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Sanji vs Vergo

Beast

Probably higher than a kite
Pal I do not even care about the Usopp issue. Not to mention that anyone who has a working brain knows that Rufy was heavily sandbagging against Ulti, and that Usopp "tanked" Ulti's hits by being down like a carpet, hardly I would call that tanking, and anyway that happens many arcs and hundred of chapters after Punk Hazard. So your argument is awful. Anyway it's not even a matter of that.

This seals the deal. This destroys any possible "what if". If one is not biased, of course.



Sanji's reaction, his expression, everything implies that he was concerned that if the fight would have continued then he would have lost. And he is admitting in his own mind, with a sincere and spontaneous thought.
And he did not blame the previous damage that his body received as the reason for his bad outcome. He did not say things like "If only I wasn't damaged previously" "If only I had my body in perfect shape" "I would have defeated him if only I wasn't in this condition". No. He just reflected in his own mind that if he continued to fight against Vergo then the latter would have defeated him.

And Sanji thought that, after witnessing a Vergo who was heavily holding back. He didn't even know that Vergo was holding back his most powerful assets. The Vergo that fought against Smoker and Law would have destroyed Sanji. It's only simply logic.
A basic non CoA kick from Vergo already heavily damaged Sanji's leg; then a CoA Onitake would have smashed Sanji like minced meat.
Sanji's Diable Jambe kicks could not do any real damage to Vergo who is not using CoA, who tanked them with the utmost ease; then Sanji has no chance in hell to do real damage, let alone put down for good, to Vergo who is using Full Body CoA.
Sanji himself in his own mind admitted inferiority to Vergo without even know the latter was heavily holding back.

It's just pure logic. It's clear as day. The gap was massive and was showed. The inferiority was even stated. How can one argue this!?
Lol... so you’re excuse is that Luffy was sandbagging if you say so buddy.

and I mean you can try to downplay as much as you want but anyone with a brain can tell the Ussop has already tanked at least one before the second one we saw and yet... he is still conscious.

it does matter because I didn’t bother reading past that pathetic try at downplaying Sanjis damage going onto face Vergo.

if I cared for the rest of your shitty argument I would have just said so.
 

Chaos Hokage

Hokage of the Distant Future
This is a tough one. I think Vergo would've won back then but with major difficultly. He did to fracture Sanji's leg bone a little bit during their brief encounter.
 

convict

He who Greets with Fire
Retired Staff
He was literally limping afterwards from one casual swipe from Vergo's leg :hestonpls

He would get absolutely wrecked by a Hakified bamboo to anywhere in his body and unfortunately this is before the raid suit so endurance/durability is a major weak point of his. He wouldn't be able to tank multiple of those.

I also don't buy "Sanji wills himself to win!"

Sanji has never beaten someone stronger than him in a fight like Luffy and Zoro have. The closest thing was Jyabura but he was already stronger than him and it was implied he had learned DJ before the fight. If it were Luffy or Zoro I could maybe buy that they would transcend themselves during the fight to beat someone clearly portrayed as stronger - as they have done so multiple times - and in Luffy's case it can get downright revolting. But not with Sanji.

I really enjoy that Sanji doesn't rely on plot to win and Oda simply gives him a good fight against a weaker opponent. But he always struggles against stronger ones and it doesn't help his case here.
 

Mylesime

Well-Known Member
Vergo was portrayed as stronger than Sanji, but anyone claiming that they were on a different tier, thus making Sanji's win unbelievable is either a liar or has difficulties when it comes to reading comprehension.
@convict, how can someone seemingly reasonable be such a hater? How the fuck can you seriously claim and be so vehement about the fact that Vergo was on another level.
It's funny, i swear to God, at first i thought you were trolling but you legit seem to believe this shit:
:tupac

Folks reminded everyone of the different parameters of the situation, i'm not even bothering over analyzing every single panel and moves.

It's just common sense. Vergo, Sanji and Smoker were all portrayed as relatively close.
You realize that Vergo left that scene leaving behind him a dozen of subordinates that he intended to kill in order to prevent them from testifying against him?
If Vergo was that much stronger why the fuck was he unable to put him down?
You're acting like there was this huge gap between the two characters when it doesn't make any sense on a story telling perspective.
Mid diff, get the fuck out of here. I think you're confusing Sanji for Tashigi, she was the one who got bitch slapped.

:bookerskully.

My hat off to you, i thought that you outdid yourself with the amount of praise you constantly give to the Raid Suit, as if nearly all the characters weren't juiced , enhanced with countless weapons.
AKA wanking King a fucking Ancient Zoan while denigrating Sanji for using a suit.
You're amazing , keep it up.

:Mshad

On topic.
At that time Vergo high diff in my opinion, with plot on his side like currently on Onigashima of course Vergo would have lost.
 
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Beast

Probably higher than a kite
Convicts hating days have reach an all time high lol.

Tryna make a name for himself in the name of ZoLo. :lbj
 

Vivo Diez

Well-Known Member
I saw punk hazard as:

Law>Vergo>Sanji>=Smoker

But the gap between them not being all that huge. As evidenced by Law having to use an underhanded way to quickly win his fight with Smoker and Vergo displaying superiority to Law in everything but reaction speed and not being able to tank his slashes.

@charles101 brought up a good point of Sanji not starting fresh in his fight, which does mean that his leg cracking could be partially because of that, but also clearly Sanji was worried about Vergo's durability, so it can't be all just excused due to injury.

I still think Vergo would win more times than not. with Sanji having a slim chance of extreme diffing him. By WCI Sanji solidly surpassed Vergo tho.
 
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Mercurial

Konoha's most skilled shinobi
^if you think Vergo wins high diff we are actually of similar mindset
Funny thing that shows how butthurt are the biased haters.

If a DF fighter or a hand to hand fighter who also can use swords as a mere supplementary style was to overwhelm Zoro in a sword duel and even ruin one of his swords, and do that while also massively holding back, every single person would say that Zoro is portrayed as clearly weaker than said fighter. If Zoro in his mind reflects and with a concerned expression admits to himself that he was going to lose, literally no person in the world at that point would suggest that he could win.

And yet now we have some people with"S-Sanji could win if he tried hard-d!"

:dumbpepe

"Everything that happened was only because weakened!"

:dumbpepe

By a move than even Usopp tanked. Interesting that a move than Usopp could tank could still weaken Sanji so much.

Interesting that Sanji in his own mind does not refere to him being weakened as the reason for losing to Vergo.
Interesting that he did not think that as an excuse for himself, while some biased people use that as an excuse for his poor performance that for misterious reasons could somewhat skyrocket to be much better going from doing shit to holding back Vergo and being damaged from holding back Vergo to defeat a serious Vergo.

Canon Sanji = Lose to holding back Vergo < Being on par with holding back Vergo < Defeat holding back Vergo < Being on par with serious Vergo < Defeat serious Vergo = Fanfic Sanji

The portrayal is clear. Sanji himself admitted! Without any excuse, in a honest reflection in his own mind!



Not to mention the progression in Vergo's commitment is blatant. One needs complete bias to not notice.

Vergo vs Sanji = Vergo holds back massively. No CoA, no Full Body CoA, no bamboo.

Vergo vs Smoker = Vergo starts to fight seriously. He starts to use CoA and bamboo.

Vergo vs Law = Vergo gives everything he has. Uses Full Body CoA as well.

Sanji < Smoker < Law.
 

Beast

Probably higher than a kite
It’s funny when people gotta list haki twice to try make it seem even more unbelievable.

Vergo didn’t even use haki nor haki :mjlol
 

Vivo Diez

Well-Known Member
Funny thing that shows how butthurt are the biased haters.

If a DF fighter or a hand to hand fighter who also can use swords as a mere supplementary style was to overwhelm Zoro in a sword duel and even ruin one of his swords, and do that while also massively holding back, every single person would say that Zoro is portrayed as clearly weaker than said fighter. If Zoro in his mind reflects and with a concerned expression admits to himself that he was going to lose, literally no person in the world at that point would suggest that he could win.

And yet now we have some people with"S-Sanji could win if he tried hard-d!"

:dumbpepe

"Everything that happened was only because weakened!"

:dumbpepe

By a move than even Usopp tanked. Interesting that a move than Usopp could tank could still weaken Sanji so much.

Interesting that Sanji in his own mind does not refere to him being weakened as the reason for losing to Vergo.
Interesting that he did not think that as an excuse for himself, while some biased people use that as an excuse for his poor performance that for misterious reasons could somewhat skyrocket to be much better going from doing shit to holding back Vergo and being damaged from holding back Vergo to defeat a serious Vergo.

Canon Sanji = Lose to holding back Vergo < Being on par with holding back Vergo < Defeat holding back Vergo < Being on par with serious Vergo < Defeat serious Vergo = Fanfic Sanji

The portrayal is clear. Sanji himself admitted! Without any excuse, in a honest reflection in his own mind!



Not to mention the progression in Vergo's commitment is blatant. One needs complete bias to not notice.

Vergo vs Sanji = Vergo holds back massively. No CoA, no Full Body CoA, no bamboo.

Vergo vs Smoker = Vergo starts to fight seriously. He starts to use CoA and bamboo.

Vergo vs Law = Vergo gives everything he has. Uses Full Body CoA as well.

Sanji < Smoker < Law.
Nah, Smoker and Sanji dealt an almost identical amount of damage to Vergo/got the same reaction from Vergo with a direct attack:



Just because he used his bamboo against Smoker doesn't indicate that he considered Smoker a stronger opponent. Smoker attacked him with his jitte, so obviously using a weapon you're proficient with is beneficial to use against another weapon with reach.
 

Mercurial

Konoha's most skilled shinobi
Nah, Smoker and Sanji dealt an almost identical amount of damage to Vergo/got the same reaction from Vergo with a direct attack:

Smoker doesn't even use kicks as his main fighting style and still easily parried, without any damage, a CoA kick from Vergo.
While Sanji, who only fights with kicks, had his leg damaged by parrying a non CoA kick from Vergo.



It is really one of the clearest comparisons ever. In his supplementary style Smoker has much better feats than Sanji has in his main style. Smoker is much stronger than Sanji.

Just because he used his bamboo against Smoker doesn't indicate that he considered Smoker a stronger opponent. Smoker attacked him with his jitte, so obviously using a weapon you're proficient with is beneficial to use against another weapon with reach.
So I guess if one holds back more with A then with B, it does count nothing because you said so. Ok.
 

YonkoDrippy

Banned
Smoker doesn't even use kicks as his main fighting style and still easily parried, without any damage, a CoA kick from Vergo.
While Sanji, who only fights with kicks, had his leg damaged by parrying a non CoA kick from Vergo.



It is really one of the clearest comparisons ever. In his supplementary style Smoker has much better feats than Sanji has in his main style. Smoker is much stronger than Sanji.


So I guess if one holds back more with A then with B, it does count nothing because you said so. Ok.
Any of the M3 would beat smoker. Vergo mid diffed him. He didn’t even use full body armament when he trashed smoker. Sanji still had Some DJ attacks and Hell memories up his sleeve if things got rough. He can beat smoker comfortably and he would’ve extreme diffed Vergo
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
As evidenced by Law having to use an underhanded way to quickly win his fight with Smoker
That's just Law's way of fighting. It's not underhanded. His fighting style is using his fruit to surprise and lower his opponents' guard and then use his fruit's hax to finish them off.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
Any of the M3 would beat smoker. Vergo mid diffed him. He didn’t even use full body armament when he trashed smoker. Sanji still had Some DJ attacks and Hell memories up his sleeve if things got rough. He can beat smoker comfortably and he would’ve extreme diffed Vergo
While I agree that any M3 would beat smoker, you're forgetting Smoker flat out letting himself get hit to get Law's heart back. And also assuming full body armament makes a difference, Vergo used hardening anyways, if anything, condensing his haki in his arm makes it stronger than full body.
 

YonkoDrippy

Banned
And also assuming full body armament makes a difference, Vergo used hardening anyways, if anything, condensing his haki in his arm makes it stronger than full body.
it does. When Vergo went he tapped the ground with his bamboo and it made a huge dent. Which implied he was stronger than before. Even Pica goes full body against Zoro which implies it’s his strongest form. Vergo also thought it would prevent him from getting cut by law. Pretty clear going full body makes you stronger. It’s similar to gear 4th when your putting out all of your Haki at once.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
it does. When Vergo went he tapped the ground with his bamboo and it made a huge dent. Which implied he was stronger than before. Even Pica goes full body against Zoro which implies it’s his strongest form. Vergo also thought it would prevent him from getting cut by law. Pretty clear going full body makes you stronger. It’s similar to gear 4th when your putting out all of your Haki at once.
I've always seen that as a way to protect himself more. God knows what attack Law is going for, Vergo doesn't have FS and he knows 1 hit can make him lose so he protects his whole body to make sure nothing Law is gonna do can hit him. Pica saw the sheer size of Zoro's attacks and figures one of his attacks can cover his whole body so he has to protect the whole body and not just his swords.

Gear 4th doesn't use full body haki, he's putting out all of his haki at once, yes, but completely condensed on his arms and upper body, which makes it stronger than if he was spreading it through his whole body. (And we know he uses CoA on those parts on purpose because when he fought Cracker with Tankman he used CoA on his belly)
 

Vivo Diez

Well-Known Member
That's just Law's way of fighting. It's not underhanded. His fighting style is using his fruit to surprise and lower his opponents' guard and then use his fruit's hax to finish them off.
If Smoker wasn't a worthy opponent he wouldn't have had to lower his opponent's guard to land a decisive strike, he would have just overwhelmed them with his powers as he did against the Yeti bros.
 

Vivo Diez

Well-Known Member
Smoker doesn't even use kicks as his main fighting style and still easily parried, without any damage, a CoA kick from Vergo.
While Sanji, who only fights with kicks, had his leg damaged by parrying a non CoA kick from Vergo.
Did I make the argument that Sanji was more durable than Smoker? No. Does Smoker being more durable than Sanji mean that he could win against Sanji? No. Do you have evidence that Sanji couldn't parry Vergo's CoA kick? No. Have we seen Sanji with CoA clash against Vergo with CoA? No.
 

Strobacaxi

Well-Known Member
If Smoker wasn't a worthy opponent he wouldn't have had to lower his opponent's guard to land a decisive strike, he would have just overwhelmed them with his powers as he did against the Yeti bros.
Yeah I agree with that. Just wanted to correct the underhanded part :p
 

Mercurial

Konoha's most skilled shinobi
Any of the M3 would beat smoker.
Your headcanon. Rufy and Zoro would but that does not mean Sanji can. The former two who trained with Rayleigh and Mihawk started the Post TS much stronger than the latter who trained with Emporio Ivankov (maybe did not even train with him, actually).
Smoker was portrayed as stronger than Sanji, as Vergo against Sanji did hold back basically his entire skillset, while against Smoker he used everything bar Full Body CoA. Usually, in shonen manga, the villain holds back his moves against a weaker opponent and shows his resources against a stronger opponent. It's like 99% times like that.
CoA is one of the most important things in fights nowadays, and it's one of Vergo's best assets if not his best one, and Vergo chose to not use it against Sanji, while he used it against Smoker and Law. Guess why.

Vergo mid diffed him.
Vergo got a lot of his hits dodged or parried with ease by Smoker, and received many hits by the latter. That was when Vergo was using CoA and bamboo, that he felt he did not need to use against Sanji. Guess why.

Not to mention that Smoker was doing very good until, as Vergo himself stated, he completely changed his fighting style in a less advantegeous one, and that was the moment he was defeated.

He didn’t even use full body armament when he trashed smoker.
He didn't even use CoA at all when he overwhelmed Sanji at Sanji's own game!

Sanji still had Some DJ attacks and Hell memories up his sleeve if things got rough.
So slightly stronger Diable Jambe kicks are moving Sanji from not damaging non CoA powered Vergo at all (Sanji looks Vergo tanking his Flanchet Strike and comments "Is he made of metal or what?") to defeating CoA powered Vergo?
Are there any reasonable feats to justify that enormous jump?

he would’ve extreme diffed Vergo
Strangely enough, Sanji himself thinks otherwise. But let me guess, you know better than him, right?




Does Smoker being more durable than Sanji mean that he could win against Sanji? No.
It raises massively his chances. When Sanji gets damaged by a weaker attack and Smoker no sells a stronger attack, especially as we are talking about simple physical fighting (no strange haxxed moves) common sense and Occam's Razor tell us that most likely Smoker is stronger then Sanji.

CoA kick >> non CoA kick
Sanji = parries a non CoA kick and gets his leg heavily damaged
Smoker = parries a CoA kick with the utmost ease and not even the slightest damage
-> Smoker is stronger than Sanji

You just need a working brain and no bias.

Do you have evidence that Sanji couldn't parry Vergo's CoA kick? No.
Yes. Sanji got his leg damaged by Vergo's much weaker non CoA kick, then it's basic logic that at least he is in big trouble against Vergo's much stronger CoA powered kick. And he is in even bigger, enormous trouble if Vergo uses the even stronger Onitake.

Have we seen Sanji with CoA clash against Vergo with CoA? No.
This is comical.
Vergo is praised for his CoA by Doflamingo and has CoA feats against Smoker and Law. Law needed the most powerful Ope Ope cut that he has ever used, to overcome Vergo's CoA.
Sanji has zero hype/portrayal at all regarding his CoA; it's just stated that he can use it, like, even Tashigi and Boo can use it. And he has zero feats except for parrying Judge's non CoA enhanced spear. Out of that, zero feats. For example, zero attacking feats.
Sanji was impressed by Vergo's toughness even when the latter was not using CoA.

And yet you seem to suggest that we should be supposed to reasonably think that zero hype and feats Sanji's CoA should someway be better than Vergo's CoA that received hype and showed good feats.

:dumbpepe
The only two people to use full body Bh were 1shotted.
That was because Law is hella strong and Zoro is hella strong. Not because Vergo or Pica are weak. And as strong or weak you think that Vergo and Pica are, that does not change that Full Body CoA was clearly their most powerful asset as their last resource, which in shonen manga is usually your strongest available move.
 
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