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Surely Ichigo can't beat Grimmjow.

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Metric, Jun 9, 2007.

  1. Metric

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    Pretty much what the title says – surely Ichigo can’t beat Grimmjow now?

    OK they’ve had 2 fights previously:
    1. 1st fight – Ichigo doesn't have access to Vizard powers, and he is hampered by his hollow, so Grimmjow owns him horribly. I don't think this is useful for predicting the outcome of this coming fight, for the 2 factors i mentioned.
    2. 2nd fight - Ichigo has Vizard powers, Grimmjow has 1 arm. This is set in the human world, and Ichigo in his Vizard form has the upper hand over Grimmjow. However, the mask breaks, which in turn hands Grimmjow the advantage, and Shinji has to come and save Ichigo.

    OK the 2nd fight is very useful for predicting the outcome of the latest fight.
    Considering Ichigo:
    • First off, Ichigo has not gotten any stronger. He pretty much went straight into Hueco Mundo after the 2nd Grimmjow fight. Therefore the same limitations and weaknesses still apply - his mask breaks after 11 seconds.
    • In fact, it is possible that he may be weaker, since Orihime says: "Such a large spiritual pressure surrounding and getting in the way of Kurosaki-kun's wounds...i can't reject it". This suggests to me that she might not be able to completely heal Ichigo back to his peak condition. Therefore if anything, its possible that Ichigo will be weaker than his previous fight with Grimmjow.
    • I'm just speculating, but the bottom line is that current Ichigo is as strong as, if not weaker than the Ichigo that fought Grimmjow previously.

    Considering Grimmjow:

    • Whereas Ichigo has not gotten stronger since the 2nd fight, Grimmjow has gotten stronger. Grimmjow now has both arms, which is a huge advantage - remember that he was dropped from the Espada for only having 1 arm. Now he has both arms, he shoots back up to Espada 6.
    • Also, this fight is taking place in Hueco Mundo, which means that the Arrancars are stronger.
    • Therefore Grimmjow gets a double ''power up'' as it were, since the previous fight.

    So then to conclude - Ichigo was not able to kill Grimmjow in their 2nd fight, where the conditions favoured him. Now that the conditions are against him, i think there is no hope he can logically win - bear in mind Grimmjow still has to release!!

    I read loads of people saying ''Ah but in Vizard form Ichigo was clearly pwning Grimmjow, so theres no reason he won't do it again''. Well the fact is, Ichigo can only last 11 seconds in that form, and as was shown clearly, he can't kill Grimmjow in those 11 seconds (he was already rushing as well). So there's no reason to think he can do it now, especially when Grimmjow is more prepared.

    Obviously Ichigo could still get a huge power-up from either having an inner world talk with Zangetsu, or perhaps Shirosaki coming out, and this could probably justify him beating Grimmjow.

    However, i expect the fight to get interrupted, by either a SS rescue party, or by Aizen or another Espada.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
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  2. Zaru Retired Staff

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    If it's for powerup, maybe the same happens to him that happened to chad.

    He finds a way to understand his hollow powers more to get a power update in hueco mundo.
     
  3. Byakuya

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    I think it's safe to assume that Kanonji will help him out this time.
     
  4. Yak

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    ^ what Zaru said is definitely a good point. Either its that or some other form of powerup or the fight will be interrupted somehow since I can't imagine a complete beatdown for either Grimm or Ichigo AGAIN.
     
  5. Zaru Retired Staff

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    Well the thing is, Ichigo hasn't gotten stronger since the last fight. Grimmjow HAS.

    And after the 11 seconds, what will happen? Ichigo's gonna be pwned again.

    So, SOMETHING MUST RUN DIFFEREN THIS TIME.

    Powerup, other way of fighting, who knows?
     
  6. Low-fi Boy

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    Just like the thread-starter said, Ichigo's already lost to Grimmjow two times. The same way he lost to both Byakuya and Renji once before beating them later. After being antagonised by Grimmjow for the best part of 70 chapters, I'd say it's about time Ichigo beat him this time. Here's hoping for an extended Vaizard mask time
     
  7. AbnormallyNormal

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    there is a reason isshin isnt worried he knows ichigo has almost unlimited power
     
  8. Furious George

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    Ichigo is going to beat Grimmjow if their fight is not interrupted.

    That's not to say that your arguments are not logical. But:

    - Ichigo seems to have gotten into his 'gotta fight gotta fight' Kenpachi-type mood. He does not lose fights when he has that sort of conviction.

    - This is a shounen. Shounen are, if nothing else, known for the main characters winning fights against all logic. The fact that it seems he hasn't gotten any stronger would only strengthen the idea that his 'determination' will spring up at the last minute to surprise everyone.
     
  9. Gamble

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    Yes.

    I still don't understand why people try to use any type of logic to determine the outcome of fights. No matter how much "intellectual information" you have on a story such as this, it's always going to go in favor of plot progression, and that usually means the main character winning.
     
  10. Squall Leonhart

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    It should be something like this: They fight > Ichigo loses.. but Grimmjow doesn't kill him, insteed he tells Ichigo he doesn't worth to be killed because he's too weak, and that the fight didn't satisfy him, and because of that he'll train Ichigo untill Ulquiorra comes back, and by then Ichigo will get stronger and they'll both take him down.
     
  11. Slice

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    ^ 2-3 hours for having a good fight AND training Ichi to be strong enough to face Ulqui? i highly doubt that.
    I think that Ichi will pull something off that makes hin stronger than Grimmjaw until the latter tries to release - then someone comes and interupts them (as always when GJ tries to release).
     
  12. Squall Leonhart

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    Well, he did learn Bankai in only 3 days.. he might aswell get stronger with Grimmjow's help in 3 hours, it isn't logical, but hell.. nothing in Bleach is logical, so getting strong enough to beat Ulquiorra in 3 hours isn't impossible.
     
  13. blacklusterseph004

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    I don't think Ichigo can beat Grimjow with what he has shown so far. His visored form isn't long enough and bankai doesn't seem to bother any of the espada.

    What I'm hoping for is a new technique. Not a powerup, and new attack that can grant a tactical edge if used properly. Kubo I think has neglected some creative time for that aspect of Ichigo's fights. Renji already knows some techniques that expand the usefulness of his bankai. It's time Ichigo go the same. I think some new close range tech or movement tech would be cool. Even clones or something. Anything to give strength besides another powerup.
     
  14. Techno_Jutsu

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    It's possible we'll still get a flashback to when Ichigo was "dead" and it turns out he had a another fight with Shirosaki. I only say that because when he first got his Vaizard powers, Shirosaki said something like, "Just don't fall off the horse, I'll kill you the first chance I get," which looks a lot like foreshadowing, maybe to this very scene.

    Like others have said, he also might get a power-up mid-fight, which we're well aware of the fact that Kubo loves doing that.

    But unless one of those two events happens, he definitely doesn't have the strength to beat Grimmjow.
     
  15. Metric

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    Well plot progression could be achieved if the fight is interrupted, either by Aizen's side or SS side.

    And Ichigo has had 4 major fights recently that i can think of, of which he has lost 3 times (Grimmjow x 2 and Ulquiorra), and won only once (Dordonii). So i wouldn't say that he's going to win just because he's the main character.
     
  16. Lomailija

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    If Ichigo loses he will be killed by Grimmjow unless Inoue/the return of Ulqiorra stops Grimmjow from killing him. After returning to Karakura (assuming that the rescue team makes it way back) Ichigo would be depressed for some amount of time because he can't even defeat espada number 6. Now if Grimmjow loses then Ichigo has 3 options. Kill Grimmjow, spare Grimmjows life and make Grimmjow the Hueco Mundos Ikkaku (Ichigo = Zaraki) thus bringing Grimmjow back to Karakura or Ichigo spares Grimmjow and Grimmjow is left in Hueco Mundo kowing that he just attecked a higher espada (Aizen will be angry), healed the enemy and that he lost. Of course theyre is the plot thingy (Noitora) that could end the fight in the middle somehow.
     
  17. CM Pope

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    People reckon Ichigo can whale on Grimmjow for 11 seconds with the Vaizard mask with Grimmjow Unreleased. But can he? He did it to Grimmjow with only one arm and as is made clear - it was clearly a big handicap.

    Fact is that going all out Ichigo couldn't kill Grimmjow in 11 seconds even Unreleased, with 1 arm and with the element of surprise on his side.

    What exactly is different from then? Well...Grimmjow now has two arms again which levels the playing field some. I honestly don't see Ichigo winning as he is right now - even if he hadn't just been trashed and then healed.

    If Ichigo has an inner talk with Zangetsu and learns some now technique winning by blind luck there'll be a lot of pissed Grimmjow fans. If it's a new skill from Shirosaki it's the same case and if Shirosaki himself comes out it's just lame since Ichigo once again fails to win by himself.

    I see someone interrupting.
     
  18. Acadi

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    The supreme irony is that Ichigo was more powerful at the Sogyoku then he is now.

    Fighting Byakuya, Shirosaki took over for exctly 2 minutes and 20 seconds. In that time, Shirosaki did not even kill Byakuya, but weakened Byakuya, and healed Ichigo a bit, enough for Ichigo to finish Byakya off in a final clash.

    Now he only has 11 seconds to weaken his opponent before having to finish them off by shinigami self. That's 13x weaker.

    Unless Shirosaki can still come out and save Ichigo, Ichigo just simply lacks power.
     
  19. CM Pope

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    I agree with the bit about Shirosaki healing Ichigo somewhat, but he didn't kill Byakuya only because Ichigo stepped in and took control again.

    13x weaker? Tell that to Dordonni whom Ichigo was able to own effortlessly within 2 seconds of going Vaizard. Ichigo is strong, but the time limitations on his Vaizard form let him down.
     
  20. Talone

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    That's a bizzare sense of logic....

    Shirosaki doesn't "take over" when Ichigo puts on the mask. It signifies that Ichigo has his hollow powers under control and his Hollow side under submission. Ichigo may not be able to be masked for a longer time, but that does NOT in any way make him 13x weaker. With a mask on, Ichigo is under control. During the Byakuya fight, Shirosaki took over, and Ichigo was NOT in control.

    He can't hold a mask as long, but he IS in control of Shirosaki's power this time around.

    It's clear to me that Shirosaki knows how to use Ichigo's abilities with greater effectiveness than Ichigo himself. During the battle with Byakuya, Shirosaki could've probably easily destroyed Byakuya, but was enjoying the battle too much to let it end too soon. He was essentially tormenting his opponent, showing off his ridiculous speed and power.

    Basically, it's that Ichigo needs to learn how to use his powers with greater effectiveness, like Shirosaki does. He has a large enough Reiatsu reserve (as it was shown to surpass that of Ulquiorra, albeit briefly), and his Reirokyu is noted to be strong as well. But strong enough? We'll see....but it probably is.
     
  21. Acadi

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    You know what, I just re-watched Shirosaki's fight against Koga's doll. 1 minute and 50 seconds. Koga was explaining that Ichigo simply lacked the heart to control Shirosaki's power.Ulquiorra mentioned this imbalance too... but I have no understanding of it XD

    If that's the case though, a power-up for endurance way beyond 11 seconds is probably exactly what's going to happen after another inner encounter.

    Edit: Well you have a point there. Ichigo doesn't love fighting and hurries his powers in that 11 seconds he has. By that logic, 13x isn't exactly true since Shirosaki always stalls and goofs off. I can't exactly measure Shirosaki's fooling around like I can measure numbers though, but it still makes Ichigo's power reserve much weaker then it was.For now at least. Before his heart strengthens =P
     
  22. kombak

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    Did u guys all forget that ulquiorra himself said that at his best (shiro's best or ichigo we dont know though) , he was stronger than him?
     
  23. Ennoea

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    Do you really see Ichigo getting owned again? Kubo might be an idiot (ulqui getting beaten so easily, wtf?) but he's not that dumb to have the main character fail miserably. He'll have a hard time at which Zangetsu will prob appear.

    The way I see it Ichigo wins, takes Hime with him, Ulqui gets released and follows.
     
  24. Last of the Arrancar

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    This will be it. If the fight isn't interrupted, then Ichigo will not loose a 3rd time. It will defeat all logic, be incredibly plotkai-ish, but yeah, he won't lose.

    If the fight IS interrupted, Grimmjow will break down in tears.
     
  25. SiSL

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    Only weakness of Ichigo being human, he had so much reiatsu that his body can not hold actually. That is reason when Shirosaki took control, he is far more better, because he simply is not "his" body anymore.

    So what I am telling is, Ulquiorra's view is actually real Ichigo's power, flactuation comes from Shirosaki. So basically Shirosaki would only help him ignore his body weakness. I don't think he needs any more power-ups rather than instinct for battle.
     
  26. Bfrost7

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    are you guys factoring GJ's release form? although vaizard ichigo is seen slapping around 1 arm GJ, i don't think he can beat GJ with 2 arms and an unseen released form
     
  27. Trias

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    Vaizard Ichigo > Kanonji > Aizen if it isn't for the time limit, so yes, he can.
     
  28. Allen89

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    I agree with you, that Ichigo surely can't beat Grimmjow, looking at the situation carefully.

    I think there will be a huge battle between then, resulting in both heavily injured and a released Grimmjow finally appearing. Unfornately, this is probably their last battle, as I can't see KT making any more future battles for these two after all the prep and suspense he's created just for this showdown. This arch will probably result in the death of Grimmjow.
     
  29. ez

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    Anything's possible at the moment and franky Ichigo can't lose this fight. There will be some reason why Ichigo can suddenly defeat Grimmjow, like how magically one piece characters like sanji suddenly get stronger with each arc.
     
  30. Kira-chan

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    The thing is, I've kind of gotten the impression that more training isn't really what Ichigo needs at this point. By all rights it seems like he should be able to hold his mask a lot longer than 11 seconds by now, the Vizards themselves were getting exasperated at his lack of progess during his time with them after all. So maybe the question we should be asking is *why* Ichigo's limit seems to be so pathetic even after all his training, maybe something like this is exactly what he needs to overcome that.
     
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