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Something to remember in comic book matchups

Discussion in 'Meta Battledome' started by Literally Exaggerated, May 19, 2005.

  1. Literally Exaggerated

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    When making these fights using manga characters or movie or book characters, there generally exists a fairly good idea of what powers, exactly, each character has. This is because most of those works have one primary creator who was involved throughout.

    But in comic books, this really isn't the case. New writers come and go for a given series, and a given character may appear in several different series simultaneously. This means that for a lot of famous, popular characters, there abilities have varied dramatically depending on whose writing them. This was really true for pre-crisis DC, where Superman would randomly manifest insane, radically inconsistent powers every issue. But it has remained true post-crisis, and is true of Marvel as well.

    Take for example Batman, one of the more popular characters in comics and on this board. He has been written as everything from a brutal thug with a couple gadgets (DKR) to DC's answer to Reed Richards and the smartest guy in comics (Morrisson's stint on JLA). Although there is a ton of variation from writer to writer, generally post-crisis Batman can be placed into two distinct camps.

    1.) Batman when he's in his own comic. These are the comics that take place in Gotham. The JL don't show up, the threats are criminal rather than galactic, and Batman is an awesome fighter and the world's greatest detective, but not superhuman in either. He faces off against guys like the Riddler ot Two-face, his gadgets are limited to the realm of advanced modern tech, and while he's certainly super intelligent, he can still have his back broken by a guy like Bane.

    2.) Batman when he's with the Justice League. In these comics, Batman is turned into a guy whose brains, resources and training put him on par with demigods like Hal Jordan, Superman and Wonder Woman. He's not just 1 or 2 steps ahead of everyone else, he's like 500 steps of everyone else. Give him some string and a grapefruit and ten minutes to plan and he'll use them to beat Darkseid. In these comics, he really is DC's answer to Reed Richards, only more badass.

    Generally speaking on these boards we're talking about Batman #2.

    Another character whose abilities vary dramatically is Wolverine. In some comics, it takes him a couple hours to fully heal from stab wounds or gunshots. In others, he fully regenerates from having most of his body burnt to ash within under a minute, and one time he was reduced to a single drop of blood and regenerated back to full health (stupid, I know, I didn't write it). Conversely to Batman, Wolverine tends to be at his strongest when he's in his own comic, and is often made weaker when placed in a group (see his recent humiliating loss to Beast).

    Or look at Quicksilver. In most comics, like when he was with the Avengers or the Brotherhood, his max speed varied from somewhere between Mach 1 and Mach 3. But when he was given his own comic, this increased to where he could do like Mach 10.

    Just something I thought people should consider when talking about comic book fights, as there may be some confusion resulting between people who are talking about a character written one way and others who are thinking of that character written another way.
     
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  2. mow

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    This thread warrants a sticky IMO.

    To comic fans on board: If you please, do share some other variations in comic characters similiar in fashion to LE's post.
     
  3. Reznor Administrator

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    Spoiler: DBZ v. anything
    There is also DBZ match-ups to consider.

    People need to realize that there powers are not at a consistent level thoughout the series.

    If someone would, "probably win" against Frieza saga Goku then they'll get slaughtered by anyone Cell Saga.


    Spoiler: Know the opponent
    Another note - I think that people should be informed of both charcters before voting.
    If it's a character you know vs. a character you don't know.

    For example, if I said Naruto v. Janeba and you don't know who Janeba is, then you can't reason that Naruto should win just based on only Naruto's abilities.
    BTW, Janeba is DBZ movie 12's bad guy


    Spoiler: Fanboyism
    Also, don't let favoritism towards a character affect your judgement. I like Shikamaru, for example, but I wouldn't say that he beat Orochimaru.


    Spoiler: Transistive Property.


    The transitive property: (A > B and B >C means A > C) only applies with abilities that are directly quantitative.

    For example, If I can lift more than you and you can lift more than billy then it is true that I can lift more than billy. This is a situation that is directly quantitative.
    A>B , B>C then A>C because A>B>C

    Alternatively, if scissors beats paper and paper beats rock does scissors beat rock? No A>B>C>A

    Different series tend different ways, DBZ leans to the former whereas Naruto leans to the latter, IMO.

    So comparing characters to others to figure out who wins is fine, but at least address relative strengths and weaknesses if anyone sees any. (i.e. Tayuya vs. Gaara, too many voted Gaara without considering that her ghost things wouldn't be stopped by the sand shield)
     
  4. Havoc

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    your example with wolverine was pretty good but in both the Batman comics and JL he is also 500 steps ahead of everyone.
     
  5. Literally Exaggerated

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    Havoc. Hardly. Or, the current Batman perhaps, but thats mostly because he's had some writers who hate him.

    But when Morrisson was writing Batman...there's a reason he gets called uberbat by fans, it was because Batman went from being a super genius to being some sort of nigh-omniscient, unbeatably intelligent guy who just continually made the reat of the JL look like fools
     
  6. Ninja Genius

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    OMG! You are the LAST person that should bring this up Literally Exaggerated. You always go into your stupid pre-crisis superman routine whenever a vs superman fight is brought up despite the fact that before I told you that not all pre crisis superman had those powers yet you contiuned to do it anyway. It seems when you want things worked out your way you post about it but when it comes to defending someone...
     
  7. Literally Exaggerated

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    You're right Ninja Genius, and thats actually a really good example of inconsistency within a character. In fact, its so good, that I already mentioned it.

    See? Way to go "genius" picking up on something I already acknowledged in the first damn post.

    and for the record, when discussing pre-crisis Superman for fights purposes, i generally operate on the principle of Superman at his strongest, i.e. he has every power he was written to have that was not specifically taken away, at the strongest they were shown to be. Since pre-crisis doesn't exist anymore, this doesn't tend to be that relevant, but there ya go.
     
  8. jkingler

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    ^You sure :pwned the other guy XD.

    I am glad someone is adressing all this. All of the Saiyans are as strong as they need to be and Supes will just come up with a new power and Link's triforce can do all sorts of things we haven't seen yet is getting out of hand, IMO. Hope this sticky limits all that stuff (but doesn't get hopes up too high).
     
  9. Donkey Show

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    But of course BG pwns all, I mean, look what happened to Superman after the fact. O_O



    So we shouldn't really have anymore BG vs. threads if that's the case. XD
     
  10. junidaime

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    Yes

    BG
    GOKU
    Silver Surfer
    Me
    God
    Super Man
    etc...

    ...are all too overpowered to have any kind of sane debate on
     
  11. Ninja Genius

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    Ok I don't want to make this into an arguement but acknowledging something doesn't mean it makes you less of a hypocrite for doing the exact opposite. This whole post is acknowledging that! That one line about pre crisis superman means nothing but added onto the lump of other examples. You would be in the "right" if you acknowledged the fact that you were wrong for doing so.

    Pointing out the fact that you know that pre crisis superman was incosistent and being someone that argued about him as a whole only shows how ignorant you were because you were saying those things even though you knew it was wrong. So there, feel free to TRY to make yourself feel like a smartass again.
     
  12. Literally Exaggerated

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    But I wasn't in the wrong. It seems that you missed the whole fucking point of this thread.

    I never said that anyone should operate off of a given version of any one superhero. All I said was that, because there might be confusion about the abilities of a given superhero because of inconsistency, it might be a good idea to state which version of the superhero you are talking about, i.e. what powers they have. Here, in case you missed it.

    This could mean writer, it could mean comic line, or it could mean just making fucking sure that you make it clear what powers the version of the superhero you are talking about has. This wasn't a moral imperative to talk about a certain version of a character, it was just a statement that because characters can manifest different powers, you should make it clear in some way which powers that character has. If that means saying Wolverine as written by Mark Miller, if that means saying Quicksilver from his own comic, or if that means saying Iceman when he can do this, this and this, whatever, it doesn't matter.

    This is exactly what I did when discussing pre-crisis superman. I sat down and said in very clear terms what powers he had, which is exactly what this thread is asking other people to do. Because I referenced powers from tons of different comics by different writers, it should have been obvious to anyone with something besides shit for brains that I was talking about pre-crisis Superman with every power he had ever had. I mean, that was exactly what I said. I fucking listed them all. How could there possibly have been any confusion about what powers the Superman I was talking about had when I fucking listed them for you.

    Hypocrisy: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness

    Now, if I make a thread saying that people should make it clear what version of a superhero you are talking about so everyone understands what powers they have, and I have previously done exactly that by saying "Okay, I'm talking about pre-crisis superman, with every power he ever had, and here, I'll list them all clearly for you", then is that

    a) hypocrisy
    or
    b) THE EXACT FUCKING OPPOSITE OF HYPOCRISY

    If you picked a, you fail "not being a fucking moron 101". if you pick b, congratulations, you're probably not Ninja Genius.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2005
  13. Ninja Genius

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    You always have to try to be such a smartass don't you, does this make you feel better? Are you trying to prove to others that your 733t or some other stupidness. Whatever I don't care, this is why you are wrong.


    This is what you are exactly saying here: state a certain version of any one superhero. Pre-crisis superman isn't a version, type, or variation of superman, he's the exact opposite. Saying precrisis superman is saying every different version type and variation of superman that happened in those years. You also statet that the logic behind doing that is to prevent confusion from knowing the abilities given to a certain superhero.

    Now tell me how is saying "precrisis superman" not contradicting that? Saying all those different versions of superman that had different types of powers combined together does the exact opposite. It's not stating a variation of superman and it is causing confusion because not all the supermen could do those things that you are listing as so called powers.

    Now you see how that IS hypocrisy, you practicing beliefs stating them and saying that is what everyone should do and you don't do it and then you try to half ass it and make it seem like what you are saying isn't hypocrisy when I cleary showed it as.

    Oh people that use swears and insults during arguements or discussions are people that aren't intelligant enough to put words in the insults postions.
     
  14. Literally Exaggerated

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    Sigh...I see this is a little beyond you, so I'll try to use small words. It doesn't matter what version of a character you use, even if it is a made up one (such as Black Gai), one that never existed in the original story (such as Mangekyou Sharingan Link) or one that is an amalgam of all of the abilities that character has ever shown (precrisis Supes). The point is not demanding absolute adherance to source material, it is making sure that everyone is clear on what powers the person you are talking about has, and how strong they are. If I made up a character called Captain Awesome and put him in a fight, that would be fine, as long as I made absolutely certain everyone knew what powers he had. If I modified a preexisting character, like, say, said Wolverine with the telepathic powers of Professor X, that would be fine too. And if I talk about precrisis Superman as having every one of the myriad powers he was randomly shown to have in different comics, that is fine too, as long as I make sure everyone knows what powers I'm talking about.

    How can it possibly be confusing if I list all of the powers? Its as clear as fucking day.

    Your problem was not that I wasn't being clear on what powers he had, it was that you disputed those powers. You weren't confused (or if you were, you lack the ability to read a list, in which case you're illiterate and/or fairly severely retarted. not that that is entirely implausible), you just thought it was unfair to talk about Superman as having all those powers when he never displayed them all in one comic. I disagree, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is that it doesn't matter what version of a character you are talking about, be it made up, modified, an amalgamate, or an actual copy of a character from a given comic, series or writer. Just so long as you make absolutely sure you specify what powers they have. That is what this thead is about, because if you don't specify in some way, either by naming authors or series, or by listing powers, then arguments just degenerate, because one person might be talking about Wolverine he read in one comic who could heal from a drop of blood, and another might be talking about Wolverine from the movies who took several minutes to heal from a bullet that went like a centimeter in, and they're just going to be arguing fruitlessly forever.

    What. the. fuck. This is not even a sentence. If you want to have any sort of debate, learn fucking english. As it is, I believe I've shown why this is not so much hypocrisy as it is you just completely misunderstanding the intent of this entire thread.

    You misspelled intelligent. Now that is ironic.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2005
  15. Ninja Genius

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    You say now that you want "absolute adherance to source material" but no where was that implied in the original post or the follow up. You stated this at the end of the first post: "as there may be some confusion resulting between people who are talking about a character written one way and others who are thinking of that character written another way." You are basing the different powers of these characters based on the writers and you give examples of different characters powers once again based on the writers. Then you follow up saying that the point was to state the different varitions of each character. Different versions implies a particular form that was already created, predefined if you will. But now all of a sudden in this final post when I pointed all that out, all this means name the different powers they had? How did that change happen? And where exactly is that stated anywhere in the other posts?

    I think you were just backed up in a corner so you just manipulated your own words. If not then it was upon you to clarify or reiterate not lash out like a 12yr old child who wants the attention of others and don't have enough sense to even understand that someone mispelling words doesn't exactly show there overall intelligance.

    But so far as it stands, your post doesn't support each other so I guess you can go ahead and try again.
     
  16. Literally Exaggerated

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    Where did I say I wanted that? Was it right here, when I said

    ?

    Misinterpreting is one thing, but this is just basic comprehension. If I say the point is *not* absolute adherance, then, and this may surprise you, that means I don't give a shit about absolute adherance, so don't put words in my mouth, especially when I've just stated the fucking opposite.

    Its not a change. I was saying that because there are lots of different writers in comics, often some sort of specification is required. This could be listing their powers, or it could be just naming a different writer. Ah fuck it, I already said this a couple of posts ago

    (emphasis added)

    I repeat: this is about making sure everyone is on the same page, whether it be through writer, series, a list of powers, whatever. As I've said over and over again, its *not* about absolute adherance to the source material (note the "not", I know you sometimes miss those), its not about being forced to operate on a different version of a character, its just about making sure everyone knows what powers the version of the character you're talking about has. This could be because of writer, and it most often is, which is why I posted this in the first place. But the point of the post wasn't to say "hey, go adhere absolutely to set written versions of characters" it was to say "hey, there's confusion going on around here, lets clear it up".

    Version: A particular form or variation of an earlier or original type

    Note the absence of the word "predefined" here. Black Moustache Gai is a version of Gai, Mangekyou Sharingan Link is a version of Link, and PreCrisis Supes is a version of Superman.

    Now, whether you feel that PreCrisis Supes can be legetimately used in an argument about Goku vs. Superman is an entirely separate issue, and one on which I admit you have considerably more leg room than you do here.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2005
  17. azn_sephiroth

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    Thank you for clearing this DBZ thing up. I heard enough fan boys say different.......ARG!
     
  18. Kucheeky Badkuya

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    Yeah, can someone tell everyone that:

    Ninjas > Jedi's. There are countless of threads, Ninja vs. Jedi.
     
  19. Reznor Administrator

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    Some of the things about "Cosmics" always annoy me in threads. I'd like to suggest a few things.

    1. Cosmic version should only be asumed when the opponent is of that kind of level.

    i.e. Batman v. Goku means Cosmic Batman v. Goku
    but Batman v. Naruto does not mean Cosmic Batman

    2. Definable powers when possible.

    Alot of their powers seem to come from definitions (such as, He can lift anything or nothing can stop him.)

    Just because that someone gave a transendant property to one of the characters, that doesn't mean it applies to the character he is matched against as that statement is made without knowledge of the other character.
     
  20. backos

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    lets talk about some more loser characters. i mean you are speaking about 1rst class guys tlk about some second rate guys or some manga characters like what if kenshin fought vs samurai deeper kyo or what if spike fought vash or what if lets go back to american comic books what if two average heros fought what if daredevil or the punisher fought someone from the dc universe that iss alsoo a mediocre hero who was the one to win? Lets thing the fact. What do most people like to see win? for example if hellboy fought spawn who would win? personally i believe that spawnhas more power than hellboy but hellboy is cooler and never givves up no matter he will die fighting and then if he survives he will light a smoke leave and say hey bud nice fight but still i won. if goku fought versus superman the one that would win at least if in the pre crisis it would be supes but he is also gaining new powers because of the place he might be. So if at some time goku turns super saiyan supes in the end might also gain som ethiing like that as we all know goku dies all the time and supes has died only once. So if the battle was about power levels it would end up having the same ones.if the battle though was about fighting skills goku would win because he is in martial arts where supes id simply into brute force. if it was about amout energy thhat they could shoot it would be a tie in the beginning then goku would be winning then supes and in the end goku puts all his effort and power gain some more energy super saiyan next level super kamehame ha x10 and boom no supes just kryptonian ashes. This game is really complicated but lets even get two guys that are simillar for both universes. As you might know marvel now has the sentry who is similar to superman but different and more compicated. Who would win a crazy guy who thought that he killed his wife and had no memry of his past because of a bad guy and by the way a guy that none in the universe remembers but they had fought alongside or the superman the alien immigrant that saves the earth all the time even agianst his own species. Now what is the answer to that ? you tell me if you find one that can have real evidence then i give up. i myself right comic books and the truth is that there is only one rule there are no limits you are god as they are you are just using them the way you like!!!!
    Now lets take the case of iceman when emma frost took him under her control she made him do stuff that he did not even imagine . then he asked her to teach him how to do all those stuff again and she just said no. noww what do you all have to say about those stuff
     
  21. Red

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    I agree, comic incarnations very a lot. People should remember that.
     
  22. Sasori

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    lol necro-posting.
     
  23. Endless Mike

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    Not only a necro, but the OP vastly overstates the inconsistency levels.... it's actually somewhat of a brain bug in that many people assume it's true when a lot of the time, it's really not.
     
  24. Sasori

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    Well tbh, the thread is pretty old.

    The OP may have been written to reflect the ideals of the OBD at the time.
     
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