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Senjutsu double standard in the BD?

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Hi no Ishi, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    According to a few posters (not calling people out) Biju Sage Mode Naruto is the odd man out.

    Senjutsu Chakra gives CS Users, Toads, Jiraiya, Kabuto, Hashirama, and even other forms such as RSM Naruto a huge boost but somehow BSM Naruto is often said to receive only a "minor", "insignificant" or "negligible" boost even though he has a larger supply of senjutsu chakra than any of his previous forms by far.

    We know BM Naruto and Kurama have their chakra synced to one connected pool. And that Kurama even helps gather sage chakra later on.


    We know nature becomes an added 30% to your chakra pool and enhances it over all from Fukusaku


    We know Naruto's base, cloak, and Avatar show sage markings.
    And with that boost Naruto and Minato were able to wreck the same arms that wrecked the 4 Red Yang Barrier and Senpo: Stacked Gate of the Great God.

    (Could you see even OG Kurama doing that ?)


    We know how Tobirama felt about seeing a Senjutsu TBB


    And that Naruto went from getting blitzed in BM along side B by the ten tails


    To cutting off the more powerful Jubito with attacks.

    And being able to smash Rinne SM Madara into the ground after that fight
    Spoiler:


    (That one susanoo, btw, is the only one I've ever seen people say did not get a big boost from being made of both Rinne and Senjutsu chakra somehow, but go figure)


    So taking that into account:
    1. how could sage mode be only a small boost?


    2. Where do you rank BSM Naruto compared to Kurama?

    3. Wouldn't Naruto and Sasuke have to both be at near Hashirama's level while on senjutsu just to fight someone who is that much stronger than Hashirama?

    4. Why would a sage mode boost be small given its portrayal ?

    Thanks for your time, I know that was alot


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    Phew!
     
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  2. Shark Ikimasu yo

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    Well that Kuchiyose was definitely Senjutsu-enhanced. :hurr
     
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  3. BlackHeartedImp Well-Known Member

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    1. It's not
    2. I think Naruto would win. I usually view perfect jins as stronger than just the beast they hold.
    3. Idk anyone who asserts that they're not. Hashi still wins but it's a difficult fight.
    4. It's probably viewed that way because it wasn't the newest power up.
     
  4. Isaiah13000 The Snake that slithered over the Moon

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    The main reason some people believe the boost is minor is because they think that the power is separate from Kurama's power and it's strength is based on Naruto himself. This is false, the power is based on both Naruto and Kurama's synced power so the boost would be significant. We know this because Kurama Mode is Naruto and Kurama using their chakra together as one, so it makes no sense for it to scale based only on Naruto. The fact that his Kurama avatar is visibly affected and obtains Sage markings should make it even more clear that it is essentially Kurama in Sage Mode: Which would be a force to be reckoned with. The fact that he's capable of keeping up with Juubito in that form as well should make it even more obvious.
     
  5. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    No.
     
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  6. DaVizWiz ” ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽=ε/̵͇̿̿/’̿’̿ ̿ ̿̿[} ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿

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    1. how could sage mode be only a small boost?

    • It's not a small boost

    2. Where do you rank BSM Naruto compared to Kurama?

    • BSM Naruto is literally right below Kurama on my tier list

    3. Wouldn't Naruto and Sasuke have to both be at near Hashirama's level while on senjutsu just to fight someone who is that much stronger than Hashirama?

    • No, Minato's FTG, Obito having no will to win that fight, being inexplicably restricted from using Rinnegan Paths, Kamui & Rikudo MS Genjutsu would allow BSM Naruto to compete with him

    4. Why would a sage mode boost be small given its portrayal ?

    • It wouldn't. SM Naruto sensed an attack from the Juubi that BM Naruto couldn't even react to. The reflex boost alone would be dramatically increased.
     
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  7. HokageSage2000 Member

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    Base Naruto went from having High Jonin level combat and reaction speed to having 3 Raikage level combat and reaction speed. Hell, Even incomplete SM Jiraiya got a massive speed and strength increases from SM. BSM Naruto dozens of times stronger and faster than BM at least
     
  8. Gifted 神はここで終わります

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    Notifications are not working very well lol.

    The SM boost is small compared to the boost BM gives so it'd be understandable that the boost BSM gives dosen't seem very noticable.

    BSM Naruto>Kuruma for sure SM Naruto clobbered 50% Kuruma for a bit now add on BM and it's a wrap lol
     
  9. Silnaem Nothing for Wisdom

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    I think the fundamental point here is that (whether) adding SM provides an overall boost to the collective power of both the beast and the boy, instead of simply the boy bar the beast (or not).

    Now my knowledge regarding the latter chapters, especially regarding Naruto versions, is terribly lacking. However, the given explanation in OP is logical and matches what little understanding i already have.

    So I'll side with you in terms of the boost.

    Side note:
    I usually don't get notified when a multi-tag is done including me.
    In fact, i literally stumbled upon this thread and only noticed i was tagged ahen i scrolled to the bottom of OP
     
  10. WorldsStrongest Man of Miracles

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    Its not necessarily that SM is a small boost

    Its that SM is a small boost comparatively to what BM is...Which should shock nobody.

    This next pseudo rant is kinda headcanon-ish...So keep that in mind as you read it. Also keep in mind despite teh fact its headcanon and i freely admit it is, theres also nothing in teh series to really counter said headcanon as trasformations and amps are VERY poorly explained in Naruto.

    I also dont believe any amp in Naruto is multiplicative. The portrayed gaps are WAY too small for exponential improvements. Take the CS for instance, allegedly a 10x boost according to Jirobo and he doesnt even have one of the top 2 CSs...Thats an insane jump. But, rather than just apply a flat x10 boost to every CS user who uses it, id rather look at it as "10x Jirobos level of base chakra" of a boost, which is comparatively much smaller, and makes sense given CSs later showings.

    Same with SM, dont think its multiplicative, but additive. So lets look back when Naruto jumped from a Jonin level fighter to a Kage tier one...Call Base Naruto 100 as of the Pain arc, and we will say that Perfect SM adds 300 to your base power, making SM Naruto 400 overall, so COMPARATIVELY, relative to Narutos lower level, SM looks like a x4 amplification.

    BUT, later on in the WA, when Narutos base improved tremendously AND he had the ability to stack additional forms alongside SM, the boost appears diluted. Lets call WA Narutos Base 250, then say KCM adds 500 to your base power, and BM adds 1000. SM was 300 remember? So we have this now

    Pain Arc Base Naruto = 100
    Pain Arc SM Naruto = 400


    WA Base Naruto =250
    WA SM Naruto = 550
    KCM Naruto = 750
    KCM/SM Naruto = 1050
    BM Naruto= 1250
    BSM Naruto= 1550

    Comparatively, SM was a x4 amp for Pain arc Naruto, whereas for BSM Naruto, its diluted to less than a 25% increase.

    So i can easily see why people would argue that BSM gets a smaller amp from SM, because when stacked up against the jarring increase in power his base receives, it certainly looks like he does.

    About the same if youre talking 100% Kurama.

    Kurama has more firepower and stamina, id give the edge to BSM Naruto in basically every other category tho.
    They are both near Hashiramas level...This is unanimous...I havent seen ANYONE who puts Peak EMS Sasuke or BM Naruto outside of Hashiramas tier in overall placement.
    Cuz its additive and not exponential imo.

    So as the users base increases in power overall, and as they stack additional amps on top of SM, SM doesnt look as impressive.
     
  11. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Naruto did not have BSM there.

    1. I never believed it was, tbh, I'm surprised posters were saying it provided a small boost. IMO this is a case where when posters don't like an ability being broken they place fanon limits on it. Examples include Preta having a limit, and that ST can be detected and so on.

    2. Obviously stronger. That's like asking where do we rank a BSM Bijuudama compared to a Kurama Bijuudama.

    3. Hard to say since when Obito got real he took them down. Then there was Obito's feelings getting in the way and the K11 helping them out. Then the obvious, Obito never used the Six Paths Rinnegan powers.

    4. I don't honestly know, man. :-(
     
  12. Android 3:16

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    Whoever is saying that, they have zero reading comprehension.

    They believe BSM is simply BM + SM, but in reality both modes multiply each other's power.

    The Last movie Databook states that the power of SM significantly increases the power and sensory abilities of Kurama chakra mode when used in combination with it.

    But oh well, average posters are gonna average.
     
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  13. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    It depends on how Kishi showed them during that small window. BSM Naruto did not have a long time to show more feats, so his power is often ignored, little to no change. And people most often than not only believe in what they see (sometimes even that not good enough for them :lmao)

    Either way, it's not only Naruto tbh. Many characters suffer from the same thing. :catshrug

    As for me, I consider him stronger than Hashirama, so there is that. Although people would say I am bias, so what gives... :catshrug
     
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  14. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    If referring to mainly about strength, then fighting the only enemy in Ten Tails' jinchuuriki would make combining BM + SM appear as a small boost. Generally however it's what sets Naruto above the Edo version of Minato and pushes Founders to high difficulty.


    He's superior to Kurama but the gap isn't defined by a wide margin imo.


    You already showed Tobirama believing Naruto might become a better Hokage than his brother, which supports no present tense interpretation.
     
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  15. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    Naruto can't be a better Hokage (in that chapter) than Hashirama, when he was not a Hokage yet. :zaru
     
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  16. Wrecked Baloney Mob Stan

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    I always thought BSM Naruto is mucho hella better than BM Naruto.

    Probably because it's overkill for all but a few opponents.
     
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  17. Batzzaro29 Well-Known Member

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    I basically made a thread regarding this issue few months ago.

    When Hashirama goes SM he receives a huge boost capable of fighting Madara/Kurama at SAME time.

    But when BM goes SM... Nah its just SM stacked on BM.

    No BM will get same multiplier which Base Naruto got during Pein arc.

    Just as Hashirama.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  18. Batzzaro29 Well-Known Member

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    If SM is a small boost.

    Then Base Hashirama = SM Hashirama.

    SM boost depends on how much chakra you possess and its potency.

    People with larger chakra reserves needs large amount of nature chakra to enter sage mode.

    If BM Naruto has x400 more chakra then pein arc base Naruto then he will need more then x400 times Nature chakra then Pein arc base Naruto to enter sage mode due to both amount and strength of BM chakra.



    So if
    Pein arc Base Naruto = 100.
    Pein arc SM Naruto = 400(x4 increase).
    WA Base Naruto = 250.
    KCM = 750.
    BM = 1250.

    Then
    WA SM Naruto = 1000.
    KCM/SM = 3000.
    BSM = 5000.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  19. Mar55 Well-Known Member

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    BSM is obviously much stronger than BM, comparable to SM Hashi and Vote Spots Imo, but showings don't always dictate what people believe.

    Then again I tend to include BM Minato, as his hax is undeniable to them, he should also be close to the fastest among the tier.
     
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  20. kayz Well-Known Member

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    For BSM, I believe SM actually makes the power of BM exponentially greater rather than being just additive.
     
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  21. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys and gals for the mostly well reasoned and intelligent answers!
     
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  22. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Yes but he implies a strength comparison, otherwise he'd throw in himself and/or Minato in precluding Naruto becoming a better "Hokage" than them. :zaru Remember this is right after Tobirama witnessed Naruto adding senjutsu to Biju bomb.
     
  23. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    What does throwing himself would even change?

    I can't say you are the best wrestler in WWE for example, if you are not a wrestler in WWE, yet. :zaru
    Same shit here.

    Even if we were to go with your logic, Tobirama wouldn't think that if Naruto was far away from Hashi's level
    as his delusional fanboys might think. :catshrug
     
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  24. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    BSM Naruto wasn't far away from Hashirama's level I agree, but he wasn't as strong nor did he have the title. Given Tobirama's demeanor, his intent being "You may become a better Hokage than my brother. All you need now is the actual title!" is something that sounds incredibly unlikely.

    After Naruto met Hagoromo however that seemed to be the demeanor.
     
  25. Perfect Susano Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't work like that. Senjutsu allows someone to use powered up versions of their ninjutsu.

    An example of this is Jiraiya being able to use a Giant Rasengan in Sage mode but being unable to in base. That is his ninjutsu being powered up by definition. But a normal sized SM Rasengan is literally no different powerwise than a normal sized base Rasengan. The same jutsu are being used at the exact same level, but Jiraiya in Sage mode would need less chakra to use the normal sized Rasengan due to his chakra being more poweful.

    BSM Naruto's standard Bijudama is literally no different power wise than any other standard Bijudama from any Biju. SM Hashirama's Mokujin is literally no different strength wise than the Mokujin he uses in Base.

    Madara's humanoid Susano'o that he used against the Biju was literally no different strength wise than the one he used while he was an Edo Tensei or alive back in the founders era. Same jutsu in all cases being used at the exact same level.
     
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  26. kayz Well-Known Member

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    So you are basically saying, if an SM rasengan and a normal rasengan were to clash, they will cancel each other out??? Nahh, man
    SM was basically said to increase the potency of ninjutsu and not just size. So if an SM rasengan and a normal rasengan were to clash, the SM rasengan would overcome it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  27. King1 He who strikes first wins

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    Huh.....wrong mate. BM not BSM, BM Naruto BB was able to overpower all the bijudama of 7 tail beasts now imagine adding SM on it. BSM Naruto bijudama is vastly superior to other tail beasts bijudama combined
    Wrong again, it's vastly superior. SM amps all your ninjustu, taijutsu so by default his base justu would be inferior to SM Amp jutsu as he can't use SS without SM
    Wrong again, alive madara's susano was amped by hashi's sm. The fact that alive madara was superior physically to edo madara was made known by hashirama. So by default alive madara's susano is superior to edo madara's susano
     
  28. sabre320 Well-Known Member

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    How does that make sense...a sm boost is easily over 10x looking at any shinobi..you give bm naruto who is just literally half of kuramas chakra only much stronger due to being a jin and his jutsu..then give him sm amp which is easily above 2x which full kurama has over yang kurama..
     
  29. sabre320 Well-Known Member

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    We literally got confirmation from pa that sm is a boost that is increases all assets of an entity exponentially...we literally saw hashirama who has lower reserves and stats then bm naruto recieve a massive boost by sm why in gods name would naruto not recieve the same boost as hashirama.......or do you believe hashirama did not recieve a serious boost from sm?
     
  30. MaruUchiha The Fourth Six Paths

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    Sage Mode is nothing compared to Mangekyo Sharingan :sgan
     
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