1. NF staff is currently looking to add new advisors. We are pulling from all areas of the site. If you're interested, feel free to create a Staff Conference Room thread to discuss the details. Click here for more general info and discussion.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Ho ho ho! It is time to celebrate!

    Christmas is coming, and we invite you to join the NFs Ho-Ho-Holidaze Event!

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Stop Scrolling!
    Attention - When discussing new chapters of an anime or manga, please use a source from the official list of approved sources. If you would like to contribute to the list, please do so in the suggestions section.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. If you write blogs about the current anime season (for linking) or like to add descriptions / impressions on certain series and like to add them to our wiki, then send us a ticket.
    Dismiss Notice

Stats and how they relate to...power level I guess?

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by Juub, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Been thinking about it for a bit especially in regards to speed. How do stats other than Ki output affect PL?

    For instance, Burter has ostensibly the same PL as most of the other Ginyu Force members but is the fastest, perhaps even faster than Ginyu. Does it mean he is much weaker physically in comparison? Can one "feel" speed?

    Conversely, SSJ 3rd Grade emanates a much more powerful aura but redirects the energy meant for speed towards pumping up their muscles to increase physical strength which makes it much slower than even the lower forms.

    Or how about defensive capabilities? SSJ 3rd Grade has much more muscle mass and a bulkier body, does that make it physically tougher as well?

    Maybe there is no answer but I'd be interested to know what others think.

    @God Movement @Sablés @Fang @Crimson Dragoon @WorldsStrongest @TheWiggian @MShadows @Black Otaku @Santi
     
    Tags:
  2. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    20,626
    Likes Received:
    7,740
    Trophy Points:
    3,543
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    It was clearly shown that despite having equal power levels there can be stat disparities, and we have the very examples you listed for that.

    Although this is not something that's been touched upon that much in DB.

    In Super we have the example of UI, in which despite two combatant potentially having around the same power level, the UI user will always come on top due to enhanced reflexes/speed.
     
  3. WorldsStrongest Padoru

    Messages:
    17,302
    Likes Received:
    2,707
    Trophy Points:
    1,818
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2016
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Canada
    Hes not faster than Ginyu...

    Ginyu was keeping pace with Goku who shitblitzed Burter and Jeice with no diff

    Even ignoring Ginyu having a PL thats what...2-4 times Burters? Its been awhile since i gave a shit about the Ginyu force. But even ignoring the monumental Ki advantage Ginyu has over Burter, hes still faster by feats.
    Not really

    Burter, Jeice and Recoome were all at the same Ki level more or less.

    All it means is Burter is more predisposed to speed than the others are. Maybe its his anatomy or race or whatever, maybe he trained in movement more than they did...Theres a million reasons.

    But hes no weaker, we know that for a fact.
    Its not any tougher no

    We see that when Gohan bodies Bulky Cell just as easily as he bodied Normal Cell

    Tho i suppose that siffy due to the gap Gohan had on either version of cell.

    I suppose its possible for Grade 3 to have a higher damage soak :catshrug

    Theres not really
     
  4. Hazard Black♠️Vegeta

    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    524
    Trophy Points:
    370
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    burter uses probably more ki for speed.
    thats his style of fighting.

    ki is what matters in the end of the day , no matter how you see it.
    just like trunks used more ki on power vs perfect cell.
    i wouldnt even call that a form tbh.
    its just ssj with ki on strength and power concentrated.
     
  5. James Bond Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,827
    Likes Received:
    241
    Trophy Points:
    518
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Sweden
    Like Hazard said, the same way Vegeta and co were able to bulk up for more physical strength but lose speed is due to Ki manipulation so any skilled Ki user could adjust their stats if they favour speed over strength or strength over speed but it's rarely ever touched on in Dragon ball as it is simpler to keep it as A power level > B power level (simpler? well used to be simpler.... :blobree).
     
  6. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Oh yeah I don't think he is faster either but Ginyu pimped him as being the fastest in the universe.

    What I do find puzzling is the following; FPSSJ is the "ultimate" state of the regular Super Saiyan but SSJ 3rd Grade is said to be stronger but much slower. Someone using SSJ 3rd Grade wouldn't have more Ki at their disposal than someone using FPSSJ but the SSJ 3rd Grade would still produce a more powerful aura. Can we, with that, conclude that when Ki used for speed is converted into Ki used for strength, others can feel it but not the other way around?

    If Burter had above average Ki control, could he convert his speed into strength, dropping his speed to the level of the other Ginyu Force members but increasing his strength to above theirs thus making him definitely the second strongest?

    I know we'll never get the answer and I'm over thinking it but fuck it, movie comes out in 2 months so may as well kill some time.
     
  7. WorldsStrongest Padoru

    Messages:
    17,302
    Likes Received:
    2,707
    Trophy Points:
    1,818
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2016
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Canada
    I dont think thats the case?

    SSJ 3rd Grade is said to be physically the strongest out of the untrained SSJ state, and Ascended SSJ, the statement regarding SSJ 3rd Grade bing physically the strongest is made before FPSSJs introduction I do believe.

    Even if thats the case, theyd have much better control over what their Ki does and what it can do. Making it pound for pound more "potent" I guess.

    Like how Piccolo told Gero during their fight,

    FPSSJ vs Grade 3 used by the same person would share a similar relationship Id argue.

    FPSSJ would output more power due to efficiency and better control if nothing else
    Why wouldnt they feel it the other way around
    Sure

    But thatd be a more taxing form and would be "power weighted" as shown with Cell

    Theres also the question of could Burters body, thats not suited for transformations like the Saiyans, handle the stress of said state?

    Stuff like that
     
  8. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
  9. Santi Warrior Prince Super Moderator

    Messages:
    52,043
    Likes Received:
    1,630
    Trophy Points:
    2,468
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    United States
    I don’t think there’s many ways to alter your physical stats via ki, and the variances are mostly due to racial/physical traits such as height, weight, and muscle composition or the odd martial technique.
     
  10. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    20,626
    Likes Received:
    7,740
    Trophy Points:
    3,543
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Like mentioned, it just consumes a minimal amount of ki and lets them utilize the regular SSJ form's full power without having to worry about unnecessary energy loss.
     
  11. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    So in that case FPSS is weaker than 2nd and 3rd grade but consumes less stamina than the former and is faster than the latter?
     
  12. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    20,626
    Likes Received:
    7,740
    Trophy Points:
    3,543
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    Pretty much.

    But was the 2nd grade ever mentioned to reduce your speed? I know the 3rd grade goes tho.
     
  13. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Nope 2nd grade was never said to reduce speed. Pretty sure it even increases it.
     
  14. The Supreme God GODSPEED Aka Thespiritdetective . ART IS AN EXPLOSION

    Messages:
    7,752
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    This is an excellent thread because there were users who thought dyspo was faster than big j.
     
  15. The Supreme God GODSPEED Aka Thespiritdetective . ART IS AN EXPLOSION

    Messages:
    7,752
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    I may be wrong but because of the reduced stamina lost, they were able to power up alot more if need be during the fight, as seen when Goku powers up against cell.
     
  16. MShadows Deathbat

    Messages:
    20,626
    Likes Received:
    7,740
    Trophy Points:
    3,543
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Reputation:
    That was just Goku going full power.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  17. The Supreme God GODSPEED Aka Thespiritdetective . ART IS AN EXPLOSION

    Messages:
    7,752
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    Ohh ok.
     
  18. Izuku Wild Weeaboo

    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2017
    It depends on how their trained to use their energy. If per se they have a power level of over 9000--

    Of around 500. They would either use the majority for speed or strength. Meaning somebody with the same power level might still beat them if they were either stronger or faster + more skilled.

    Stats are only worthwhile when they have the skill to be used.
     
  19. Raizel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Reputation:
    Kaioken suggests PL increase also increases all physical stats but there's also scenes like 40 tons where contradicts with it.
     
  20. Fang Titan

    Messages:
    165,398
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    4,968
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Reputation:
    I was at least personally under the impression that the Full Power/Ascended Super Saiyan state that Goku and Gohan mastered while having less drawback or waste of Ki or stamina vs the Super Saiyan Graded forms that Vegeta and Future Trunks used, also increased the amount of power and speed by making the transformation less traumatic on their bodies the way Goku explained it.
     
  21. TheWiggian #AdmiralsIncorporated

    Messages:
    8,140
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    1,418
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany
    As i view it in my opinion only the mastered super saiyan transformation and the super saiyan grade 5 transformation are well rounded about "ALL" stats it provides with low or basically no drawbacks.
    Mastered Super Saiyan is self-explanatory even by the name definition while Super Saiyan Grade 5/SSJ2 was designed that way straight from the moment Gohan transformed and even explained a bit further in the manga.

    Now what do we know about the super saiyan transformation? The first grade if you want to call it that with no confusions.

    It provides a x50 boost to the users battle power. But what exactly is boosted by which amount? We all can certainly say it boosts everything, all stats and ki included.
    We also know that it takes a toll on the users stamina if he remains too long in that transformation, reference Vegeta vs Android 18.


    So what does the other grades add?

    2nd grade:
    - more muscle mass resulting in a balanced speed and strenght addition
    - greater ki, increase of battlepower
    - increase in durability and endurance
    - better stamina control


    3rd grade:
    - even more muscle mass resulting in immense strenght but high loss of speed
    - huge ki and battle power
    - increased durability and endurance
    - horrible stamina burn


    4th grade:
    - balanced out strenght and speed on a higher level than grade 2, less strenght than grade 3
    - equal ki to grade 3 and greater battlepower than grade 2 and 3
    - higher durability and endurance than both grade 2 and 3
    - far greater stamina control than grade 3 and greater than grade 2 with basically no drawbacks


    5th grade:
    - balanced out strenght and speed on a whole other level than the mastered super saiyan transformation but strenght equal to the grade 3 transformation
    - ki and battlepower on a whole new level
    - durability and endurance on whole new level
    - stamina on a whole new level with basically no drawbacks



    For me it would look like this, regarding the super saiyan transformation stats. You can disregard the x50 boost considering the stats, it will still boost the battlepower that way.

     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • List
  22. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
  23. TheWiggian #AdmiralsIncorporated

    Messages:
    8,140
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    1,418
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany
    Fifth grade is actually ssj2. This was it's previous concept of ssj2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  24. Hazard Black♠️Vegeta

    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    524
    Trophy Points:
    370
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    the problem is the number.
    toriyama diesnt have any idea how strong his own characters are.
     
  25. Gifted Banned

    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    607
    Trophy Points:
    643
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    Some transformations can be seen as unbalanced and boost certain stats only like KK and ASSJ and USSJ .hence MSSJ's superiority over the other grades since it has superior strength and durability than USSJ while retaining the phsyique of SSJ
     
  26. Gifted Banned

    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    607
    Trophy Points:
    643
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    Stronger for sure because ki consumption wouldn't be enough to make it a superior grade over say ASSJ which increases strength by alot and dosen't seem to lower speed
     
  27. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    But then the 50x multiplier doesn't hold up anymore. :uguu
     
  28. Gifted Banned

    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    607
    Trophy Points:
    643
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    hUH?
     
  29. Hazard Black♠️Vegeta

    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    524
    Trophy Points:
    370
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Reputation:
    i think the 50x applies to overall ki after that the user can decide on what to use it , power , speed , strength or hax.
     
  30. Juub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,094
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Reputation:
    Think about it. If the initial boost is 50x, SSJ 2nd Grade is stronger, so it must be higher than 50x. Then you say FPSSJ is even stronger than SSJ 2nd grade, so the multiplier must be greater still.
     
Loading...