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Some thoughts on Pornography and Paedophilia

Discussion in 'Perspectives' started by HyugaHinata, Aug 26, 2005.

  1. HyugaHinata

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    I was having a discussion with some people a few weeks ago, and the subject of violent pornography (which is banned in Australia) came up. They said that it was illegal because most of society thought that it was bad for society (without any real proof, IMO), so I thought that it was an example of tyranny by majority. They were indignant and said that there was no comparison between banning violent porn and slavery. They also said that most people now know that laws against sex in anything but missionary-style are victimless crimes that no one follows any more.

    So I asked where the victim was when consensual violent porn was made. She said that it could create a black market for real violence (which would be cheaper) and endanger people in 3rd world countries. The other guy then also linked it to snuff films (with real death and murder). If that's the case, then wouldn't violent movies encourage the same thing for them? Not to mention the shocked and desensitized censors in Australia who review all films and ban a few - should they be shuffled around every few years? Regardless, banning something harmless because of a potential 'niche' black market is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO.

    Now, onto paedophilia. I agree that molesting and sexually abusing children is wrong, and those who do it should be punished. That said, such a goal is not achieved by targeting irrelevant issues, such as cartoon paedophilia (if anything, letting pedos look at this reduces real child rape by letting them get their jollies of something fake with no victims. Some people look at it because they wanted to have sex while they were younger teenagers).

    Also, the film Ken Park was banned in Australia because it had over-18s pretending to be under 16 and having sex. I didn't see a problem with this because they were over 18, and thus legally allowed to be in pornography. My cousin got angry and said "But they're pretending to be under 16, right? That's just wrong!"

    So, being 18 isn't enough to be in porn, you have to look over 18 as well? I thought these laws were based on mental maturity, not how old someone looks. Once again we have a law that protects no one and reduces civil rights.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2005
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  2. explicitkarma

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    I agree. As long as there are no real victims, I could care less what my neighbor's fetish is and what he or she watches or does in their bedroom.

    Same goes to adult film makers. As long as everybody is of legal age and consenting, power to them.

    Regardless of such fantasy films being banned, those fetishes are going to be out there. No banning of adult films will stop that from being true.
     
  3. HyugaHinata

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    Thanks for the support. I'd also like to add that although such busybodies are trying to 'stop child rape' by forbidding pedophilles to whack off to fake pictures, by doing so they are increasing the likelihood of child rape by not allowing pedos to release their sexual frustration in a harmless way.

    One controversial case occured earlier, and I disagree with what the perpetrator did. He took a photo of an underage girl's face, and put it onto the body of an adult woman using computer graphics editing. While I don't think what he did qualifies as 'child porn', he had no right to do that to the girl's face.

    Another thing social conservatives tried to do was ban any photo taking of children at sports carnivals for fear of the pictures being used by pedophiles, but that was stopped after public outrage.
     
  4. kapsi

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    The thing is, maybe lolita hentai etc can enhance uh...pedo inclinations?
     
  5. Cthulhu-versailles

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    How is violent pornography not effecting the people watching it ?

    There have been psycological studies conducted that had males watch 1 porno movie a day for several weeks and then questions where posed. The results showed that the males showed less remorse for women who had been raped and thought that rape itself was not that big a deal. They also ask them questions regarding punishment and those who watched the largest content of porn ( study also had some watch 3 or 4 movies daily) recommendation the lowest amount of jail time which was 1-2 yrs FOR RAPE .

    This type of study has been done several times, in sevral varitions using both men and women and the result have always shown a correlations between high pornagraphy exposure and disregard for women as well as the punishment that should be give to the perpetraitors.

    The above study was also only ussing "normal" types of porno.

    Violent porn exist for individuals who wish to perfomr those violent acts onto others. You may argue that watching such things releives them and said urges. However in reality it only desensitize them to the pain and suffering of others. It also actually arouses them further which contray to what your saying makes them want to act out what thier seeing more and more.

    This isn't a question of- well the female consented to the making of the violent porn, but the overall dangerous effects the viewing of the violent porn has. Thier are plenty of fetish markets but no one has felt the need to ban them because they do not have very real and dnagerous affects on the population, specifically the female population.

    You have the right to film the violent porn, but the state has the right to stop it from being shown if, provides a very real threat to society. (violent porn is treated as a criminal and that's the way it should be)
     
  6. HyugaHinata

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    I think of it this way - are they able to rape a child while reading lolita? Not likely - their hands are tied up, so to speak.

    Rape is a horrible crime and should be punished much more severely than that. Still, how do they know that it was the pornography that made them act that way and that they didn't have similar ideas before the trial?

    Not necessarily. Some people like bondage and domination. They only 'hurt' others with their consent. Also, I think society should let consenting adults do what they want in their own bedroom, look at whatever porn they wish to in their own bedrooms, and that society should only arrest people that actually cause harm.

    Your analogy is very similar to the (invalid) claim that violent video games cause violence.

    Any studies for this? I play violent video games and I don't want to kill or hurt anyone.

    I still fail to see the harm you are asserting.

    I disagree. What's really criminal is the affront to civil rights.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2005
  7. Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

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    Let me quote specifically:

    Free Speech is the name of the god i worship.
     
  8. explicitkarma

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    Pedo inclinations to watch fake pedo porn, or to lure children into their van? I think that any person who would even consider doing the second thing already had deranged problems before he or she even saw a fake pedo porn film. Also, we can't stop the imagination. So to make legislation against fake pedo porn is rather pointless if people can 'imagine' adult porn as child porn, thus "increasing said inclinations" anyway.


    That's all great. Even though there are people who are able to differentiate their fantasy from reality, let's ban violent art because some people are too stupid to differentiate fantasy from reality. That makes perfect sense. While we set that precident, we cannot stop there. We must ban all "violent" video games, even historical war video games. We must ban all "violent" movies, including Lifetime movies that speak against violence against women, but happen to have violence in them. Who cares if it gives the First and Fourteenth Amendments a black eye? Do you really suggest that?
     
  9. mike_william

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    This debate always goes the same way. Tight asses come in and say "violent media instigates violent behavior", and then the sane people come in and say something along the lines of "I watch murder on TV every day and have no inclinations towards killing somebody", and then some fundamentalists come in and start preaching against violent media in the name of whatever omnipotent thing-a-ma-bob they pray to.

    After this everybody gets frustrated and goes to watch some porn, even the fundies. Lets just skip the arguement and start right away with the fap fap fap.
     
  10. Stormy

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    :mad RABBLE!! RABBLE!! RABBLE!! RABBLE!! RABBLE!! RABBLE!! RABBLE!!:mad
     
  11. Moritsune

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  12. Scorpio3.14

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    Mirror Mask

    Yes, its just us right wing nut jobs pulling stuff out of our asses because we get our kicks out of takeing away rights for no reason at all :laugh

    Perhaps I will address this further later, Im tired and off to bed lol
     
  13. Nybarius

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    They're a buncha bleeding pussies. They've got sandy vaginitis.

    Scorpion: Notice how all those studies are from the 80s, a clear indicator of their poor methodology. Cherrypicked nonsense like that doesn't prove diddly squat.
     
  14. HyugaHinata

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    Well, the Right Wing does seem overly focuses on control, especially when it involves a person's private life. With abortion, you might have an argument, but I don't think you can justify making things like gay sex illegal. Do you really think that allowing sodomy will lead to adults having sex with prepubescent children being legal? I honestly hope you don't. Your policies don't prevent crime or protect children.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2005
  15. Scorpio3.14

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    We all know that all studies in the 80's are obviously false and should be completely ignored lol Cherrypicking would be ignoreing this studies because you dont like the results. Unless humans have drastically changed in the last 20 years, these studies still stand. If you want to bring up some of your own studies to support your side, go ahead. However I feel I have shown that there is a base for my stance for those who think we conservatives just make up stuff because we get our jollys out of it or something.

    And I can say that the Left Wing seems to overly focus on control, expecially when it involves people's income, property, and buisnesses. I can also say that your policies dont prevent crime or protect children. But then we would just be going in a circle, wouldnt we? :wink
     
  16. explicitkarma

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    In response to this link: Mirror Mask

    So what should we be focusing on? The pornography that troubled and non-troubled people view alike, or why these people are troubled in the first place? Because I doubt these rapists were perfectly normal people before they accidently stumbled upon a hardcore pornographic film and suddenly turned to a life of a rapist.

    Because only serial murderers look at pornography. That must mean I went to high school with a lot of serial murderers. I may or may not be a serial murderer myself. :) Pornography, I believe, is a common profile characteristic of a lot more people than serial murderers.

    Once again, we're talking about already-angered rapists. No normal human being would do such acts to another. It's rather unfair to put the blame on pornography.

    With these rapists, would their arousal for rape depictions dissapear after we outlawed pornography, in particular violent pornography? Actually, that's irrelevant because we'd be looking at a black market for pornography. Ridiculous, yes.

    Also, all the 35% of male college students need to even think about a rape is alcohol, a good college party where scantily clad women are, and a boner. But of course, pornography is to blame. I'm just glad that at least 65% of male college students have the values not do such a thing. It could easily be the other way around given how parenting is today.

    Once again, banning (violent) pornography would solve this misconception? Proper education on this, or any, subject must be a joke. It also must not be the parents fault at all.

    I like how by putting sex offenders to the side, he highlights all pornography users, as if they all have "an increased tendency to 'act out' sexual activities", while the pattern mainly appears in sex offenders.

    I view pornography. But I don't believe I have lost compassion towards rape victims, nor do I view rape as trivial at all. I believe that the act is degrading, it violates people's right to privacy and well being, and the harshest penalties should be thrown at people who commit the act. I haven't lost any concern about the effects of pornography on others. I believe it depends on the person whether pornography is ok to view or not, but I emphasize the differences between fantasy and reality. I do not believe pornography is for people who cannot grasp those differences. I understand that pornography can be, and mostly is, an addiction. But I also emphasize that for the people who enjoy their addiction in a safe manner, what they look at in their bedrooms should be regulated as little as possible. Because what they watch and do in their rooms is nobody elses business.

    Yet they fail to present that "clear relationship". However, I do believe it is there. Yet, once again I say that people who actually would go through with said acts are already deranged. Why?

    Because this study shows that 58% of the 48.000 sex crimes investigated in Michigan, there was no pornography involved in the incident. This shows less of a coorelation between pornography and sexual preditors and more of a coorelation between being fucked up in the head and (violent) sexual preditors.

    Pornography isn't intended for ages six to ten. Parents really need to be stepping up and doing their damn job. Of course if little kids see violent acts of pornography, or any pornography, without parenting to set it in place, the kid is going to come out as a rapist.

    Because love = only sexual attraction. There are always going to be more attractive women and men out there than your significant other. Big deal. That's no reason to love them any more or less. Nor is this a reason to hold pornography as a higher threat over bad parenting, poor communication between partners, and being stupid all together. These studies are really bringing out the wack-jobs.


    In conclusion, today's parents suck. Quit blaming pornography for all of these problems.


    edit:
    There is nothing wrong with the studies. However, using these studies to try to ban pornography, be it regular, hardcore, fake violent, or fake pedo, is moot. The studies link violent sexual preditors to experiences with pornography at an early age. Pornography isn't intended for minors. It is intended for adults who can seperate fantasy from reality, and preferably are able to control themselves. While it is true that a lot of sexual predators have used pornography before, or during, their acts of violence, they have been troubled before. The pornography is not the direct cause for their actions, unless these sexual predators were viewing it at the ages of six through ten without proper parental foundations to establish right between wrong and fantasy between reality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2005
  17. Nybarius

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    Scorpio: as the previous post shows, all those studies suffered from biased samples, and thus are not applicable to society in general. Furthermore, the point I was making earlier is that research methodology has improved since the 1980s. Find me a large, well-controlled, modern study with a relevant sample and you might prove something.
     
  18. Scorpio3.14

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    My intention of quoteing those cases was not to try to prove that porn should be banned or whatever. It was mianly in response to mike_william's extremely poor statement -__-. Also as a response to HyuugaHinata's "well if the sicko's can whack off to fake child/rape porn maybe they wont go out and do it" theory, which is bull IMO

    These studies (well a lot of them, I was to lazy to pick and choose the good ones so I just linked the whole site lol) are not ment to show that a normal person is going to become a rapist or child molester because of a certain type of porn, but when a person is already sexually unstable/messed up, watching these types of porn increase the likely hood that they will act upon their desires.

    If such a conclusive study existed there really wouldnt be much of a debate about this now would their lol I never indicated that these studies should be 100% trusted, in fact I would question quite a few of them. But the fact of the matter is that these were proffesionally done studies that all show similar results. You can ignore them if you wish, but didnt you say its not good to cherry pick?
     
  19. Nybarius

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    Yes, I choose to ignore them because they're not pertinent to this debate, as they concern themselves with limited samples (violent rapists, sex offenders, etc.) that aren't necessarily reflective of society as a whole. It is in fact good to cherry-pick when you pick studies which will be the most germane to your topic. It's bad to cherry-pick when your picks are motivated by a partisan point, and not getting the most comprehensive & accurate view of the subject.
     
  20. green tea96

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    violence is different from pornagrophy, you wouldn't go kill someone after playing halo or some other game but if you were watching pornography and got really horny you would probably wanna have sex or rape someone
     
  21. explicitkarma

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    What exactly is the difference again in the comparison? What we're looking at is the effect of a medium on an individual. Both media in question (violent games and pornography) are fantasy. Also, both are under fire for "warping people's perception on reality." So you can't have it both ways if you want to get in on the argument.

    My bad. It just seemed like that was the side of the argument you were coming from. The link you posted didn't directly say it, but the suggestion of banning pornography is implied heavily in the article.

    Actually, I believe the article suggests that pornography has those effects on normal people as well. Studies such as Zillmann, Dolf (1982) and Gutierres, et al (1983), where average people were surveyed and studied suggest that males may devalue the role of women, lose sympathy for rape victims, and lose interest in their partners.
     
  22. HyugaHinata

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    No, you would be using false assertions to prove your point. The Left (and liberals) are worried about crime, but the methods we go about stopping it are different. We worry about poverty, because desperate people do desperate things to survive.

    You and your ilk on the other hand, seem preoccupied with inventing 'crimes' that harm no one, such as gay sex, which could get you jailed in Texas until a few years ago.

    If you read the article (or even the highlighted quotes) posted by Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki, you would have seen the reduction in sex crimes in countries with liberal attitudes to pornography. Your ignorance of this fact does not help your point.
     
  23. Rook

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    Sexuallity and violence are more different than you realize (psycologically anyways). The human being naturally tries to avoid real life violence to avoid getting injured. However, sex is not something that we are accustomed to seeing since our childhood. It is something kept under the radar by disserning adults so that their kids do not find out about it until they're old enough.

    As for the pedophilia issue you raised (about letting pedophiles watch certain cartoons to fulfill their own desires), it does not suppress these sexual feelings. Instead, it only leaves the person momentarily suppressed, but completely unfulfilled. He feels like he needs more, and the feelings only increase with time.

    Take an example. Dr. James Dobson interviewed serial rapist Ted Bundy before he was to be executed. As it turns out, those sexual urges inside Bundy began with just a simple Victoria's Secret magazine. Soon, his life became a landslide as he moved from a magazine, to porn, to raping and murdering women.

    I'll sum it up with this. As a "normal" person, you and I can view violence and sex in video games and movies and not let it affect our lives. But there are many out there who are deeply affected by what they see, and without good counceling and direction, produce tragic consequences.
     
  24. HyugaHinata

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    Yes, Rook, it is possible for people to get twisted into rapists from porn, but I haven't seen anyone trying to ban Victoria Secret catalogues because of one abberant reader. Punishing the innocent along with the guilty is not practical or fair. We don't ban cars because of drunk drivers. Yes, you may argue that porn has no 'benefits' to society that cars have, but I disagree. It helps the economy, and makes people happy. Not everyone is lucky enough to have sex often enough to satisfy their drives, and their drives cannot be suppressed easily in most cases.
     
  25. Rook

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    You are correct in that. Nobody can ever be satsfied forever because a human's sexual drive is constantly there. It's the same way with rapists and pedophiles. Even after prison sentences and counciling, many go right back into raping more victims. It happens so often that I believe the only real way to deal with convicted molesters is castration.
     
  26. Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

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    So the solution is to ban Victoria's Secret!

    YES!
     
  27. senisi

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    All I can really say is that some people like it raw...Getting hurt turns them on I personally don't understand this because I for one don't like getting hurt in any way shape or form.
     
  28. Raistlin-sama

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    What an incredubly flawed argument... Where excactly is the diffrence, or rather why do you proclaim that there is such a diffrence between the two, with no facts at all?

    You say that watching pornography wil "probably" make you want to rape someone... I think anyone with a bit of sense can see the blatant untruthfulness of that statement.

    And then the doublestandards... pornography does make you want to do what you are seeing, but games do not?
    Incredible!


    Anyways, to get back to the topic at hand. As long as noone is hurt by an action (fake rape, hentai rape, lolicon and whatever) I see no problem with it.

    Let people see what they want... As someone have already mentioned, it helps them sastify their urges.

    Look at it like this instead, what would you rather have?

    That someone masturbate to the fantasy (and fake images) of rape, or that they go out and do it in reality?

    Of coarse it's not like every single person who watches hardcore porno movies, would have raped someone if they weren't allowed to see it, but I honestly believe that it stops more people from commiting these acts, then it encorouges...
     
  29. HyugaHinata

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    I believe that by allowing paedophiles to look at fake child porn, the incident of real child molestation and rape would be decreased. Sex dolls for paedophiles would also help in this endeavour.

    There would also be another benefit to this path - by allowing paedophiles to relieve their tension this way, they would have even less of an excuse to go out and prey on little children, because they could have sex will non-living dolls.

    The best arguments I've heard against it is that it weakens the morals of society and could lead to the acceptance of paedophilia against real children.

    I find those arguments insulting and logically unsound. They invoke a slippery slope, and it implies that people cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality, which is insulting, patronizing and condescending, in my mind.

    Also, apparently you can get around the cartoon kiddie porn law by having the characters say that they are over 18. So, my idea to mock the laws was to draw foetuses inside the mother having sex, and have them 'say' "We are over 18!" in a comic bubble. XD
     
  30. Uchiha_Kachiki

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    I agree with this statement. If a person doesn't have something fake. It will keep being suppressed until it just happens one day to a real situation.

    It can be like anger. What happens to a person who keeps their anger bottled up day, after day, after day... they will explode in a malevolent fury.

    It will weaken our society? That doesn't make sense. Regardless of how much censorship a country has they can still be violent, sex driven, etc.

    Is censorship ok? Yeah sure, but the levels everyone pushes it to are quite ridiculous.
     
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