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‘Statues are not history’: considering the removal of Sir John A. Macdonald

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by Killmonger, Aug 12, 2018.

  1. Killmonger NPC13211

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    I didn't know Canada had become that bad :giogio
     
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  2. wibisana still newbie

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    I see no problem tearing down statue of murderer
     
  3. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    Look at america destorying history
     
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  4. Rukia I’m the fucking game!

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    Stupid. Just leave the statues up.
     
  5. Lord Nighty Atomic Sables!

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    Is anyone really worthy of having a statue of themselves made though?

    I mean everyone has their skeletons in their closets, and if we look back on everyone's past then we might as well tear down all statues of historic figures now and save the future debate.
     
  6. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    Should germany leave the staues of hitler up?
     
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  7. Rukia I’m the fucking game!

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    I was recently in Berlin. And I thought it was a major mistake to tear down the Berlin Wall to the extent that Germany did.

    A live wall would have been a spectacular historic tourist attraction. It would blow a half assed checkpoint Charlie out of the water!

    Statues of Hitler? He may be a special case. Keeping a couple of especially famous ones up may be the right call. :hm
     
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  8. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    How do you feel about US soldiers tearing down Sadam statues?
     
  9. Rukia I’m the fucking game!

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    I don’t know anything about it.

    But it sounds like US soldiers are playing the roles of conquerors in that scenario. That’s different than Iraqi citizens willingly tearing down the statues.
     
  10. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    Should russians tear down statues of lenin or Stalin?
     
  11. Rukia I’m the fucking game!

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    If they are still up? No. Absolutely not.

    Back in the day that would have been an emotional decision and the citizens likely would have elected to tear them down.
     
  12. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    That we're comparing characters like Macdonald - or even many southern confederates - to Hitler sort of shows how confused this all is. It's the same argument everywhere, but there's a point where the standards of olden days will always lack the standards of today, and we're going to lose our sense of national identity by picking apart the troubling foundations of...well, everything. in Macdonald's time, the Indian Reservation School System was probably the charitable thing to do with the natives. Educate the children and remove them from their savage culture so they might join our enlightened western society.

    Refocus off white historical figures, if you're neutral towards them. Find a historical figure from a community you're invested. We're not talking about monuments to malcolm x even though the same arguments could be made on a personal level and also an institutional level (the nation of islam menaces to this day). Actually, some people are talking about taking down malcolm x statues, and have been for a long time. They're ridiculous and so is this.

    ...so ridiculous that it's not even that important one way or the other, assuming it's not the first step towards a dismantling and discarding of history and identity.
     
  13. Rukia I’m the fucking game!

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    A statue is not an idol.
     
  14. afgpride Retired Staff

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    What's with us Canadians piggy-backing American trends and importing their local problems over the border? First Black Lives Matter somehow surfaces in Toronto, complaining about imaginary police brutality and hijacking LGBT parades, now people are tearing down statues of our first Prime Minister because he... He... He forced indigenous children into our schools? What, did the decades of straight up warfare with natives to make our country's existence possible not do it? We have to nitpick an unsavoury policy that's marginal to the point of redundancy in the grand scheme of history? :hm

    Hopefully this sort of virtue-mimicry by sheltered crybabies doesn't gain momentum in Canada, though it looks like it's already started.
     
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  15. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    If it is not the same status as an idol
    Why make a big deal out of it?
    Why protest and say its a powerful symbol? That its tantamount to destorying history?
    Statues are made to be worshiped put in public places were it can be admired and give a sense of pride.
    If thats not what an idol is then a statue of a greek god is not an idol either
     
  16. Onomatopoeia In a word: Brilliant

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    Move the statues to a museum. Everyone wins, non?
     
  17. Lord Nighty Atomic Sables!

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    Best suggestion I've heard thus far.
     
  18. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    @afgpride Here's my take on the issue:

    Do I have some emotional attachment to John A. MacDonald and his image? No.

    Does the presence or lack of a statue of him somewhere else in the country influence or affect how I see my country? No.

    Does it affect me personally or have something to do with me? No.

    So, whether the presence or removal of the statue affects others in some way is their own affair, though I do understand if some people want someone's image removed from a public space due to their historical actions that are considered distasteful in the modern day.
     
  19. tbf I think it was the Iraqi's that brought it down
     
  20. afgpride Retired Staff

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    I'm a Canadian citizen. This is a definitively political decision in a definitively political controversy, which runs hostile to the establishment and history of Canada. I don't need to view this in the scope of aesthetics and architecture in potential strolls down City Hall to find it unsavoury. It's not only self-flagellating, it's a misappropriation of American virtue culture, and it sends ripples throughout the country with its precedent.

    I think the people of Victoria have every right in the world to remove a statue of a person they don't like, even if that person is the first Prime Minister. So I'm not implying otherwise. My take is they're misguided, sheltered, hypocritical and vapid, and I'd like for it not to gain traction throughout the country.
     
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  21. Alwaysmind 总是心神

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    John A. has been a controversial figure even before 1867. Historians loath the fact that what people remember from John A in highschool is that he was a drunkard even when sitting in parliament.

    Residential school is much more then forced schools and it left a big mark. Reconciliation necessitates that we acknowledge the wrongs and the grudges.
     
  22. Unlosing Ranger Rebirth and destruction, again and again

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    Nothing like book burning.
     
  23. Mider T Oh Christmas T!

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    This. One day there will be no statues.
     
  24. afgpride Retired Staff

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    The problem isn't that SJAM is a good guy. The problem is virtually none of them are. The very nature of being a politician is that you'll have a chunk of the country hating you, usually for perfectly valid reasons. Fast forward 300 years later and unpersoning a founding figure for anything short of treason or crimes against humanity is not only vapid, it implies a disavowing on virtually the entire legacy of Canadian government, which ultimately sprout out of the blood of First Nations.
     
  25. Mider T Oh Christmas T!

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    There is nothing inherently wrong with being a wino though, it doesn't support his statue being torn down.
     
  26. Alwaysmind 总是心神

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    There’s a whole historiographical debate about this every issue. Which will, unfortunately for some here, won’t be solved on narutoforums.

    But as I have alluded to, the interesting part of this is that while John A is a founding figure, we don’t seem to act like care to remember that in the first place.
    Or so I’ve heard and read, specially Jack A Granastein.
     
  27. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    While removing his statue can be quantified as that, Ancient Greek and Roman politics had a far more thorough unpersoning - labelled as damnatio memoriae later on by historians, it involves obliterating any trace of an individual from history and society. Their image in art, their name on paper, all things associated with a person were altered or erased, consigning them to oblivion in a society where social appearance was considered of utmost importance. Even Roman Emperors were not immune to this.

    The modern day equivalent would be every image, every piece of identity, even the online presence of someone being summarily targeted, obliterated and/or buried in the hopes that the person's existence is lost to time. In the case of entertainment, the equivalents are Atari "E.T" copies being buried in the middle of a desert, George Lucas wanting to destroy every copy of the Star Wars Christmas Special, or irate fanboys wanting The Last Jedi removed from canon because reasons.

    You can't "unperson" a founding figure, but you can recognize the flaws in their character and talk about them (contrast to the USA who , even if removing images of him from public goes a little far.
     
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  28. Alwaysmind 总是心神

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    I just mentioned the cliché that it’s what people remember most about him. Is so common that it’s even in our satire:

    yoga
     
  29. zeroantizero Well-Known Member

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    Actually, they are. And I don't care if it's Macdonald or Lenin; I'll defend them.
     
  30. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if this isnt happening because there’s some renewed pressure on First Nation relations in Canada, so instead of actually addressing that present problem everybody’s just redirecting to the past and going for a symbolic win.

    That’s the problem America has gotten into. Instead of addressing a problem, or due to difficulties addressing the problem, we’ll redirect towards something easier and symbolic and double down there.
     
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