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Should we just kill gangs off?

Discussion in 'Perspectives' started by bigbird, Aug 6, 2005.

  1. bigbird

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    I know this sounds harsh, but would we be better off? I mean, they're a menace to society. Fights, shoot outs, murder, rape, and other criminal activites. Even if they are thrown into jail, is it worth our tax dollars to keep them there? When they do get out, who would hire someone with a criminal record? And its obvious they don't want to contribute anything to our society other than causing trouble for the police and the innocent. So why bother to capture them alive?

    I'm taking a very naive approach to this, I think. So I'm curious, what do you guys say? Is killing them off a good solution, or do you believe in spending a ton of money "reforming" them while in jail in hopes of giving them a better life when they leave?
     
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  2. Chamcham Trigger

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    Well nowadays I feel that gangs should just get killed off, because they have lost all of their meaning.

    Gangs started as a community protection program as offspring of groups like the black panthers, and many other militant activist groups. The original cryps are a prime example of this (though if I'm not mistaken, the latin kings may have come first). As time went by their original meaning was lost as older gangs, or community protection programs, started to disband forcefully or due to just the tests of time (especially in Chicago). During the times of the gangs good intentions, many people were sent to jail off of false charges and continued the practices in prison, and the notion got twisted in there to be a protection program from other prisioners. Thus violence between one another surfaced, by seperating the people in jail into gang factions.

    the valient behavior of gangs ended when the bloods started. It was started by an ex cryp who killed like 6 of his own thus the name. Now we have the evil gangs we see today. So I guess they should be killed off then, since they are poisoning our youths big time today.
     
  3. explicitkarma

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    Yup! Who needs due process; right to a fair trial; right to life, liberty, and property; and right to peacefully assemble. It's not like there's a federal constitution that grants all citizens those things. Once we do away with those things, this sets a precedent that government is allowed to take action, lethal action if I use your example, for anything they wish without due process. While violent gangs are obviously not a good factor for society, the same actions could be taken against peaceful groups with minority opinions.

    Yeah, i'm for that.
     
  4. Chamcham Trigger

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    well I was figuring that was what he ment when he wanted to eliminate gangs. Through the justice system. Crack down on them hardcore and stuff.:smile-big
     
  5. Nybarius

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    When Britian colonized India, they systematically killed off the Thugs, a gang whose numbers and history make every US gang of today combined look puny. They hung them all. Problem is, if you're not colonizing alien territories, it's sort of hard to justify that against citizens. I vote for democracy and say: no.
     
  6. Chamcham Trigger

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    Well democracy says that if we use the justice system then everything should be fine with their elimination. Just give them life or the death penalty if they are convicted of murder. I hate the death penalty though and as I said before, torture rules. Please don't take me too seriously people.
     
  7. lekki

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    I hardly feel killing anyone off is kosher these days. You'll just end up with a shit storm.
    Also, it's hard to classify what a gang member is. I mean, do we just prosecute the ones over 18? Because a lot of gang members are below that age. What about their girlfriends and wives who must know what they're up to?

    And is it just by being a member that you're screwed or do you have to have done something first?

    These and numerous other problems make this hard I think. And consdering just about every gang is a minority of some sort, there will be a shit storm and alot of racial tension.
     
  8. dont_look_back

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    punishments arent hard enough thats al but they should bring in the military and have a mass wipe-out of gangs
     
  9. Chamcham Trigger

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    Ah the words of wisdom to set everything in perspective. I guess the creator has been a constant viewer of gang violence and feels that innocent people shouldn't die due to a bunch of people that are poisoning our youths and killing the same innocent people.

    It's really sad how gangs deevolved though. They used to have such a positive motive, now they flipped that image upside down, and it was probably because of the people they were trying to protect themselves from in the first place.

    This is such a difficult discussion, but I guess that's why it's in the debate section though.
     
  10. Nihonjin

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    Hmm..what I think, is that we should have a special Island, no way of reaching it except by helicopter...

    Anyone with a sentence of 20 years or higher gets dropped on that Island (with all of his other 20+ year psyco buddy's)
    They can't swim back because of sharks...
    So they have 2 options, start a new society and make their own laws and prison...
    Or either continue their carnage and kill of everyone, untill their is only 1 person\group left.

    Anyway would be a nice "sayonara" to the normal society.
    And ehm btw, in 20 years (when you've served your time) you'd be picked up again, from that Island (if you're still alive -_-).
    I asure you, 20 years with people psyco'er than yourself, and their rules...you'd never commit a crime EVER again....problem solved O_O

    Anyway, back to the gang member thing....
    I'm against killing people in general, so wasting them just because they're a "menace" to society..thats just bull.
    Ofcourse they're a menace, ofcourse they're a danger to other people, but so are everyday psyco's and other serial killers, they get a fair trial aswell, why shouldn't gang members?
    Everyone deserves to be treated equally...so either every criminal gets shot, or they get a "fair" trial..I'd vote the second.
     
  11. Kahve

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    Been watching Boondock Saints ? :)
     
  12. Chamcham Trigger

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    or it could have been George Carlin.
     
  13. explicitkarma

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    He gave no reference to the justice system at all. I agree that there needs to be more concentration on violent crimes across the board. However, I do not agree with simply "killing off the gangs", especially with how vaugely put bigbird's post was. I just do not feel comfortable with giving special distinctions to "gang members" because that can be a vaugely defined term. A criminal is a criminal, gang or no gang.
     
  14. Nybarius

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    Instead of slaughtering gang-members like so many pigs, why don't we instead cut off what makes being in a gang so lucrative: the cash-flow provided by selling drugs. And since the Reagan strategybook for doing this doesn't seem to have worked very well, how about we try decriminalization & taxation?

    When alcohol was prohibited, there was a dramatic upsurge in gangs too, yaknow. The time of Al Capone and all them. With crack, heroin, dust, glass, and all the rest off the streets and safely distributed to constenting adults through official channels, I'd guess that the Crips and the Bloods, for instance, would wither on the vine quite a bit.
     
  15. falconmain

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    not really... most gangs are formed through protection and local pride. crip and bloods are just the major well known ones but there are many many others that just go thugging or simple a social group that choices to "protect" their turf from other groups outside their neighborhood. The debate over deciminalization is a rather complicated one and no doubt would hurt some of the drug running gangs but as long as there is a large group of impoverished people there will be gangs of some sort. and even to some extent even the middle and upper class have gangs it is just they don't commit violent crimes so they do not get the publicity street gangs get.
     
  16. Nybarius

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    In that case, falconmain, your solution to gangs is even more expansive than mine: an all-out war against poverty. I think that our two views are quite compatible, however; in my post I chose to focus on one major factor which drives gangs, but of course it's only part of the larger whole you allude to.
     
  17. explicitkarma

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    Even better yet, we can use the ultimate weapon, education and outreach/afterschool programs. This at least gives the impoverished a fighting chance of not having to rely on gangs for support.
     
  18. Nybarius

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    Well, all the outreach in the world won't do you any good when kids are facing a choice between dead-end manual labor which pays shite (if they're lucky; if not, public assistance) and making a (nervous) $50,000/yr selling rock.

    Every bit of positive community involvement helps, though.
     
  19. Chamcham Trigger

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    Do you have any idea of how much worse drugs like crack and dust, and heroine etc. are then alcohol? If drugs were legalized and cheaper, this world would be destroyed in days. If crack houses became legal......man I don't even want to think about that anymore.
     
  20. Nybarius

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    chamchamtrigger: I say alcohol is worse. It causes more violence, more brain-damage, more traffic fatalities, and generally more harm to body and society than crack, heroin, cocaine, etc. However, I have at least a dim grasp of what happened when it was prohibited. I'm not just taking the piss, this is what I really believe; if you're interested in why I would think this way I can recommend some reading.
     
  21. Sayo

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    i don't think the ideal appeals to any1 @ bashing in doors and executing people execpt for SS nazi's . . . :/
     
  22. Haruka

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    NOOO!!! My dear uncle is in Tri-ad.
     
  23. Chamcham Trigger

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    Well you should move to Staten Island if you want to see real drug induced violence. Alcohol doesn't make somebody pull a fetus out of a pregnant woman. Alcohol traffic accidents are due to people breaking the law and is just as bad as a crack head behind the wheel. Plus I have read about the effects of drugs on the body (including alcohol since it is considered a drug) ever seen the effects of angel dust on the brain? It's horrible. I used to intern for the staten Island university hospital so I know a little about body conditions caused by different drugs. Drugs like heroine is much much harder to get off of than alcohol. And unlike getting off of alcohol there is a death risk involved when trying to get off of heroine.

    I know you meant no harm when you reccomended a little reading to me, but I do read quite a lot about this and many other things, and believe me, alcohol is only worse now because it is cheap and available to many people.

    But I do understand how legalizing drugs would kill off gangs, but at what cost.
     
  24. Nybarius

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    Well, have you ever been around people with Korsikoff's syndrome?

    Also, there was a time in American history when cocaine was perfectly legal and even sold in soda. There was no widespread societal breakdown. In general, the people who are going to use whatever drugs are going to find them one way or the other; the difference we can make is this: are they going to be getting something cut up from the street in an uncertain dose and criminally obtained, or are they going to get a reliable dose from a trusted pharmacist?

    By the way, alcohol is more addictive than crack & PCP, and I can pull out insurance company analyses (which are typically VERY on-point, because billions of dollars hinge on them) to attempt to prove that alcohol's greater harm to society isn't just due to it being easy to obtain.
     
  25. Praetoriani

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    Why don't they start fixing the problem by the root instead of when it has already happened? Many European countries do not have the gang problem nearly as much as the US has. In fact, I've lived in Amsterdam for 10 years and I've never even seen a gang.


    Think about it. What does western Europe have that the US doesn't, that may prevent gang violence?


    You know the answer, and you know how to solve the problem. It might need a total reform of the tax and welfare system though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2005
  26. Nybarius

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    Praetoria: And let's not forget -- decriminalization! Plays perfectly into my point.

    If we want people to stop forming gangs, we should offer economic incentives (built into the structure of society, not pasted on top of it like welfare) so as to make a life in a gang seem unappealling.
     
  27. Chamcham Trigger

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    I already stated how I understand how your plan to legalize drugs would kill off gangs. I also stated heroine, not crack, is really hard to get off of .....or did I mention crack I should check back on my post. Anyway there is not as much of a risk of death when getting off of alcohol as heroine. you aren't poking holes into your body when drinking alcohol (which is a double edged sword because even though there is no risk of air bubbles entering your blood stream, it is easier to abuse).

    I would keep going on, but now that I think about it..... you are kind of right, because we should have a right to make choices of what to put into our body. And I'm being sincere on this point not sarcastic. Plus I don't wanna get in trouble for putting threads off topic again.
     
  28. bronzhawk

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    Yes, but not in the sence you are saying. We should get ride of "or kill off" the gang infalstructure. Make it so that you do not want to be in a gang. The law inforcement should use the media to their advantage. Have video footage of catching gang leaders, heavily publicis their sentices. Have harsher punishments, and the like.
     
  29. Nybarius

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    Hehe, don't worry, I'm the off topic king, and the mods like me right now, so it should be cool.

    Well, heroin overdoses mostly occur because people aren't sure of the dose they're getting. Were it legal and regulated by the FDA, that would never be a problem.

    There are people who live very productive lives while addicted to opiates the whole time. The depredations of the "junkie" lifestyle are mainly causes by starvation, extreme poverty, and the erratic criminal life.

    This isn't to say heroin is good for you, if anything, but with free needles, a regulated, legal supply, and far lower prices, addicts could actually function in society, rather like caffeine addicts do now.

    Another confounding factor with heroin is that extreme addiction is often comorbid with depression; if there wasn't a veil of secrecy cast over heroin users & abusers due to its illegality, they could be identified and aided accordingly.

    bronzhawk: Scare tactics don't work when all the economic logic dictates you join a gang and start selling drugs. If deterrence actually did work, then presumably we should have very little crime in America, as we have one of the very highest imprisonment rates amongst first-world nations; however, the opposite is true.
     
  30. Chamcham Trigger

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    I'm with Nybarius on that one (danm you and your conversion tricks). Scare tactics haven't worked with anything. I know some people who did some scared straight type of things when we were in highschool and some of them are dead now due to being involved with gangs, my close friend was killed by one within his own faction. SPECTA never worked and scare tactics definately won't work. Higher sentences may have an effect on a few, but most will just increase the price thus crime will just increase to pay for the increased prices on drugs. The price would go up due to it being a higher risk to sell drugs itself.

    But I shouldn't just spend time knocking back your guys plans I should think of a good theory of eliminating gangs.
     
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