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Russian Orthodox Church breaks ties with Constantinople

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by mr_shadow, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The Russian Orthodox Church will have to break eucharistical relations with Constantinople over a split with Ukraine's Orthodox Church, Alexander Volkov, spokesman for Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill, was quoted as saying by Interfax on Thursday.

    Earlier on Thursday, the Synod meeting in Istanbul backed Ukraine's request for an independent, "autocephalous" church and reversed the excommunication of Patriarch Filaret, who hopes to lead the independent church.

     
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  2. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Wonder if the worldwide Orthodox Church will excommunicate Putin? :catskully
     
  3. Island In the Sun

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    >Constantinople
    >2018

    ?????

    Edit: Oh, I see. The church in Istanbul refers to itself as Constantinople.
     
  4. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Yup.

    The Eastern Orthodox Church still has its headquarters in Istanbul because it used to be the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. When the Turks conquered the place they decided that the Patriarch could continue living there if he wanted to, since Christians are a people of the book.

    I suppose it was a good way to appease the recently-conquered Christian population, versus beheading the guy and starting a holy war. Having him in walking distance from the court would have also made it easier to spy on the church leadership and make sure they didn't try something funny. The Patriarch being effectively a hostage in the capital of the Caliphate might have also dissuaded Christian rebellions in the provinces.

    AFAIK the liturgical language of Patriarchate of Constantinople is still Greek (the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire prior to the Turkish conquest), which means they read the Bible in the "original" version: the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament + the untranslated New Testament.

    [When the Old Testament is quoted within the New Testament, it follows the Septuagint, so if you're Orthodox you might take this as meaning that particular translation has Apostolic approval]
     
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  5. DarkTorrent Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the Patriarch of Constantinopole has that kind of authority tbh, he is not the orthodox version of the Pope
     
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  6. Mider T VM Rapist

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    I thought the Patriarch lived in Alexandria?

    And I still don't fully understand the reason for them breaking ties.
     
  7. Alwaysmind 总是心神

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    It’s called Istanbul now. Maybe you missed the memo.

     
  8. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    The Church area is still Constantinople, it's basically Vatican in Rome just without the whole being allowed to be own country bit.

    But the russians will come crawling back, they always do. So will the wayward patriarch in Rome!

    Also as a name Istanbul makes no sense. It basically comes from the Greek phrase meaning "To the city."
     
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  9. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The Eastern Orthodox Church originally had four patriarchates:

    * Patriarchate of Constantinople (in charge of Europe)

    * Patriarchate of Alexandria (in charge of Africa)

    * Patriarchate of Antioch (in charge of Asia minus the Holy Land)

    * Patriarchate of Jerusalem (in charge of the Holy Land)

    I think nominally there is also a Patriarchate of Rome, i.e. the Vatican, but after the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated the Pope (and vice versa) the Catholics are obviously not in communion with the Orthodox anymore.

    Over time a number of other patriarchates and archbishoprics have branched off from the original four, mostly from the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

    The Eastern Orthodox Church currently has 14 top-level divisions, which is perhaps soon to be 15 when Ukraine secedes from the Russian Orthodox Church, which is what all this is about.

     
  10. Island In the Sun

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    There's a theory that Yucatán means "I don't know what you're saying" because it's what the natives told the Spanish when asked what their land was called.

    So, yeah, Istanbul as a name isn't so bad...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  11. Alwaysmind 总是心神

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    I was making a joke.
     
  12. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    My understanding is that when Ukraine was part of first the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was a subsidiary of the Russian Orthodox Church. Meaning the archbishop of Ukraine had to ask the Patriarch of Moscow for permission when making major decisions.

    When Ukraine became an independent country in 1991 they didn't update the church organization to reflect the new national boundary, so the UOC is still a branch of the ROC.

    That obviously became awkward after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. So some patriotic Ukrainian priests I guess went to the Patriarch of Constantinople and said they'd like to be an independent top-level division on equal footing with the ROC.

    I suppose in recent days the Patriarch must have said "yeah, that kind of makes sense", so now the ROC is saying they're gonna quit the Orthodox Communion and start their own communion - with blackjack, and hookers!
     
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  13. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The Patriarch of Constantinople is called the "first among equals", so as someone said he doesn't have the same power over the other patriarchs as the Pope has over other bishops, but apparently he can still be called upon to mediate disputes among the churches.

    So in this case if the Archbishop of Kiev first said to the Patriarch of Moscow that "I'd like to become independent" and got the reply "get fucked", he could apparently appeal to Constantinople for a second opinion even though Moscow is (since branching off in the 16th century) on the same level as Constantinople in the organizational chart.
     
  14. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Russia vowed on Friday to defend Russian church believers in Ukraine from any illegal activity against them following Kiev's moves toward a historic split from the Russian Orthodox Church.

    Ukraine wants to establish a national church, free from its traditional ties to Russia, which it says is a vital step to tackling Russian meddling in its affairs. Moscow opposes the move, arguing it would cause a schism in Orthodox Christianity.

    The Kremlin's comments could inflame tensions between Kiev and Moscow, whose relations collapsed following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the outbreak of a Moscow-backed separatist insurgency in eastern Ukraine.

    Critics of Ukraine's plan for an independent church say it could lead to violence and forced takeovers of churches loyal to the Russian Orthodox Church.

    President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov laid out the Kremlin's stand.

    "In the event that the events which are developing take the course of illegal activities, then of course, just as Russia defends the interests of Russians and Russian speakers - and Putin has spoken about this many times – Russia will defend the interests of the Orthodox," he told reporters. "This is an absolutely grounded and absolutely understandable position."

    Peskov said the defense would consist exclusively of political and diplomatic measures. However, to Kiev his comments were uncomfortably close to the language used in the run-up to the Crimean annexation and the separatist rebellion.

    "We have heard similar messages on the 'protection of the Russian-speaking population' from the Russian Federation as justification for its aggression against Ukraine," Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Mariana Betsa tweeted.

    Ukraine secured approval on Thursday from a synod in Istanbul, seat of the global spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians, to establish what is known as an "autocephalous", or independent, church.

    Late on Friday, Putin discussed the decision with members of the Russian national security council, the Kremlin said in a statement.

    The next step is for Ukraine to reunite its various strands of Orthodox faith in that new church, which includes deciding the fate of church buildings and monasteries, some of which are aligned to the Russian Orthodox Church.

    "I urge against provocations and speculation," Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov wrote on Twitter.

    "The Ministry of Internal Affairs will ensure security and law and order. If there is a need to prevent extremism and religious hatred, it (the ministry) will act rigidly - and let it not come as an unexpected surprise for the 'hotheads'!"

     
  15. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    The first among equals thing was basically what constantinople inherited after Rome got kicked out.

    The Pope was never supposed to be ruling over the others bug ego made them think they did.
     
  16. zeroantizero Well-Known Member

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    Part of the problem is that, at least in areas that are, or were formerly, under Rome, "Eastern" can refer to two different groupings:

    1) any church not under Rome
    2) any church not under Rome or Constantinople

    So there's three groupings Western (Roman), Eastern (Orthodox) and Eastern (none of the above, or depending on your zeal "heterodox").

    Of the third, the largest of the churches is Alexandria's.

    As for breaking ties, it's all due to the ecumenical councils of the 4th and 5th centuries. Over the course of these councils, any bishop who refused the new, single, "ecumenical" teaching was expelled from communion with the others. The final split between Rome/Constantinople and the rest was affirmed at the Council of Chalcedon, which is why, collectively, the Catholic and Orthodox (and non-evangelical Protestant) churches are known as Chalcedonian Christianity.
     
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  17. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    AFAIK the last group usually called "Oriental Orthodox" rather than "Eastern Orthodox". (Even though "Oriental" etymologically also means "Eastern")

    The Oriental Orthodox churches are fascinating because they seem to have converted more or less independently of the Roman Empire and therefore preserve some pre-Roman traits. Perhaps the most famous example (which you alluded to) is the Coptic Orthodox Church whose Bible and liturgy is in fucking Ancient Egyptian rather than Greek or Latin.

    There is also a community of Oriental Ortodox in India who claim they were converted by Thomas the Apostle, within one generation of Jesus' death. At one time I thought this sounded like complete fiction, but actually the distance from Jerusalem to New Delhi is "just" 4000 km.

    Quick Google says camels can walk 40 km per day in good weather and road conditions, so the trip would have taken "just" around 3-4 months. So provided Thomas had some advance intelligence to motivate him ("there's a billion people over there waiting to be converted!") and somewhat reliable directions, I wouldn't rule out that he really could have travelled to India and converted the first Indian Christians.
     
  18. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Are you culturally Greek Orthodox or Anglican?

    'cuz I'm sensing a lot of anger here. :maybe
     
  19. zeroantizero Well-Known Member

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    I can see it. Following the major trade routes, there's no reason anyone couldn't get from the far western end of the Roman Empire to the far eastern end of Sassanian Persia in a "reasonable" time.

    The only thing stopping Rome and China really communicating other than distance is the Persians being all "go no further, there be dragons".
     
  20. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Also I'm kind of hopeful that we're moving towards Christian reunification.

    With all the threats from Atheists on one side and Muslims on the other, Christians have more incentive than before to set their petty differences aside in the struggle for survival.

    I think we are within an inch of Catholic-Lutheran reconciliation. Which wouldn't mean that Lutherans suddenly become subservient to the Pope again, but the two would enter a communion where they recognize each other's sacraments as valid. E.g. since I was baptized and confirmed by the Church of Sweden I'd be allowed to attend mass in a Catholic church and partake in all its rituals, if I wanted to. It'd be kind of like how when you go abroad your cell phone usually still works because your domestic provider has a deal with the local provider that you're allowed to use their network if you need to, but they might charge you a roaming fee, so it's not exactly the same.

    After such a "re-unification" of Western Christianity the next step is obviously reunification between the Western and Eastern churches. I don't know if that'd be easier or harder. Sometimes I feel like Catholics have more in common with Orthodox than with Protestants, since they still worship saints and monastics while "we" don't.
     
  21. Island In the Sun

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    lol this analogy
     
  22. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    It's not entirely wrong. :maybe

    Over in Macau there is a separate "Protestant cemetery" where all the English, Dutch, and Swedish sailors who didn't make it home are. They weren't allowed in the "real" cemetery.

    And presumably there are no Protestant churches in MC either, so the traders of for instance the Swedish East India Company would have had to bring along their own priest (and hope he didn't die en-route!) who'd provide the weekly eucharist for them aboard their ship or in some other nondescript location.

    If we can get rid of this sort of pointless degradation of the other it'd be great.
     
  23. zeroantizero Well-Known Member

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    I can see them working together in areas of mutual interest, but I think unity or full mutual recognition is unrealistic (that said, Anglicans and Lutherans seem to be moving towards it).

    But nowadays, at least with the Catholic Church, priests will take spiritual care of individuals of other churches where those individuals don't have access to their own priests (e.g. a warzone). I think other churches do it too, but I wouldn't be able to name them.
     
  24. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    I've been baptised both (Extremely unreligious though) and was half asleep trying to be somewhat humerous sarcastic while posting. Not reccomended.
     
  25. Undertaker elect the dead

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    Crusade! :blobknife

    Ukranian Orthodox Church should use this opportunity to look more progressive and pander to EU: softening on gays etc. Maybe EU will throw them some reward.
     
  26. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The Russian Orthodox Church said on Monday it had decided to sever all relations with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in protest over its endorsement of Ukraine's request for an "autocephalous", or independent, church.

    Speaking in Belarus after a meeting of the Russian Church's ruling body, Metropolitan Ilarion, a cleric, said the Holy Synod had been left with no choice but to sever ties with the Patriarchate in Istanbul, seat of the global spiritual leader of roughly 300 million Orthodox Christians.

    Ukraine last week secured approval from Constantinople to establish an independent church in what Kiev said was a vital step against Russian meddling in its affairs, but that the Russian Orthodox Church lamented as the biggest split in Christianity for a thousand years.

    "A decision was taken to completely sever ties," Metropolitan Ilarion told reporters in Minsk, the capital of Belarus, announcing Russian retaliation against Constantinople.

    "No other decision could have been taken by our Holy Synod because the logic of all the actions taken recently by the Constantinople Patriarchate led to this."

    The Russian Orthodox Church has compared Ukraine's moves for independence to the Great Schism of 1054 that split western and eastern Christianity, and warned they could lead to an irreversible rupture in the global Orthodox community.

    Ilarion said Constantinople's decision to back the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's independence drive was illegal and that the Russian Orthodox Church would disregard it.

    "We are hoping common sense will prevail and that the Constantinople Patriarchate will change its relations to existing church reality," he said.

    The tussle over Ukraine's spiritual future flows from the poisoning of relations between Kiev and Moscow after Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the outbreak of separatist fighting in Ukraine's east that has killed over 10,000 people.

    The Moscow Patriarchate, which is aligned with the Russian Orthodox Church, long dominated in Ukraine but since the 1991 Soviet break-up has been challenged by a rival known as the Kiev Patriarchate.

    Ukraine accuses the Russian Orthodox Church of wielding a pernicious influence on its soil, allowing itself to be used as a tool of the Kremlin to justify Russian expansionism and support of separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine.

    The Moscow Patriarchate denies its church is a security threat to Ukraine and, far from being a Kremlin stooge, says it has done much to promote peace in the country's east.

     
  27. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    I guess for the Orthodox this is as devastating as if Brazil broke with the Vatican.
     
  28. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Eastern Orthodox majority countries

    1. Russia
    2. Ukraine
    3. Romania
    4. Greece
    5. Belarus
    6. Bulgaria

    7. Serbia
    8. Georgia
    9. Moldova
    10. FYR Macedonia
    11. Cyprus
    12. Montenegro
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018 at 7:43 PM
  29. Undertaker elect the dead

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    I c wut u did thar :blobevil
     
  30. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    All jokes aside though I can see why ROC has issues with a seperate ukrainian one, since essentially ROC was basically founded in Kiev. But even Greece has it's own church seperate from Constantinople. Well for Greece it's a bit crazy due to timeline of Liberation of different parts of the country (From 1821 to 1947).

    Pre 1913 areas are pointing towards Athens, Crete and southern Islands have essentially a semi autonomous church from constantinople, while post 1913 areas are still fully under constantinople (Macedonia, Thrace, half the Aegean Islands). But it's not like the churches are getting upity about it. Russian church in the end should just get over themselves. That is if Putin isn't puppet stringing (Which wouldn't surprise me if he was).
     
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