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SPSM Naruto vs The Last SM+BM Naruto

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Ultrafragor, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM.

  1. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    I've been trying to sort this out and I've gotten stuck (the school year is starting soon and the college is beginning to harass me for financial aid and forms they say I never signed that they really just pulled out of their ass)


    The difference between these two forms of Naruto is the difference between regular Sage Mode 50% kurama and SPSM kurama. Both of these Narutos had rikudo chakra and the passive boost that allows, so I need to figure out exactly what SPSM is worth to compare it to 50% kurama using normal Sage Mode, because we have a good amount of info on SM+BM from when Naruto used it in the war.

    The reason I'm having trouble with SPSM is because, when Naruto gained that form, he gained two power ups at once. He gained rikudo chakra and SPSM at the same time. Looking at the boost to Sasuke's base stats, we can see that the chakra given to each of them by Hagoromo was a substantial boost by itself, but now I haven't been able to think of a way to isolate the boost from Hagoromo chakra from the boost of the enhanced sage mode.


    Even though the databook shows an image of cloaked Naruto in the entry for SPSM, I don't think the chakra cloak Naruto has is from SPSM itself. That doesn't really make sense. It would make more sense if that cloak is just an enhanced Kurama Mode - Bijuu Mode cloak. That explains why it transforms into an avatar of kurama.



    All things considered, the question is whether it is better to gain SPSM or to gain 50% of kurama's chakra with Sage Mode infused.

    I'm not sure if SPSM can be quantified by comparing SPSM Naruto and cloaked SPSM Naruto to RG Sasuke, but I'm getting tired thinking about it so I'm outsourcing the work.



    Also, does anyone have a copy of where The Last guidebook says Naruto was only using BM+SM to fight Toneri?
     
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  2. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    People just love to make mental gymnastic, Naruto was pressured and used all what he got against Toneri in order to pull up a win. So, either he lost RSM or simply the author failed to illustrate it the right way.
    But if he really lost it, then he has literally no chance against his war RSM self.
     
  3. Cosmos It's time to say goodbye. You'll always be in my heart.

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    There are no mental gymnastics, it's just that you don't read enough of Naruto.

    The Last Naruto was using KCSM according to the Last movie guidebook.

    RSM is used in Boruto which is identified by the crossed eyes and the fact that he could fly (forgot which episode).

    That said, War RSM Naruto destroys his KCSM version.
     
  4. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    thanks for completely ignoring the point of the thread and contributing nothing
     
  5. Cosmos It's time to say goodbye. You'll always be in my heart.

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    You're welcome.
     
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  6. Mar55 Well-Known Member

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    What, exactly, is the point?
     
  7. WorldsStrongest Dio With It

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    I...I think he wants multipliers for the Yin and Yang seals, a separate multiplier for SPSM, and how those multipliers compare to SM+KCM stacked onto a Yin/Yang amped base...

    In which case...

    I have no fucking idea where to start on that :catshrug

    That said...
    This question at least is very easy to answer

    SPSM is far better

    SPSM exceeds 100% Kurama and SM as a boost
     
  8. Sage light Well-Known Member

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  9. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    I would put base Sage of the Six Paths Mode Naruto's amp above that of just having Tailed Beast Sage Mode easily considering what his base form feats are.

    His ability to use an advanced cloak and make use of all the tailed beast abilities at once is from him having both RSM and all their chakra but the tailed beast he has the most of and the one avatar he is used to forming is Kurama so it's not really suprising he still uses a Kurama shaped one.

    If you are just thinking about pure power levels think on this I guess: Naruto and Sasuke were both embarrassing JJ Madara in base but with the cloak on Naruto has way better feats than Sasuke, so the cloak is still a pretty big jump.
     
  10. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Pretty much this.

    Trying to figure out how BSM the Last Naruto is somewhat comparable to SPSM Naruto is just one of the ways feats only lovers cause headaches and stretch the manga canon. War Arc SM Naruto being pit against EMS Sasuke is another example of these terrible gaps in logic.
     
  11. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    Base SPSM Naruto had one real feat, but that feat also has to give credit to the rikudo chakra Hagoromo had given him. So, that can't fairly be counted unless you scale it down.

    Besides cutting the Shinju, rikudo+SPSM Naruto also punched Madara, but that's not impressive when we see later that and exhausted and severely beaten rikudo Naruto still had the strength to send Sasuke flying and embed him in the side of a cliff.
     
  12. Cosmos It's time to say goodbye. You'll always be in my heart.

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    I can't believe you're comparing between these two feats ...
     
  13. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    right, slamming someone into a wall is nowhere near as impressive as slamming someone into a wall
     
  14. Mar55 Well-Known Member

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    When removing all context, reaching this conclusion is the obvious outcome.

    For example, Jūdara >>> weakened base Sasuke and cracking the Shinjū >>> punching someone into a cliffside. The feats speak for themselves and are in no real way comparable.
     
  15. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think the Shinju is that much tougher at every point on itself? Hiruzen, Killer B, and Madara all chopped the tree roots without much effort using handheld weapons.
     
  16. sabre320 Well-Known Member

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    The thing people forget is that bsm from last is already amped by rikudo chakra....its not simple bs at all....bsm users do not fly and sure as hell do not tank moon cutters....even narutos base in last was absolutely crazy as him tanking a country buster while drained and unconcious....should be very obvious rikudo chakra has become a part of his base.

    The thing op is asking i believe is the rikudo amped version of bsm is equal to rsm from when naruto was a kid....if we go by feats they are pretty damn close. Basically iyts like comparing start os super arc ss god goku with current ss3 zenkai boost goku after the tournament who has godki mixed with his own baseki. Spoiler current ss3 would match start ssg goku or exceed it.
     
  17. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    He awakened Sage of the Six Paths Mode because of the power of The Sage of the Six Paths.
    There is no need to try to separate them.

    Also his feats are:
    A) having the speed and power to intercept and reverse the course of a TBS


    Inb4 Interceptions are accidents by the author or something and don't count
    Spoiler:


    That's clearly not how Kishimoto feels

    B) punching Madara into the tree hard enough to crack it almost as bad a eighth gate Guy even though Madara blocked it.

    C) dodging JJ Madara's Limbo


    D) wrecking the tree and laying out Madara in one go.

    Given that we know his speed, reactions strength and DC, so we know a decent amount.



    It is when one is the Jubi Jinchiriki who flat out states that recovering wasn't the problem and the other is an equally exhausted Sasuke too tired to maintain his Sharingan.

    Both are good feats for Naruto but of a different scale.


    Btw The Last Naruto is also stronger than he was in the war arc given what we saw was him in a reduced state and he still laid a beating on an Otsutsuki.
     
  18. ARGUS The conqueror

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  19. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    We would still need to separate them because Naruto in The Last has that rikudo chakra, but was not using SPSM with it.

    So, it's still incorrect to give that rikudo chakra to War Arc Naruto when we know The Last Naruto had it as well.
     
  20. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    As a feats only lover, you're well aware in pure DC Toneri showed greater destructive feats than any character in the entire series which includes even Kaguya. As a feats only guy you're also well aware Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeking Orb has been stated as able to destroy entire worlds but this wasn't actually shown so it must be doubted until proven on panel.

    Yet you somehow know guys who don't cut moons in half are not only much stronger than Toneri but can also can destroy a lot more than he can.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 11:14 PM
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  21. Shazam Well-Known Member

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  22. Mar55 Well-Known Member

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    Because he cracks the main body on a scale similar to Night Guy, despite his punch never even touching Madara, let alone the tree directly.

    It's not at all comparable to people breaking tiny branches.
     
  23. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    Not really. If they both have the same base power up then it's like math:
    if Z + 8 = x + 8 then can ignore the eights and just know Z = ×.

    So the base Rikudo power up isn't the problem.

    You can't really calculate the difference accurately because of both in and out of universe issues.

    In universe, Naruto has been training for 2 years so his base strength has risen by an amount we dont know which would add to the strength of his advanced forms vs an also unknown amount.

    In real life the plot was written to the movie was written like a year before SPSM was a thing so it probably changed a bit before it made it to the manga.

    Meaning there's no way to really tell they wernt supposed to be almost the same thing anyway.
     
  24. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    That episode the fodder in the train thought he was escaping with Katsuke's research.
     
  25. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Except when it comes to Minato soloing Obito's PS and 100% Kurama :LOS
     
  26. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    Eh, the problem I feel is that, when I say SM+BM, I think people are imagining the version of Naruto that was fighting JJ Obito and saying that that form isn't stronger than SPSM.

    I can't atm, but the movie version of Naruto needs to be reviewed for feats (it probably doesn't matter since people already want to say cutting the moon in half isn't impressive)
     
  27. Hi no Ishi Well-Known Member

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    To be fair it took a couple re-reads of the OP to try to figure out what you meant by all that.

    But, again, the movie feats are why I would consider The Last Naruto stronger.
    Busting TSB and all that.

    Also splitting the moon is just a great feat. No two ways about it.
    So is blocking that jutsu.
     
  28. Ghost Of The Uchiha Well-Known Member

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  29. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

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    I went and checked the dates, The Last should have been storyboard'ed and animated long before the volume when SPSM and Sasuke's RG debuted was released.

    That would be why Sasuke's RG wasn't active in the movie and Naruto didn't use SPSM or any bijuu dama rasenshuriken (which was his favorite novel in the manga)

    Chronologically, Toneri as a villain should be on the same level as JJ Obito.
     
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  30. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    This 100%.
     
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