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Super Smash Bros.:Melee; a real fighting game?

Discussion in 'NF Archives' started by RockLee, Oct 22, 2006.

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  1. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    I've played several fighters, most of them for fun, and a couple I've gotten into a bit more so that I can play well and do well planned out combos and such.

    One of those, as of late, has been SSB:M.

    I was planning late into the night with a friend of mine, and I got to thinking; "This is a great fighting game, why is it not taken seriously?"

    There are a multitude of fighting games out there, from the venerable 2D fighters (SF3, GGXX, KoF, MvC2) to the new age 3D fighters (VF4, SC3, Tekken 5, DoA 4) and the "just for fun" segment (DBZ, D.O.N., Naruto, Bleach, Pocket Fighters).

    Most would sort SSB:M into the third segment. I ask "why?"

    It seems to me that SSB:M is a competitive fighting game worhty of serious consideration. It seems to me that because it lacks certain features, or it has others that are not standard in fighting games, it is not taken seriously.

    I mean, it has a very simplistic control set up, at a glance. Standard attack, strong attack, special attack, block, throw, jump. From those, other arise due to directional input or timing; standard attacks (h/m/l, dash, and forward [<- + A]), strong attack (<- + A; C-Stick), special attack (4 varieties, and each has a different purpose), block (white block, dodging, weak shielding, shield throwing, air dodging, area blocking, teching), throw (same as special attack; dash throwing), jump (lends itself to a strong inherent air game due to the level of control [epecially when mixed with dodging, standard/strong/special attacks, but potent all on it's own], wall jumping).

    My apologies for that block of text.

    However, from these basic elements a great fighting system emerges, and not one that is lacking or broken. Heck, we even have our own "glitch;" wavedashing.

    Before I go into that, if at all (I don't want to bore you), I want to show that SSB:M does share some traits with other prominent fighting games while breaking away from the traditional format as well.

    Most other fighting games have a simplistic set up, as well. Virtua Fighter, if I recall correctly, has a 3 button set up. Guilty Gear has 5. Street Fighter, 6. Soul Caliber, 4. SSB:M has 4 (standard, special, jump, dodge) with various redundant systems built in. The average seems to be around 4, a little more. So, we aren't much more complicated or simpler in that sense.

    What about combos and specials? Most other games, especially 2D, have those. SF3's Super Arts and Guilty Gear Overdrive's come to mind, when it comes to specials. For combos, look at any decent fighting game with a move list for a huge variety of move to string together in a multitude of ways. I mean, Virtua Fighter has unprecedented depth. SC3 features movelists of around 60+ per character.

    But, don't combos also appear in games that lack a huge move list? Look at SF3, with awesome juggles and set ups, and it lacks a proper movelist, but has a variety of attacks that allow players to set up their own optimal combos. Well, most 2D fighters do that, regardless.

    As for specials, complexity in execution do not a special make. Most of SF3's Super Arts are indeed offensive in nature, but are relatively easy to pull off (whether they connect or are blocked is another story). Quarter Circle + Quarter Circle + Punch/Kick is relatively easy to pull off.

    Specials do exist in SSB:M, but they serve different purposed, due to the nature of the game (ringouts instead of knockouts). Specials are supposed to be just that; attacks with a special nature. For example, Fox (my character) has 4 specials: Laser Gun, Fire Fox, Fox Phantasm, Fox Reflector. Laser Gun is to easily build up my opponent's damage at a distance, Fire Fox is recovery or to break a juggle, Phantasm
    is a recovery and a surprise technique, and Reflector is to null ranged threats and as a pushing technique. Each special does something a normal punch or kick cannot. Is that not what a special technique consist of?

    Besides, they are indeed easy to execute, but they, as a balance, are not generally gamebreaking or powerful (damage dealing) techniques.

    I mean, SSB:M has things that I hear about in other games, such as combos, specials, blocking, parrying (white guarding), dodging, throws, juggling... why is it not treated as a serious fighting game?

    It is the options? The items? The non-standard, weird stages available? Perhaps that it isn't lifebar based, rather that it relies wholy on ringouts? The characters, all of which are (currently) Nintendo-only mascots?

    Why are the first three a problem? Options are so you can play any way you wish, for fun, but for competative play are there standards (ex. 3 lives, no time limit, Final Destination), but when you are with your friends, Hyrule Temple, 5 items set on high, 6 lives and a 5 minute limit may be the way to go. Also, since when are tons of weird stages a problem when there's a standard one available at all times?

    As for the percentage based gameplay, that's what differs it from other fighting games. It's the first one (that I know of) that does that. It makes the gameplay much different, even when it shares many things with other fighting games. And, heck, if you don't like that, there's the Stamina mode, which gives you the equivalent of a lifebar.

    Do we lack the quarter and half circle commands? Is that it? So, quarter-circle + A would make Fox's Laser Gun that much the better?

    It is the characters? Are they not serious business? Is Sol Badguy doing a Grand Viper much more serious than Captain Falcon doing a Rising Flacon?

    A miscellanous comment:

    More similarities!

    KoF dodges as well.
    SF3 has EX attacks, which are SSB:M's charged strong attacks.
    SSB:M's strong attacks, at certain points, are the equivalent of GG's Dust Strike.
    SSB:M has wavedashing, SF3 has karathrows and cancels.

    I also just realized that we lack a special bar, but that's because of what I mentioned earlier; our specials are not 1 move massive damage techniques.

    For those that offer their expert opinion (there's several of you among us), thanks. :leepose

    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot. Well, not really, but I am a very casual fighter fan, but have informed friends, and most of this is based on my impressions. You probably know of other examples and stuff; please, contribute. I probably got some things wrong, and you probably noticed my prediliction towards SF3 and GG in this post (although I do love SC2 [Talim!]).

    Hope you tolerate the ignorance, but... I dunno, the lack of respect that SSB:M recieves confounds me. I, again, was playing last night, and we were teching, dodging with excellent reflexes, chain throwing, comboing, juggling, edge chasing/harrassing, doing a great arial game, and it all required a high level of skill (well, at least I think so).

    No, we don't wavedash, but that's more out of choice than lack of ability. We can do it (a rudimentrary form), but we feel it cheapens the game and makes it uninviting for the uninitiated.

    No, I do not think I am all that at SSB:M, but I do think I am pretty good. :D

    Thanks for reading! :gailee
     
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  2. AFreak2005 Banned

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    Because the game was meant for fun and not competition, but has been used for competition as of late. It's like asking why Mario Kart is considered a real racing game.
     
  3. Aman <font color='#0000A0'>Really?</font>

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    Very nice post, even read all of it. Reps.
     
  4. Mrs. Hatake ♥ KaKaShI iS tHe SmEx

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    WOW I read the whole post*
    Yes I agree this game is soo much fun. I only play compe. when playing my friends, but i play for fun.
     
  5. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    Absolutely agree, but the comparison is wrong. In Mario Kart, you cannot turn off items. In SSB:M, you can, and that takes luck and randomness away from the equation.
     
  6. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    SSBM owns you and your mother.

    Now, I take SSBM as a serious game, but one that is also great for just having fun with friends, more so than SF or GG, or even the extremely shitty SC3. The latter is just because I'm more of a SC2 fanboy and they nerfed Maxi too much.

    As for the competitive play; it's done a lot with SSBM, especially in the States. Regular tournaments are held with cash prices and shit.
     
  7. Chemistry A ∞

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    It is played seriously. Many many tournaments are held here in socal, always getting very large attendances with lots of fun and lots of money involved(for the winners at least).

    In SSBM, there are fun players and competition players. A large reason why I play(and still playing it), because everyone frickin' plays it...
     
  8. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    I know, but a certain, undisclosed member of these boards who is very knowledgeable about video games, and fighting games (whom I also respect) has mentioned to me, in person, that SSB:M is not a real fighting game, that it is a "party game."

    My inability to put up a cohesive argument in his face (because most of the time we are together we are playing something) led me to type that up.

    Thanks for actually reading that, guys. O_o
     
  9. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    SSBM is both a party-game AND serious fighting game. You gotta look underneath the underneath, yo.
     
  10. Chemistry A ∞

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    If it's a party game, then it's a really really in-depth badass party game.

    This game is like no other... And sure you can say it's not a TRUE fighting game, but it's one hell of an fighting in-depth game. Combos, edgeguarding, blocking/dodging, and most of all, mindgames.

    Plus, many people go to tournaments(MLG anyone?) and put money on the line for this "party game." If that's not serious enough, I dunno what is...

    I'm also sure no other fighting game has their own Global Compendium...
     
  11. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    i think they don't take it as a serious fighter because the characters are mainly directed towards kids, Mario, Pikachu, Starfox, so on..........so if the characters are directed towards kids, and the button setup is directed towards kids, then people will see it as just fun with no depth..........just my opinion
     
  12. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    You can put money on anything, you can create strategies with nearly everything. But yes, it is a party game. You can pick it up and play it with out having to learn all too many things about it. Naturally, to get good you have to practice a lot and learn, but that's the case with most things.

    SSBM is in-depth, it is a very good fighting game, it's challenging and most of all, it's just plain fun to play with friends.
     
  13. Donkey Show Bukkage

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    The game isn't geared towards kids, it's geared towards Nintendo fans which happen to be more than just kids.
     
  14. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    well ok put it that way, it still means that not many people will take it more than a button-mashing game directed towards the nintendo fan-base(kids)
     
  15. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    Button-mashing in SSBM? I've found it to be the less succesful game to use the High-Roller strategy on.
     
  16. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    me too, but some people i know do and win alot, and they say they don't wanna learn how to do the moves by timing and hitting people at the right time when they can just button mash and win
     
  17. QBnoYouko The Zombie

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    SSB:M is rated T, so.. no kids. o.o

    The only thing I see that makes SSB:M not the typical standard for most fighting games is probably the ability of four-players. Fighting games usually consist of just two players but we've got two extra players for a four-player brawl, making it a fun competition. But of course, SSB:M has a lot of depthness to it, enough to make it quite serious. Not only do we have a set of moves like special attacks and melee attacks, but we get taunts like most games have too! :D

    I find it as just Nintendo's unique way of creating their own fighting simulation and I say it works perfectly fine.
     
  18. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    Why, precisely, is it not a "true" fighting game? What defines them?

    It is that it is a 2.5D fighter causes it to break the rules? The % setup?
    Soul Caliber, SF3 and GGXX say "hi."

    I dare you to button-smash in SSB:M and have an iota of success.

    Either the people they play against aren't very good, or, you have a different definition of button mashing.

    Yeah, but you can always play 2 player. >_>

    Nothing against you, at all. I mean it. D: I just forgot to point that out in my mammoth post. The 2 player thing.

    *should be working on homework*
     
  19. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    by button mashing i don't mean just pressing alot of buttons , that doesn't work in SSBM, i mean they'll push one button multiple times constantly then they'll switch to another and do the same once people starting learning how to get around the first one
     
  20. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    Hey wait, since when is SSBM rated T? Here in Holland it's rated for ages three and up.
     
  21. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    Rated T for Teen in the U.S. for mild animated violence.

    Oh, you mean pick one attack and stick with that?

    Uhhh... with proper timing you can get around that with a proper dash grab, or forward dodge + grab. Hell, with shield grabbing you can stop spamming.

    Is there one solitary move in the whole game that you can just spam?

    No, Fox's Laser Gun has it's limitations as well.
     
  22. Aruarian Well-Known Member

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    Well, juggling is always fun. =D
     
  23. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    i got this post from another site, it's the best way i can put why people don't take this game as a serious fighter




    The controls for Melee are simple: almost every single move in the game can be accessed via one button press and a joystick direction. This control scheme contrasts with that of standard fighting games which often require the player to memorize complicated and sometimes lengthy sequences of button inputs to perform effective attack combos
     
  24. RockLee is no brethren unto Kaminae

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    Which I countered effectively in my posts.

    SF3, which is a deep fighting game, has no such length strings, although it has deeper directional input.

    But simple does not exclude deep.
     
  25. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    i dunno, maybe people need a storyline to go.................scratch that lol
     
  26. Nihonjin Skeptic

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    SSBM Makes up for that with retarded accuracy needed to perform complicated combo's.

    1) You need to aim well (For example hit with the tip of your sword, instead of the hilt to get the effect needed to perform the combo)

    2) Moment of impact (The effect might change when the attack hits at a latter time (first it hits you downwards, but after 30 frames that changes to forward, so to get what ever you want you need to time it perfectly)

    3) Insight on your opponents directional influence (If your opponent presses a direction, his character will fly more to that direction (not totally, but it gets influenced)).

    So an example of how to perform a combo is:

    Aim with the tip of your sword and hit after 30 frames of the animation and predict your opponents DI (otherwise you won't know where to aim next) and hit again with what ever move as a follow up without screwing your aim and getting a different effect.
    Instead of your "| \ -" basic combo's ^_^ (imo this is harder than remembering and pressing a sequence of buttons at the right time, and thats only the combo part, its hardly the most important part of the game itself)
     
  27. Donkey Show Bukkage

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    And with the stick controls, it's a lot deeper than just holding a direction and smashing the A button. You have neutral attacks, tilt attacks, and the smash attacks which add to that depth, especially in the air game.
     
  28. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    i dunno why, i just don't see SSB being taken seriously anytime soon, maybe it's because the gameplay and action is too cartoony
     
  29. Nihonjin Skeptic

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    Website to an entire smash community >_>



    And a finals from a big european tournament (the American smash scene is like 10000x times bigger...)

    Nie ma nic w co moglbys wierzyc

    Is that serious enough for you?
     
  30. competitionbros So True Naruto, So True

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    holding large tournaments doesn't mean they take the game THAT seriously, it just means they like the game and thought they were good enough to participate, and i'm sure even lesser known games have forums dedicated to em
     
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