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Speed of invisibility? The key to deciphering speed feats?

Discussion in 'Meta Battledome' started by Giorno Giovannax, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    I always wondered how one can calculate speed feats in which there are no grounding (no information from the author or anything that may help us). Pretty much feats in which one simply move so fast that they disappear from one's field of vision like this:











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    Well, I came up this article that talked about how fast Soujiro was:

    white_bird

    Especially the one that dealt with the speed of invisibility, or how fast you need to be to leave one's field of vision. Now, I don't know if the formula is correct, hence why I made this thread, but it seems pretty consistent since most of these speed feats I posted were between people that stood no more than 50 ft at max, yet vanished from each other's point of view and these people have higher perception than RK characters.

    So, can this formula, at least for now, be used to calculate these types of speed feats especially if there is nothing else working for us.
     
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  2. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    lol I just made a thread like this called "Human Optics" :laugh
     
  3. Dio Brando MADAO

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    *Waits patiently for the Sharingan argument*
     
  4. Wobbly Active Member

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    Well, electrical signals that run through the body, to and from the brain, go at a several hundred mph(I don't know the exact number).

    So, with that knowledge, one can assume that an object would have to be moving at about that speed to be "invisible".
     
  5. Shuntensatsu Fanboy Exterminator

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    Impossible to judge it even with this. You might be able to make a minimum speed for the ability to vanish, but it doesn't change the fact that when a Bleach character vanishes he is moving a shitload faster than a Naruto character when they do.
     
  6. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    Actually it's not. All we would have to do is look at the height or length of where the character who moved vanished in relation to the opponent and then apply that speed. It's pretty consistent also considering in most of these scans, the feats happened in between a distance of 20-30 ft and yet still moved so fast that the other lost track and may I remind you that these are not your average humans, who themselves can see at 50 millisecond, which transfers to 1/6th of an eye blink, and thus 0.16 seconds. That would mean most anime characters should see faster than that, and thus the formula would be quite consistent.

    And no, this is not about who is faster, it's about if that speed formula can calculate feats of that nature (and we can easily find out who is faster depending on max height feats)
     
  7. Finn Mac Cool Active Member

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    However a key issue in this is that the speed of the disappearance depends upon who's doing the watching. Presumably, if you were being watched by someone whose reaction time was double that of the average person's, you'd need to move twice as fast to vanish from their sight. This formula is useful, but still leaves a large margin of error since you have to estimate the reaction time of the people watching it. However, at the very least, this gives us a minimum speed for vanish-from-sight people.
     
  8. Wobbly Active Member

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    What he said....
     
  9. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    I see what you are saying but to assume that people from Narutoverse and Bleachverse automatically have higher reaction time than normal people, which btw is very fast, is an even bigger assumption.

    However, that problem can actually be fixed using the formula. All we have to do is replace the length of feet it gave us with the length of feet at which the person traveled moved.

    For example, here is an calculation that roughly at least gives us a perspective of how fast Byakuya could be moving from his tower feat:

    here.

    (height of building is at least 280 ft, which is 89 meters, pretty small)

    here.

    distance between Renji and the building is at least 30 feet, which is only 9.14 meters)

    Then, we just use this formula and the phytagorem theorem, since the feat is pretty much in the form of a right traingle considering Byakuya reappeared behind Renji and not in front)

    280 squared + 30 squared

    square root of 78400 + 900 = 79300 = 281.6

    So using the speed of invisbility...

    (281 ft / 0.1 sec) x 1 = (281 ft / 0.1 sec) x (10/10) = 2810 ft/sec
    2810 ft/sec x 60 sec/min = 168600 ft/min
    168600 ft/min x 60 min/hr = 10116000 ft/hr
    10116000 ft/hour / 5280 ft/mile = 1916 mph

    Then we convert that into meters per second, which 0.447 (1 mile is equal to that), and you get: 4286 m/s.

    That is VERY FAST and that is just to disappear from a total distance of 281.6 ft, which is actually 85.8 meters, which means that Renji's reaction speed is hella fast and easily 10 to 15 times faster than the normal human being, thus actually solving that error margin since anime characters are assumed to see things at a higher perception, and to be able to keep up at that speed shows immense reaction time.

    I mean, it's the only thing we got going so far since series like Bleach, Naruto don't offer us ways to measure their speed feats. I see this as pretty much as good as it gets.

    EDIT: Even if the person can't keep up with the person who moved, if we find out how fast the person moved, we can easily tell just how fast the person has to be to escape the other's field of vision and still tell us at least an estimate of the reaction time of the one that can't keep up.
     
  10. Shuntensatsu Fanboy Exterminator

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    Wrong again. A DBZ character can see a hell of a lot faster speeds than a Bleach or Naruto character can. The problem is we don't know how many frames per second each anime character can see thus we can never get a true gauge as to what the vanishing speed is since to some characters a person is vanishing yet to others he isn't.

    I mean the gauge would be something like DBZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Getbackers>>>>YYH>>>>>>One Piece>>Bleach>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Naruto. Not a spectacular example I know, just trying to get the point across.

    Which is ok, but the problem is we have no exact numbers to start with to base calculations on so we really can't get a reading on the speeds. Not to mention some characters are vanishing from sight at a fraction of their maximum speeds, it is really impossible to gauge manga/anime speeds with anything other than direct feats or quotes of people saying things like "He is faster than the speed of sound" etc.
     
  11. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    First off, we know DBZ characters are faster than Bleach or Naruto characters because their speed has been estimated to be at speed of lightning (Gotenks feat cements that point). But how did we find out? We calculated the speed it would take to do such a feat, and the same goes for my formula. It simply helps us see how someone can dissappear from one's field of vision from a certain distance.

    Also, realize that in reality, most characters are not really invisible to the characters themselves, just to us. Basically, the mangakas draw the speed feats from a normal human's perception and thus by doing so adds flair to the speed feat, and gives us the appearance that the person went invisible but in reality, did not, and this calculation backs it up since it uses something close tot he human's field of vision.

    Finally, you're picking for straws with the rest of your argument. If we were to do it with frames per second, it would lead to even more assumptions and errors. Why? Because we have absolutely no idea how many frames per second (since we have no clue on how much higher their perception is) each and every anime character can see and thus would cause to assume and exaggerate certain characters.

    The speed of invisibility does not do that. It simply calculates how fast one needs to leave the field of vision of another to appear invisible, and relies basically on distance over time, which is speed itself, and thus leads to less errors than trying to calculate frames per second.

    I recently posted in this thread an estimated calculation of Byakuya's tower speed feat using this formula, and it easily tells us how fast Byakuya was to leave Renji's field of vision, and also tells us Renji's reaction time, and the reason is that even if someone leaves our field of vision temporarily, if our reflexes are pretty high, we can still react to them. What I mean is that people that are able to keep up with high speeds pretty much can notice someone's left their field of vision much faster than someone with lower reaction time.
     
  12. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    Invisibility does not affect reaction time

    Now, just because someone's leave another's field of vision does not mean the other cannot react. It is not that hard to leave one's field of vision, and the example I want to use to prove that is this one:

    Princeton University Press, the Curse of Haam

    In this example, Blueno used soru and evaded Luffy's Gatling Gun easily. But what I want you guys to look at it is the immediate action that follows. Blueno was gone from Luffy's field of vision as you can tell from his location but look at Luffy's reaction. Luffy cocked his head to the right and smacked Blueno while the latter was moving.

    Here's what I am trying to say. Blueno did move from Luffy's field of vision, and thus made himself invisible but Luffy's reaction time was fast enough to notice that Blueno had moved out of his field of vision, then track and hit him hard.

    So, what I am saying is that when looking for the reaction time, we should look at their actions, and not what they see because as I shown, it is very easy to turn invisible.

    According to Limit Tester's calculations, Blueno is easily 1200 m/s, at least four times the speed of sound and Luffy's reaction speed is 1500 m/s and even then Blueno turned invisible as the feat showed, but that did not bother Luffy at all.

    So when a person looks invisible to someone, it does not mean that the other cannot react unless their next action indicates otherwise, and thus the formula actually holds ground for now since the above feat proves my point and the formula itself.
     
  13. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    I agree with Finn Macc Cool that reaction varies greatly from normal humans to super natural beings.

    Anyway, I think we can make a solid base speed for most characters by using that formula. The Byakuya speed looks quite plausible.
     
  14. Limit_Tester Active Member

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    Just a couple of corrections.
    1) The height of the building is probably only about 50 meters (although possibly smaller). You can measure Byakuya and at the top and his relation to the size of the building, through a pixel counter.
    2) You made an error in converting MPH to meters/sec. With the adjusted building height of 50 m that means Byakuya would be theoretically moving at 500 m/s.
    3) Renji never lost track of Byakuya:
    Pocket_Monsters_-_Diamond&Pearl_-_504_DP037
     
  15. Shuntensatsu Fanboy Exterminator

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    Glad you talked to all the mangakas in the world and cleared that up for us.
    I have no argument, I was simply pointing out why your method won't work due to the fact that we have no idea what each characters vision is capable of and believing that they are all the same or even relatively close is lunacy.

    Problem with this is we don't know the time it took for him to travel from one spot to another, it is impossible to tell from panel to panel whether it took .01 seconds or .000001 seconds. Which would make for a massive difference in the movement speed.


    I like the fact that you are trying to come up with a speed forumla that would work for everything, but it really isn't possible and if it was someone would have been able to do it by now. Outside of mangakas telling us exact stats it is truly impossible.
     
  16. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    Really? Because the last time you measured that building using pixels, it was 105 meters.

    Link

    (this is the link to where you measured it and it is the same building I am using)

    2. Yeah, I forgot mph is smaller than m/s.

    3. I know, though I don't see what it has to do with anything.
     
  17. ez Jesus Christ

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    when I use mspaint as my pixel counter byakuya's roughly 8x14 pixels; when I select straight down i got about 834 pixels. Is there a more accurate pixel counter that you use?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2007
  18. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    Okay, I'm going to do a rough estimation of Bankai Ichigo's speed. I'm basing this on the fact that the brain registers a stimilus in about 50 millisecond.

    I'll use this scan as a prime example: Neji picture

    Now I'm using the path that Ichigo goes around Byakuya as a circle and estimating the radius of the circle to be atleast 5-10 m. Now the circumference of the circle would be 31-63 m (Note that Ichigo is making many different circles around Byakuya. I'm using the 5 as the minimum and the 10 as the maximum).

    So first of, for Ichigo to be invisible to Byakuya he would atleast have to be going at 310-630 m/s (The same method SwordDancer used).

    The second method is using the brain stimilus. The brain can register and percieve an image at the rate of .005 second. Now for Ichigo to go so fast that he creates a complete after image, he would need to be accelerating under .005 second so that would make Byakuya's brain think that there is multiple Ichigo. Now if Ichigo has traveled 31-63 m in about .005 second then he would be going at 6200-12600 m/s.


    I'm not sure if this is right as I'm not an expert in human optics. This is just a theory so feel free to tell me what's wrong about it.
     
  19. Pipboy Now With 96% More Pip

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    ACtually, last time we used pixels we said a MAX, of 100 meters NOT counting perspective. However the real problem is that training, and power increases optic conduction and perception. Thus there is no reliable numbers one can use. Oh and shin, given the way our brain works those speeds are not really apporpriate as afterimages are a product of the way we compute data not the speed at which it arrives. Hence you can create afterimages with your hands, or with a barber shop buzzer, which is alot slower than 6000 m/s.
     
  20. Limit_Tester Active Member

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    Pipboy pretty much covered this, but I'll add one thing. Find a 15 story building and look up at it. Then you will understand why this probably isn't even 50 m tall.
     
  21. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    Well, creating after-images with one's hand is different because it's much closer to one's eyes. I don't think that anything in this world can cause after-images at a distance of 31-63 m.

    And I'm aware that is the speed we compute data for a single image. Now if one sees multiple images of the same person in one single image then wouldn't one have to go faster than the brain can compute that one single image?
     
  22. Goodfellow .

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    Move your hands fast in front of you. Omg you can create afterimages:amazed

    Your speed is too much:arg!!
     
  23. ~Shin~ Spectacular Insanity

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    I can't view the next page.
     
  24. Limit_Tester Active Member

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    Revealing second page...
     
  25. Pipboy Now With 96% More Pip

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    You are confusing perceived and tracked. Afterimages are a tracking problem. Your brain and your eye aren't perfect and they sacrifice the ability to track things at high speeds for the ability to perceive things moving even faster. Thus your brain is succeptable to optical illusions that exploit this. After images being one of them. It doesn't take 6000 m/s to cause a bunch of pillars to blur as they rotate around you, because the thresh-hold is much lower for blurring than it is for perceptive absence.
     
  26. Cthulhu-versailles The Luckiest Man in Agrabah

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    That sites nothing new and still doesn't help because
    everyone who moves faster then the eye can see at 30ft isn't necessarily moving the same speed.............. perpective of viewers/power-up non-sense/author depiction and emphasis-------- + other variable of speed perception. So in the end, all you get is a supposed minimum speed that in of itself is questionable due to the individual actual scene.
    Lastly, Bleach still moves at the speed of Kubo's will. IMO.
     
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