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Shinn vs Kira Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Gundam' started by Kiba-kun, May 30, 2005.

  1. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    As the link someone posted was more to do with mobile suit combat (and was very dead) I decided to make this ^_^;; Let us debate Shinn vs Kira here - not who would win in a fight per se, because this will be answered more than once in the series most likely, but their strengths and weaknesses personality-wise. Feel free to yell and swear about the topic: just make entirely sure that you do not flame members of the forum, characters only, and that you don't take insults to characters as insults to yourself. Also, don't dislike people just because they disagree with you :p

    Continuing from what I was saying on the main thread:
    I don't dispute that Archangel was protecting civilians, took down Sting and Neo, etc. However:
    My point is that this could have been avoided entirely if he wasn't there at all. She was very frightened of Freedom; this fear provoked her most destructive attack. If Kira wasn't there, Shinn and Neo (once he decided to go against his orders, which I think was brewing in him - speculation only, we'll have to see how his personality develops over the next few eps) could have subdued Stellar and taken her away. So my point is that while Archangel's intentions were good, they (for the third time) caused more harm than good by being there.
     
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  2. ElelloN Professional lurker

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    If Stellar had not died by the hands of Kira there, and joined with Shinn and possibly Neo in exile she would just die shortly thereafter. Remeber when she was at Minerva? The only ones that could keep her alive where the EA, and if the EA couldn't use her, I dont think they would keep her alive.

    So what Im trying to say here is that she were going to die anyway...
     
  3. ssouske Callsign: Urz 7

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    If really think about it... stellar would not have been inside Destroy had shinn not returned her to neo\mwu... well Im not saying that neo\mwu really wanted to break his promise... he is just getting too much pressure from that pussy Djibril... eniweiz... im not also bashing shinn for returning stelar... it is noble of him to do so... and since almost everyone in minerva does not give a shit about stellar dying, its semi-right for shinn to do that... BUT LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE INNOCENT CIVILIANS, NOT TO MENTION TO SHINN WHEN STELLAR DIED... So in my opinion, shinn did this to himself... it was just accidental that stellar saw freedom... Kira already stood down after shinn prevented him from attacking...
     
  4. Inquisitor Providence

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    You don't really know what would've happened had Kira and the AA not been there. Alright, let's examine what the situation would've been had the AA and Kira decided to sit out this fight. Shinn would've been fighting Destroy, Neo, and Sting on his own (he has enough talent to take out Neo and Sting pretty easily if they team up on him). Now assuming that he didn't defeat Neo and Sting (and caused them to crash) Stellar would have little reason to go crazy after Shinn calmed her down. [It is possible though that Neo would've continued to urge her forward since he has orders to fulfill] Then what? Would Shinn take her back? We've seen what happened last time he took her (she nearly died). Would he give her back to the EA to fight another day? What would Shinn do. So at the most Stellar would have lived to fight another day, and don't think she wouldn't fight again; she is one of the EA's extended. She is doomed to a horrible life. So no matter what Shinn does Stellar is not going to live a normal life; she can't. Either she will die fighting or die on a hospital bed. The best course of action considering this circumstance is the one that saves the most lives.

    Which brings me to my next point, which is that the AA and Kira saved lives by intervening (as an example, how Cagali saved some civilians). Also, if Kira had not shown up, Destroy would've gone along its merry way of destroying pretty much everything until Shinn showed up. Stellar's life is not worth anymore than anyone else's. She was a threat to countless people.
     
  5. ssouske Callsign: Urz 7

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    If kira and gang was not there, more than three quarters of eurasia, or even the whole Eurasia, could have been destroyed and there would be a lot of possible future shinns... (EEEEEK! just the thought of more angsty, arogant, and bitchy brats roaming in earth makes me shiver... :p )
     
  6. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    Hmm. I do agree with you, Inquistor - but we need to know just how much damage that last outburst from Destroy actually did. That was MUCH bigger than all the previous attacks: so the question is, did that attack cause more deaths than were prevented by the Archangel's actions? Because I don't think we can dispute that the particular attack was caused by Kira's presence. So really, the debate boils down to comparing non-existant numbers now XD Am I wrong?
     
  7. bksianzz Member

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    kiba vs kira? haha
    back to topic... the person who is at fault is neo.... he shouldnt have let stellar drive tat "thing" in the first place... second what kira did was right, third its good tat stellar died.. coz now we can see shinn vs kira... which is exciting

    shinn should own kira if shinn were to use the same gundam as kira... no doubt shinn has better ability than kira coz he has the hatred in his heart which drives him further
     
  8. Inquisitor Providence

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    To an extent it does come down to comparing non-existent numbers (as you put it), but please bear in mind that Shinn was not there for the entire time. Kira was fighting Destroy for a little bit before Shinn arrived, and who knows what Destroy would have done had Freedom not shown up and attacked.

    Also, we don't know how Stellar would have reacted had Kira not been there; would Neo have urged her on? Would she have left the battlefield? We just don't know. Considering all of these uncertainties, which spring from the uncertainties of warfare, was it not right for Kira and the AA to at least attempt to do the right thing?
     
  9. Mindless Ergo Proxy

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    I'm with Inquisitor on this one. What would have happened if Kira and them wasn't there?

    There are numerous possibilities...

    Example #1:

    Shinn engaged in battle with Destroy (Stellar) and dealt the same 'fatal' blow to the cockpit area, and Neo told him to stop (like he did in the episode) because the pilot was Stellar. From here on, I think it would have gone like this: Shinn starts screaming at Neo for not keeping his promise, Shinn cuts Neo down and it either kills him or injures him badly. Stellar seeing (her beloved?) Neo crashing to the ground in a burning mobile suit and then exploding when hitting the ground, she would have gone crazy and killed everyone, no matter how much she 'loved' Shinn.

    Example #2:

    Shinn engages in battle with Destroy (Stellar) and gets some hits on it. But then, Chaos decides to get involved in the whole thing, and Sting beeing a quite 'precious' person to Stellar... well, things speak for themselves. Stellar would have gone berserk again. Only this time, Neo never had time to tell Shinn to stop because Shinn already cut his Windam down and killed him. So it's a 1 vs. 1 battle between Destroy and Impulse. Shinn, with his obviously superior piloting skills and his SEED-mode would obviously had won. And seeing how Shinn isn't the type of guy that 'spares' his enemies, we can say with almost 100% certainty that Shinn would have killed Stellar. And afterwards, he finds out it was Stellar piloting Destroy, and that he killed her.

    Who would he blame then? Himself? Hardly, since he's never wrong (he put it that bluntly in the past, so why not now?). Blame ZAFT? Maybe. Blame the EA? Hell yeah. Blame ORB? Why not, Cagalli is the sugarcoat-bitch after all. (And ORB formed a union with the EA. He might think that the union between them somehow 'allowed' the EA to build Destroy. I hope you understand what I'm getting at...)

    Or, he would simply sulk for the 18 remaining episodes about how he killed the only person that actually loved him since his family died.

    (It would have been for the better if this happened, if you compare it to Kira getting involved, but then again, how could Kira not get involved in this? It was a matter of human lives, and Kira, unlike Shinn is able to draw a line between human lives. Kira would rather kill one to save a thousand. Shinn on the other hand (as it seems) would rather kill a thousand to save one (Stellar).)

    To me, Kira getting involved in all this was for the better. Well, not just Kira, but the Archangel and everyone too. If they didn't come, it would have turned into a bigger mess.

    My two cents (for now).
     
  10. icy_tony bite my shiny metal ass

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    Not really, just because shinn has the hatred factor, kira has the experience and if u push kira far enough ex: freedom vs. providence, he would let go of the "no killing" thing and destroy shinn in no time at all.
     
  11. staradderdragoon is owning at being a

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    this also supports the fact that shinn canot go into berserker mode willingly. kira in berserker mode is practically unstoppable...
     
  12. Chillin The New Sword

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    I agree with Inquisitor and Mindless so I really won't say much other than Kira and AA were right in coming and finishing Destroy. Just because we know Stellar's name doesn't mean she was anymore important than even one of the possible tens of thousands of lives that she took and would have kept on killing if they were not there to fight and eventually take her down.
     
  13. Mindless Ergo Proxy

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    Oh come on. The thread starter isn't even defending himself? What kind of thread is this? :p

    Get the posting going for christs sake!
     
  14. Inquisitor Providence

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    Indeed. Where's the fiery passion of the Shinn fanboy brigade? I guess we might have to change subjects to the actual Shinn and Kira battle that will inevitably happen and the subsequent fights of their rivalry.

    Of course Shinn is doomed to ultimately fail in his quest to get revenge, because Kira is far too popular to be killed off, though we might have a situation where Shinn thinks he kills Kira, just like how Athrun though he killed Kira way back in SEED).
     
  15. Son_Pan Now Here Is Nowhere

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    I agree with Chillin, Inquisitor and Mindless as well!

    bravo. y'allz deserve a rep for sayin everything that should have been said. me like!

    i, too, am wondering what Kiba and that other dude is going to say. so they can post in the SEED Destiny thread but not this one to say something back?
     
  16. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    I'm coming, I'm coming! I'm not online 24/7 y'know. :p

    Righty-o.
    They didn't actually do a hell of a lot. Kira just kinda flitted around and annoyed Neo and Sting; he provoked a couple of shots from Destroy at him instead of the city, but nothing too major. The only notable thing was Cagalli defending those civilians, and that's not Kira, ne? :p
    So surely the action that saves the most lives is stopping Destroy ASAP? Kira's being there prolonged the assault and provoked more attacks. If he wasn't there, Destroy would have been stopped MUCH quicker; that I'm fairly sure of. After that, I'm just hoping that Neo can do something about her.
    Again, see above. Archangel didn't distract Destroy enough to make a difference, and I believe that the lives saved by Cagalli etc don't balance with the lives taken with the angry attacks Kira provoked from Destroy.
    Djibril, actually, IMO. Neo's lovely really...he's just following orders. *clutches onto Mwu pictures and cries*
    Comparing the numbers of lives saved by Archangel before Minerva showed up and the numbers of lives taken by attacks Freedom caused from Destroy is what I mean; these numbers don't exist, so we can't really take that any further.
    Mindless, while your examples make plenty of sense, I could draw plenty of similar ones that make equal amount of sense; I can't really argue against them, because they could easily happen, but by the same token I could pull some of my own that work similarly for my own point. But I'm not going to, because I'm tired and my friend is calling me lame for posting this. *runs away*
     
  17. Jikes why does no one listen to me?

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    START RANT: So far there is only Kiba-Kun and myself, that is hardly a brigade, are you trying to put us on the same level of the sasuke fanboys of yore? if you look at the numbers we are highly outnumbered to the "ultimate coordinator" fanboys and fangirls so obviously flooding this area of the forum, go on look at the Shinn Asuka fanclub which is on like page 8 of its respective section, there are like 5 members!: END RANT

    I like this idea, this could create a really good conflict between Shinn and Athrun after they think shinn kills kira and perhaps Athrun could finally find his place in this story.

    (this i not directed at Inquistor) I know Kira is the ultimate coordinator and all but if you look at the facts the only seriously strong person he has defeated was Raww, how many extended did he defeat in SEED, i believe the number is "0", I admit Kira is a really good pilot but to say he is will own Shinn is abosolutely stupid, just remember that shin has done more in Desitiny than Kira had done at the same point in SEED, thats why the battle between them is going to be so cool.

    personally after actually watching episode 32 I would have to disagree with Kiba that Kira had almost no choice in finishing off Destroy, however i am not supporting the fact that Kira killed Stellar, i think it would have been much more in Kira's nature to have done a similar thing to Destroy as he did to Savior.

    to many people here a Kira biased, its as if he is Jesus or something, only myself and Kiba are the ones saying anything against him, to fully debate you must understand the arguements against your side.

    Here are the bad points I understand about Shin:

    1. He is an angsty brat - seriously though at his age I bet you where too except for one difference, he saw his sisters mutilated body, now that is going to screw up anyone in the head, i'm surprised he isn't even more of an angsty brat than he is.

    2. well everything he does wrong basically stems from arguement 1. Shinn obvious lack of respect for others is simply caused by the fact that he thinks no-body understand him and he is the only one going through it tough, yes he is arrogant but most teenagers are, He also kills and shoots at people with no regard for human life, well if no one had the common respect not to fire at your family i'm sure you would be like that aswell and also BECAUSE ITS HIS JOB TO KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER duh!

    However AA are not a military force, they are militia, therefore what they are doing is wrong, firing at bothsides of a war is like putting up a flag and saying KILL ME NOW, Kira has no right, i repeat "NO RIGHT" to enter a skermish with ORB or Minerva (EA is fine because I hate them), Cagalli, Lacus, and Kira are all idealistic children who dont know what hell they are doing, stopping a war is one thing, potentially endangering soldiers and friends lives by interveaning is another.

    eg. I am totally against the war in IRAQ, but you dont see me going to IRAQ and running into the middle of a battle field holding firearms saying "STOP STOP please dont fight its not the humane thing to do"
     
  18. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    Exactly, you don't see the remainder of the EU (excluding the UK) running to Iraq and trying to stop the war, do you? And don't say they don't have the power to carry that out if they tried, because they do. While Archangel's heart is in the right place, so far they have had no success in following through their ideals, and have not learnt from their mistakes.

    And I totally agree with Jikes about Shinn's flaws, I was about to post something similar myself :p Why don't we have a similar list of Kira's flaws from one of you guys?
     
  19. ElelloN Professional lurker

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    I think it was about this time Kira was starting to really kick Zafts (Athrun, Dearka, Yzak and Nicol) ass. He was starting force them to flee instead of defending AA while it was fleeing.

    Well, you can argue that he tried. Destroy was not going down without a fight, and disabling the main guns was his priority. A side effect was that Destroy exploded, thus killing Stellar.

    Well, since he is the ultimate human being, he is as close as we get ;)

    Cant really say anything here...

    Ok, picture this. You are enlisted in the military, they order you to kill civilians. Are you going to do it? You are a soldier are you not?

    Since when did anyone have a right to kill another human being? Kira and Co are doing their best to make sure as few as possible are being killed, and nin this case they have to try to stop both sides. Would you prefer if they for example exterminated Minerva? That would make sure as few as possible die. Everyone at Minerva but none at Orb/EA. If they had done that at the first encounter, the entire Orb fleet would have survived. There were more people at the Orb fleet than at the Minerva, so with this logic less people would die.

    If I had the power to stop both sides, and in the mean time be able to stay alive and protect my helpers, Im sure I would.
     
  20. Mindless Ergo Proxy

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    Hmm. Don't know what I should say. Hm... maybe something like: "Wow, even the fanboy's have the same personality as Shinn...?". :p

    No, seriously though. I'm not a Kira fanboy. (see avatar/signature, if you're a fanboy/girl, you tend to have the person you're a fan of in your avatar/sig)

    I'm simply stating my point. Kira was not wrong in engaging in battle with Destroy. Why? Well, as I said before: Kira, unlike Shinn, can draw a line between human lives. Kira would rather kill one (Stellar in this case) to save a thousand (the people of Berlin in this case) and on the other hand we have Shinn, who it seems would rather kill a thousand (the people of Berlin) to save one person (Stellar).

    Sure, I can understand Shinn getting mad at Kira for attacking Stellar and all, but Shinn can't see the whole picture. He's too selfish, and too self-centered. He wouldn't give a shit if the whole city was destroyed, as long as Stellar was safe. I got that feeling as soon as he found out about Stellar beeing the pilot. Now, let's not dwell more around that specific topic. The past (episode 32) is the past.

    I'll name some of Kira's flaws then I guess. Shinn is obviously has alot more flaws when it comes to both interacting with other people, and as a person beeing out on the battlefield.

    Kira's Flaws:

    #1: Kira tends to get obsessed with his whole pacifism-thingy. Like when he doubted the ORB soldiers who (obviously...) came to the Archangel because they believed the people on the Archangel were right. Kira wasn't able to see the whole picture, and narrowed everything about the ORB soldiers down to one thing: Doubt.

    #2: Kira sucks ass at interacting with people, very much like Athrun, eventhough he might not show it as clearly, but he really is bad at it. I'll take the same time when Amagi and them came to the Archangel as example. When Amagi understood what Kira meant, and explained everything, and Kira apologized, he got all: "Uhm... ah... uhm..." -when they started calling him Kira-sama and saluting him. :p

    Hm... what more can I say...

    For me its like this:

    Liking for Kira: [ |||||||||||||||| ]

    That's how much I like Kira's character in overall.

    Liking for Shinn: [ |||| |||||||||||| ]

    That's how much I like Shinn's character in overall.

    But then again, that's just my biased opinion.
     
  21. 3rdStrike A Hedgehog's Dilemma

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    Flaws of Kira? here we go...

    1. He feels that he is superior amongst everything. I guess, I really dislike him when he just have this power to do whatever he likes.
    But what can he do. As the one who defeated Raw and Providence, he is probably the most oustanding pilot out there. It's not like things turn out any better if he didn't intervene anyway. His goal when interevning is to stop the EA and Zaft and he did it so that they are a min. casualties. If he didn't stop Minerva, the whole entire ORB fleet is going to be wiped out. If he didn't stop ORB, the Minerva would have sank into the bottom of the sea. Either way, if he didn't stop, things may have been worse.

    2. He's selfish.
    He is always at Cagalli's standpoint, but never at Athrun's or Shinn's. Which I sometime really hate. I mean Athrun is his best friend, and he hardly understands how much effort Athrun has put to make things better for Zaft and the Orb, at least Athrun tried to until he got *ahem* manipulated by the chairman.

    3. He doesn't understand the bigger picture.
    I guess this is one of his HUGEST problems. He isn't able to grasp the consequences of his actions for other people. I guess he didn't take the innitiative to even understand the different viewpoints of the EA and Zaft that Athrun was able to.


    but.. i do want to add something after I compared Shinn and Kira in SEED.

    In other words, Shinn's just not mature enough to be a soldier! Compare to Athrun and Kira who were also kids back then at SEED and even Lunamaria and Rey, they are more mature. At least Kira felt remorseful after killing someone from every battle, at least he respected that person's life. Shinn in this case seems like everyone in this world owes him something because he lost his entire family back then and thus, he has the very right kill everyone who is in his way. He abuses the use of a Gundam. He destroy things that are merely able to harm him. Where are his morals?? No and don't tell me that he isn't able to learn morals beacuse of witnessing the death of his sister. I am sure at that time everyone lost their loved ones during the fight between Freedom and Calamity back at SEED. Thus, should these people hold a grudge at Kira? At Orb? At Cagalli and for the entire world? My Shinn really needs to grow up! He really needs to get the fact that he isn't the only one that lost his loved ones.

    I could have carried on... but I'll save it for later..
     
  22. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    Haha, so true! I'm like Shinn+Naruto+Shuichi.

    So yeah, let's stick phase-32 in the past. I've been wondering about their future together; will they join forces against Logos, or will they remain at loggerheads? Obviously we're gonna have a fair bit of Archangel vs. Minerva action for the next few eps, which will be an interesting topic for here when we see it. But how about the end of the series?

    I personally think they'll team up. Kira and Shinn are both so popular (#1 and #7 in male anime character rankings respectively) that to demonize one of them could be a disaster for Bandai. But, similarly, making Shinn into a 'bad-but-good' villain, a little like Char, could work wonders as well.

    Edit: Above post - you're saying Kira was a more mature soldier in the first half of SEED than Shinn was? I beg to differ; Kira was mental. He turned against his friends, went completely introvertal (is that a word? :p), had to be dragged out into battle because he was sulking in his room, and was generally as much of a brat as Shinn ever was. He changed, of course, and it's understable given that he was almost forced to fight, but I still don't think he was more of a mature soldier than Shinn is now.
     
  23. 3rdStrike A Hedgehog's Dilemma

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    You meant introverted, I believe. =]

    I absolutely agree what you said above.
    But turning against a friend has nothing to do with being a mature. You call that disloyal and unfaithful. Being introverted is one of Kira's personalities. I mean a quiet, lonely and shy solider can still be mature. You can't say that he is immature because he got dragged out of his room when he doesn't even want to fight. You call that cowardness and selfish.
    Mature as in he didn't abuse the power of a Gundam. Kira completed his mission with minimum destruction or casualties possible made. He didn't abuse the power of Freedom by acknowledging the power of it. On the other hand, was it really necessary for Shinn to whipe out ORB fleets that are sinking already while people are still fleeing and can merely do any harm on him and Minerva? I mean all he can have done is to destroy all the cannons and weapons on the flagship. It was obvious that neither the ORB or Minerva can fight each other anymore when Archangel and Freedom has interevne. Forgiving is the most mature thing that one can do, I would have given Shinn my respect and admiration than to Kira if Shinn didn't take down the flagship with Todoka in it. (Think Maximus in Gladiator where he spared that person's life and won the crowd)
     
  24. Son_Pan Now Here Is Nowhere

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    RIIIIITE, is that why you posted in the SEED Destiny thread on the same day that Mindless' and Chillin' and those guys posted something back? is that why you were online yesterday and viewing THIS thread and didnt say anything until today?!

    CASE CLOSED.
     
  25. staradderdragoon is owning at being a

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    y do u want to stick ep 32 in the past? because it's causing u to lose the debate? lol.... anyhow, u dont think shinn is mental? he thinks to highly of himself (just like kira) and thinks that he can disobey orders.....what a noob...anyhow, i think shinn is mental, i mean he goes crazy after seeing an insane girl die, i guess that's the best shinn can do, take advantage of a psycho girl....while kira has a hot chick, not some fake sl*t...lol
     
  26. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    >.< Again, you two. Don't you read the thread? I wasn't the one that suggested putting ep 32 in the past. Enough has been said about it.

    And Son_Pan, I'm terribly sorry for not posting every single time I come online. I do have a social life; there were friends round, and it would have been incredibly rude to sit on the PC and type a long post. I just wanted to quickly check what had been said. It's a little strange how closely you're watching me, as well. Please stop being quite so condescending; I've done nothing to you, have I? What's the point in going at me just because I like a different character than you? I don't have anything against you or staradder. As I said in the beginning of this thread - don't take dislike to a character as dislike to yourself. That's silly. I'm trying to have a lively, fun, mature discussion here and you're spamming up my thread.

    I don't want to make enemies out of you. Please, drop it, and be a little more accepting of other's tastes in the future, ne? ^_^
     
  27. staradderdragoon is owning at being a

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    okokokokok.....i'll stop harassing you...but its obvious, there are more kira fans than shinn fans and since this is a debate, if u dont support urself, then U LOSE!!!(j/k) but yeah. lol.
     
  28. Kiba-kun "Shinn...suki...."

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    Thank you. Back on topic, PM me if you having anything more to say on the above. I still wanna hear from Son_Pan ^_^

    I agree with you there - this is all because Shinn is the 'berserker', I guess. We don't know anything about that, but perhaps he acted that way because of something else within him, and not out of conscious choice. Looking forward to finding out more about that.
    Discuss. ^_^
     
  29. Chillin The New Sword

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    I really think they are saving all of Shinn's development for the very end, where he will realize that what he is doing is wrong. He will break away from fighting with Kira, meaning he will break his destiny (seems like Dullindal is just setting him up to try and get rid of Kira) and stop whatever piece of space debris or giant space weapon that EA and ZAFT have aimed at each other. Destroying Dullindal's little game of chess he's playing with everyone.
     
  30. staradderdragoon is owning at being a

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    so you mean like shinn will develop like kira? i mean kira practically died, and then came back all superior....but what is this grudge that dullindal has agaisnt kira...maybe he is using shinn as a puppet to kill kira...for some reason, i dont think the EA has the capacity to build a gigantic weapon without zaft knowing. if they did it on earth, it would be obvious and would rip the atmosphere apart. but apart from that, i hate how gundam seed destiny is going. i wish that either the episodes were longer or something...im too impatient to see how shinn will develop into a true berserker like kira....
     
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