel Ichigo's problem is definitely not one of lack of resolve. He managed to obtain bankai in a grueling less-than-three-day stretch of training, which proved to me that he was an indestructible ball of resolve if nothing less.

    His "problem," as his inner Hollow battle demonstrated, was that although he's got plenty of drive and power, he always needs a reason to fight. He got into a nice scrap with Ganju (absolute stranger then) over something as trivial as Ganju insulting his shinigami status, but he refused to fight Ulquiorra (a known enemy!) until the latter finally revealed that he was the one who kidnapped Orihime. That latter incident, which occurred after the inner Hollow fight, illustrates that Ichigo is having a hard time learning to fight just for the sake of fighting.

    Personally, I don't think that's a particular "problem" right there. If Ichigo abandoned his sense of justice and his fundamental kindness, and began fighting for any reason or no reason at all, then he would be less of a character in my estimation. Kenpachi, who fights just for the heck of fighting, was presented to us as a menacing amoral figure at first, someone who only understood the primal dance of predator and prey. (Now his attempts to get Ichigo to fight him again are just comic relief...)

    If Ichigo wanted to, his raw power would probably be enough to steamroll over a good portion of the population, but he keeps it in check with his self-restraint and kind nature; it's why Byakuya is even alive now, for instance. It's one thing to be strong, but it's something even more profound (and heroic!) to show strength tempered with kindness, and I've always admired Ichigo for that.
     
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