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Surpassing Perfection: Itachi, Yondaime. Naruto, Sasuke.

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Sho, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. Sho Active Member

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    I was thinking about this after I recalled one of the threads here that was talking about Mary Sues (or Gary Stus). It was discussing if one of the characters were to be a Mary Sue (I think if Sai was) or not in the story. It explained alot about Mary Sues here in Wikipedia:

    Now though they don't share same points in everthing, I think that this concept can be applied to the Naruto series in terms of the "perfect shinobi". The perfect shinobi is supposed to represent all of what a shinobi strives to be, in strength, skill, personality, fame, even looks. They continuously shock or surprise others in terms of what they can do, and they are praised, it seems, continuously by their enemies and/or allies. They show rarely show, if they do at all, emotion in battle and usually they are seen as untouchable by many. They generally have enormous potential and they set examples for others (either positively or negatively), rather than the other way around. Whatever flaws they have, it either makes them endearing (like being happy all the time) or keeps them from becoming too powerful (like being blind or having an unwillingness to kill). When they do die, they go out in a matter befitting their life, in a legendary way. For some reason, most have short lives as well.

    Examples of Mary Sues in other places are Galahad in The Search for the Holy Grail, the blind swordsman in the first animated movie of Ninja Scroll, Hiko in RK, reborn Griffith in Berserk, Xena in Xena (jeez that's old :p), Goku in DBZ, Sephiroth and Aerith in FF7, and I've heard Legolas in LoTR is one as well (haven't read the book). Basically, you can find them in every medium and it's nothing new. There's also tons more examples out there, and I assume people here know of a few more to add to the list.

    According to the Naruto series, a shinobi must have all these characteristics:
    -A ninja must look beneath the underneath and generally must be aware at all times
    -A ninja must not be clouded or heavily affected by emotions
    -A ninja is a weapon to be used
    -A ninja is a killing machine
    -A ninja must work within the team
    -A mission should be all for the ninja

    What I believe is that Yondaime and Itachi are supposed to represent the pinnacle of what a shinobi is supposed to be, and they represent the "perfect shinobi" ideal as a benchmark for Naruto and Sasuke to surpass. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that Yondaime is the strongest shinobi, or that Itachi is the strongest shinobi. It simply means that they represent the pinnacle of what a shinobi is and should be (And yes I believe they are one of the strongest shinobi, in the top tier). Kishimoto is representing the two as ultimate shinobi for a reason.

    Yondaime and Itachi are two sides of the same coin. They represent "light" part of perfection, and the "dark" part of perfection. This means that they have achieved the "perfect shinobi" ideal, but in different ways in terms of method, outlook, and allegiance obviously. However their approach to battle, their ability and efficiency is the same. Most importantly, they have that aura of untouchability in battle, as if nothing could affect them for long or much no matter what or who the opponent is.

    Yondaime and Itachi are Mary Sues.

    Why? They are basically perfect. Most importantly, like I said earlier, they are supposed to be Naruto and Sasuke's benchmark for the series. It's interesting how even at the beginning of the series, when Naruto was first introduced, and then Sasuke, we knew they each wanted to surpass someone, and both were long term dreams/ambitions. Now is it a coincidence that the level Naruto and Sasuke are shooting for respectively is held by two ninjas with such similar character types? Is it a coincidence that they both hold the supreme shinobi ideal? Yondaime symbolized the good shinobi ideal of protection, while Itachi symbolizes the soulless shinobi ideal of destruction. Is it a coincidence that they were each acknowledged by a Sannin (who many think as the strongest in the world) as exceeding their own power (this being Jiraiya talking about Yondaime, and Orochimaru talking about Itachi)? Is it a coincidence that two of the main characters (Naruto and Sasuke) are two sides of the same coin as well? And most importantly, is it a coincidence that Itachi seems to represent a mature Sasuke without flaws, and Yondaime seems to represent a mature Naruto without flaws? I think not.

    This is one of the reasons why I believe Itachi and Yondaime (as well as other antagonists such as the Akatsuki leader and a few strong members of the Akatsuki) are stronger than the Sannin. Despite the Sannin's great strength and renown, they hardly represent the ideal of perfection that Itachi and Yondaime do. They have glaring flaws, all three of them, despite their strengths. This makes them more dynamic characters in the end, but it's not a good idea to set them as the benchmark for the series. The benchmark is perfection, and though no shinobi is perfect, Yondaime and Itachi so far best embody this. Sandaime is a good counterpoint to this since he was stated as the strongest, however we clearly saw his flaws and character quirks even despite his great strength (such as not having the heart to truly stop Orochimaru in the past, being a super-pervert that gets beat by Naruto's Sexy no Jutsu, etc.).

    Moreover, Naruto is training with a strong Sannin teacher to defeat an even stronger antagonist (Akatsuki leader), and his benchmark (Yondaime). Likewise, Sasuke is training with a strong Sannin teacher to defeat an even stronger antagonist. In those cases, the teacher is not stronger than the antagonist they are training their students for. If you want reasons for this, and want this explained more, I have it all in my old thread:
    Must-read for all new members.

    Of course, now the natural follow-up question is:
    How can Naruto and Sasuke truly surpass Yondaime and Itachi?

    The answer on paper is: They can't truly surpass them. Sasuke and Naruto both have flaws which definitely make for more dynamic characters and interesting storyline, and these character traits make the characters more endearing to the fans. I can understand this since it makes for a better story with actual character growth. You can't start off a story with perfect main characters after all. However, this also means that it prevents them from becoming the shinobi ideal that they measure themselves against. Therefore, if they are measured against that ideal, they fail and they won't have surpassed them.

    However, in reality, we know that they will eventually surpass them in the future, towards the end of the series. So the question becomes: in what way will they surpass them?

    In terms of pure power, yes they probably will surpass them (because of Kyuubi and Cursed seal). But in terms of everything else? Tactics? Strategy? Intelligence? Awareness? Insight? Ingenuity? Will? Variety of techniques? It's doubtful. Power isn't everything in a shinobi fight and just because one is more powerful than the other, doesn't mean that they'll always win the fight. The Yondaime/Kyuubi fight proves this point especially. I believe that once you reach a certain level, then it's possible for you to kill anyone, even if the other person is stronger, just as long as you are around the same level. So being just stronger won't necessarily mean they surpassed them. So how can they surpass them?

    I believe there's two answers for that:

    1. Naruto and Sasuke lose their unique character flaws through the course of the series and basically become a Yondaime and (good) Itachi clone towards the end. This would let them surpass the two.

    or

    2. They redefine the meaning of what a shinobi is for themselves. In other words, they make themselves their own new ideal of what a shinobi should be. With this, they became strong in their own way, and they don't necessarily have to surpass Itachi and Yondaime in the same areas to be considered as a greater shinobi. Others will use them as the standards instead of the other way around.

    It can also be a mixture of both as well: Naruto can take on some of the characteristics of Yondaime, and Sasuke can take on characteristics of Itachi, yet they keep their base personalities.

    Whatever it is, right now Naruto and Sasuke don't embody the shinobi ideal yet because of their unique circumstances and personalities (i.e: it's hard for Naruto to control his emotion during tense battles, and he's 'loud'. For Sasuke, he's emotional and can't think straight when confronted with the topic of Itachi, and he's not a 'team-player' anymore). Therefore, they are flawed if we are to use that criteria to judge them as shinobi, or if we were to compare them to their benchmarks. Now while I admit Yondaime and Itachi are pretty badass, I'm not interested in having clones of them, but I'm sure some people would like that. Frankly I like the characters as they are, I wouldn't be interested in having them change their base personalities.

    Ironically, I think there are others who are better examples of the shinobi ideal at this point than Naruto and Sasuke. Out of the other ninjas (besides that of Itachi and Yondaime), I believe that Neji symbolizes a Mary Sue as well now, or a 'perfect shinobi' in other words. It seems like he's lost his character flaws after his fight with Naruto and after he read the note by his father. Likewise Haku was a perfect example of a Mary Sue as well. In fact, I think that was a reason why he was killed off.

    I also think Sasori can be considered one as well if you consider his appearance, abilities, and the way he chose to die. That's one puppeteer that I truly won't believe anyone else will be able to surpass in that area (sorry Kankurou.)

    Anyways, so those are my ideas on them surpassing their benchmark and also on the idea of the perfect shinobi. Discuss if you want, or not.
     
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  2. Gyroscope the flavin and the mavin

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    Good post.
    As for Sasuke and Naruto becoming benchmarks themselves, I wouldnt want to see character changes in them.
    It would be better off if they kept their unique characteristics while simultaneously exhibiting qualities of the "Perfect Ninja".
    Eventually Naruto will be made a benchmark for future Ninjas to surpass, that is for sure, and if Sasuke doesnt die while resolving his conflict, Id say even he has a very good chance of making it as a benchmark himself.

    And good point on Neji.I believe even Shino can be considered a Mary Sue.He hasnt shown any character flaws thus far, and his compulsion of never ever underestimating an opponent is rather a + point.
    That and his following his instincts and fighting for Konoha despite being a Genin and despite not having received any orders to do so.
     
  3. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    Excellent post. I especially agree with the part about the Sannins not being the strongest forces in the show. I believe that Jiraiya's power is extremely overestimated and Oro is underestimated. I believe Naruto and Sasuke will redefine the meaning of a good Shinobi because that seems to be the theme in Naruto so far.
     
  4. Woofie Coordinator

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    It will definitely be number 2, of course. Naruto's personality will almost certainly never change at all - it didn't change over the time skip, and it would be a huge risk to tone down or remove the main character's characteristics anyway. The same will probably go for Sasuke too - his emotions are the most fundamental part of his character, so I doubt he'll ever become emotionless like Itachi.

    Also, Naruto has been questioning what it means to be a ninja and developing his own way as a ninja since the series started, and it seems to be catching on judging by the amount of converts he has following him. :) That will no doubt continue, so by the end of the series, everyone sees his way as being that of the perfect Hokage.

    The only real problem with this is that while it's fairly obvious that Itachi isn't a particularly good role model by our standards (and Sasuke's way should be better), there's no reason yet to think that Yondaime isn't. He is so hugely respected, and has been portrayed as perfect - not just as a ninja, but as a person as well. While Naruto may become equally perfect in his own way, I really don't see how it's possible for him to surpass Yondaime in that way. He'll just be different. But in that case, why would he become the new archetype of ninja perfection? He'll be different, but not better. So then neither (1) or (2) will really be true... he won't be a Yondaime clone, but there will be no reason to take him and his ideals as the new standard either.

    That is why I think something will have to be revealed about Yondaime to shatter the impression of him as being perfect (and perhaps that will spur Naruto on even more). He could be still alive and evil, but that's not necessary... it could be something about his intentions with the Kyuubi sealing, or something like that. Or some conspiracy... I don't know, it isn't worth thinking about details I guess. The point is, I think something like this is necessary, or else Naruto will only ever be an alternative standard and role model, rather than the standard.

    Anyway, that's a slight deviation. :) I liked your post, it was an interesting read and I agree with all of it.
     
  5. geminis Active Member

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    Sho, I respect you so much man. This is the second best analysis thread/post I read (IMO). This post plus the "eloquent theory on jutsus" or something like that, are amazing really opened up my mind in a philosofical way.

    (I don't usually suck up to ppl but sho and whoever posted that eloquent theory on jutsus are impressive posters) I can actually rep now that I have some myself.

    Why can't I rep anybody? Can somebody explain this to me?
     
  6. ikra Member

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    morreee i want mooorrrreee this satisfies my huinger on waiting for the next chapter -_- gawd ure a genius
     
  7. TenshiOni Active Member

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    Great post, Sho. As always. I agree with most of it.

    Goin' with 2.





     
  8. Shisui is dead

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    Yes, definitely. "Mary Sue"...that's a great term. Never heard it before. You are exactly right though: Yondaime and Itachi represent perfectly opposed ideals, and this is the reason (according to manga/myth logic) why they surpass the great, yet flawed Sannin.

    And since we're being literary: Yondaime and Itachi are "father figures" to Naruto and Sasuke, respectively. They represent an ideal to attain, but at the same time, they represent stasis, a status quo that the heroes must ultimately shatter and surpass as well. They could be defined as the two opposing sides of the "Tyrant Hero" that Joseph Campbell talks about:

    But Campbell says that this version of the Hero as an emperor tends also to deteriorate when he comes to realize his own greatness and internalize it, believing himself to be the true source of power and greatness, rather than seeing his power as stemming from his harmonization with the great flow of life/humankind/what have you. This would be Itachi:

    So Yondaime and Itachi represent the two opposing sides of the Tyrant Hero-Mary Sue. One of the important themes in Naruto is that greatness is a cycle, rather than an absolute. Greatness must be surpassed and replaced, and the cycle must continue, or figures like Itachi begin to emerge who fail to recognize the cycle and see greatness as originating only in themselves.
     
  9. Spy_Smasher Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, I think you are misunderstanding ... a bit ... the concept of a Mary Sue. While Mary Sues are very overblown in their personal characteristics, their most important role is as a representative of the author in the story. Fortunately, this does not really mar your post in any significant way.

    I believe Gentz has it right. Both Itachi and Yondaime Hokage are perfect examples of Campbell's Father Figure. I believe that Campbell posited that the hero must "slay" his Father Figure in order to complete his hero journey. Am I right in this Gentz? It is interesting that at this point in the story slaying Itachi is literally Sasuke's goal. Naruto however has no interest at all in Yondaime. The person that Naruto wishes to surpass is of course Sasuke...
     
  10. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    I agree with all of the analysis except the labelling of Yondaime and Itachi as Mary Sues. They aren't. Generally, a character being a Mary Sue is a bad thing because Sues are annoyingly perfect and wreck the story with their stealing the show. Neither Yondaime nor Itachi are bad characters, so they are not May Sues. Itachi is not a Mary Sue because he is flawed in many respects: his strength is not firmly established (yeah, I think he's stronger than Orochimaru, but it isn't 100% certain yet) and his behavior is erratic at times (especially around Sasuke, whose presence causes him to make bad decisions). Plus, he's a villain, and Mary Sues are almost never antagonists.

    Yondaime is not a Mary Sue because he isn't an active participant in the story. Yondaime is just a legendary figure who died and left a very important legacy. He appears flawless because he isn't present to display any flaws. A chapter cover did say that he was vain, so he wasn't 100% perfect either. Yondaime is no more a Mary Sue than, say, George Washington. Yondaime may be regarded as perfect, but his being dead prevents him from stealing the show as Mary Sues do.
     
  11. sheshyo Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    Nice analysis. After reading the Wikipedia link on Mary Sue, I noticed the difference between Mary Sue and Gary Sue type characters. It mentioned that the perfection associated with Mary Sue oriented on personality, while perfection associated with Gary Sue oriented more on physical traits, skills, or expertise. However both type do share characteristics, for example a traumatic past. This along with other common features listed on the website for both types has lead me to believe that,

    Naruto = Mary Sue
    Sasuke = Gary Stu
     
  12. Pride Swerve

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    Good post. I agree with most of everything, especially the part about how Naruto and Sasuke both will not surpass them in anything besides pure power based on their power ups.

    I also like your observence about Neji.

    And yes Sasori is truly a puppeteer genius.
     
  13. dylec .

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    Very interesting analysis. I find this level of depth is almost, if not completely, out of reach for the typical readers.
    Whether, Yondaime and Itachi are Sues or not, I feel that option 2 is the most plausible for this series. The theme of this manga (or one of them) is to be yourself. That is what Naruto & Sasuke have been doing all this time. They would be the Sues and set their own stages for everyone out there. :amuse
     
  14. Leen Peacemaker

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    Well Sho, what can I say? I know nothing about Mary Sue and even after reading your post, I still dont quite understand very well. Can u explain it in a simple way rather than a link to a whole long essay.

    Anyway, I really enjoy reading your post despite the fact that I have no idea around 30% things that u are trying to tell. I am going with option 2. Naruto is not a copy cat. He will surpasses all hokages one day with his own way, not Yondaime's way, Jiraiya's or anyone else.

    He will become a hokage and a perfect shinobi like what u say and set up their own standards. It also can a bit of mixture between the two of them. Well, after all, he is still Jiraiya's student whether we like it or not. Somehow some of those qualities and traits will find their way into Naruto's heart and shape him into what he will be in the future.

    Anyway, good post. I agree with u. Except the Mary Sue thing that I dont understand.
     
  15. Gyroscope the flavin and the mavin

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    Actually theres a lot that hasnt been revealed about Yondaime.We havnt even actually seen him fight for one.
    And it just doesnt sit well with me, someone that has played a pivotal role in this series, someone whom the main character places as his benchmark, someone who started the whole goddamn thing :).For someone like that, knowing so little about him is what makes me think, we will get to see Yondaime fight again.
    Kishi had the chance to make it happen in the Gaiden, and unless we have another Gaiden of sorts, Im almost certain Yondaime will have a part to play in the series, be it good or bad.
     
  16. Chatulio Senex

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    Ima go with option 2. Since one of the characters (Naruto) redifining his definition of a shinobi is a garuntee for the advancement of the plot and his growth. The most obvious way is for naruto to lose control of himself while using kyuubi power and hurting one of his friends. This will lead to sadness and anger. Sadness that he hurt someone and angerat himself about losing control which will lead to him wanting to blame some one, he could choose yondaime as a venting source which will eventually lead to a revelation of sorts which will change him extremely.
     
  17. FFLN The Smexiness has arrived

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    That's something along the lines of what I was going to point out. While both Naruto and Sasuke have stated who they want to surpass, or in Naruto's case, a person whom he admires, they don't necessarily have to surpass them, but rather those two seemingly "perfect" ninja will be made more human by having more information revealed about them as well as the state of their beings. Although, it'll be different for both since Yondaime "isn't alive" while Itachi is alive. In Itachi's case, his seemingly perfect exterior will probably be shattered by an emotional collapse on his part as well as deeply moving confessions. The untouchable Itachi will then become flawed since he will no longer be "truly evil" as he may be viewed now, even though he hasn't shown any action to indicate that besides slaughtering his entire clan.

    For Yondaime... if he remains as he is, a legend or a figure, instead of actually returning in some way, then it's likely that Naruto will just attempt to pattern himself after Yondaime rather than actually trying to surpass him. Perhaps the goal of reaching Hokage will become more attainable in Naruto's mind if he learns more about Yondaime and his personality, quirks, likes, dislikes, strengths, weaknesses... he'll become human to Naruto and he'll be easier for Naruto, as well as the readers and viewers, to relate to. We got a bit of that in Kakashi Gaiden, but not enough to show us the extent of Yondaime's personality. We only know that he was kind and caring to his friends and watched those in his care with a stern hand and demeanor. We also know that he destroyed the enemy without a word. He was kind enough to allow that Stone ninja his few last words, but other than that small grace of mercy, he didn't allow potentially dangerous enemies to live or to possibly return to harm him or others around him. So far we've seen his good qualities and have gotten an idea of why he was, and still is, praised by so many in Konoha and known in other countries as well. Now what's left is to know the negative aspects of the Yondaime. Even the most perfect person has a flaw, and he's no different, or rather, he won't be once it's revealed. That's what'll really allow people to eventually see his position as being attainable by Naruto. It won't be because Naruto will just become so good in heart and super-powered, but rather, Yondaime will be brought down to levels which we can relate to much more easily.

    It's likely that both Naruto and Sasuke will find their own way and path, but you can still consider Yondaime and Itachi to be their motivating factor.
     
  18. Odlam Team 7 4 Life

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    I HEAVILY disagree here. In fact, my own belief is that both the Kyuubi and the curse seal will be gone from both fighters by the end of the series. Kyuubi will be removed from Naruto somehow, but he willl remain with a small fragment of its abilities like Gaara has done with Shukaku, toning it down to more of a bloodlimit type ability then the shinobi ability of an atom bomb. Sasuke's curse seal powers will also disappear theoritcally once Orochimaru is killed, although he will hopefully gain another variation of Sharingan

    Unless of course your talking merely within the context of this second timeskip. I agree they certainly wont be outskilling Yondaime and Itachi in those other areas at age 15, but they certainly will be on par and greater in time.
     
  19. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    Very good post Sho.:)


    I have to agree with you.
     
  20. Rangamaru Obito Killed The Uchiha Clan

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    I never thought Yondaime and Itachi were ever that great to begin with. We haven't seen enough of Yondaime, and In my opinion I don't think Itachi is all that great. He's a strong character, However, MS is his bread and butter. He I theorizethat he's good in other areas, but his jutsu are his trump cards. I believe Naruto and Sasuke will surpass them quickly after we are introduced to a few more characters.
     
  21. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Good post. Makes you think...
     
  22. Mibu Clan Chibi Mibu

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    Fist fo All...Can someone explain what a Mary Sue is...So I can understand :( Pleaase?
     
  23. TDM Toast

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    Go look it up on Wikipedia.

    Sho, great post :thumbs
     
  24. HolyHands Let me touch you

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    For those who are still confused on what a Mary Sue is, I'll try to explain it a bit as much as I can.

    A Mary Sue basically describes a "perfect" character. Physically, they are extremely strong, very skilled, and often possess a unique ability that only they have. There isn't a person alive who dislikes the Mary Sue. They Mary Sue is always good-looking. Good guys love her. Bad guys repect/fear her. And anybody who claims that they "dislike" the Mary Sue often secretly like or look up to the Mary Sue. The Mary Sue can do no wrong. Everything she does is for a good reason. She rarely makes mistakes, and if she does, nobody faults her for it. She could go out and slaughter a kindergarden class and get away with it. She steals the spotlight EVERYWHERE she goes. She is always the center of attention at all times. She always has a tragic past, and if she dies, it will be a heroic sacrifice, and the Mary Sue will be remembered as a legend.

    To sum it up, Mary Sues are perfect.

    And it's for that reason so many people hate Mary Sues. They usually only appear in fanfiction, and when they do, they are incredibly annoying. You literally can't go 5 steps without the Mary Sue barging in, becoming the center of attention, and getting away with things they do wrong. But as far as the more mainstream stories go, Mary Sues aren't always annoying because they don't appear as often.

    When you take a look at Naruto, there are a couple Mary Sues here and there. As Sho pointed out, Neji is a Mary Sue, since he's talented, strong, good-looking, and the flaws he used to have are gone. But since Neji doesn't appear often and doesn't constantly steal the spotlight, very few people actually hate him. Haku was also a Mary Sue, but died early enough as to not be irritating. Sasuke is NOT a Mary Sue since he has flaws, but you could say he is Mary Sue-ish at times(spotlight thief). And as for Sai, he may become a Mary Sue as well, but we don't know enough about him yet. And as Sho said, Yodaime and Itachi are Mary Sues since they appears to have no flaws, but being as they are rarely mentioned and are not always the center of attention, they aren't hated.

    See a pattern here? Mary Sues are usually forced to be either killed or kept in the sidelines in order to prevent be hated by fans. If they constantly steal the spotlight, you can expect that character to have a very huge Anti fanclub. Fortunately though, most authors know when to put a stop to a Mary Sue before they become annoying.

    Anyways, I hope that clears it up a bit for those who are still confused.
     
  25. ChildGamez The agony of RawR camping!

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    Great post .. but I still can't understand the meaning of "Mary Sue" :crying (I read the wikipedia thing).. is it supposed to be a character ment for other character (so the character becomes like mary sue.. meaning he's somekind of idol?) or is he a character which is ment to die or what?

    Please explain this to me like you would to a child. Let's say 8 year old boy want's to know what it is. Tell him!

    EDIT: Oh, thanks HolyHands!
     
  26. Marsala The Ice-Cream Man Cometh

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    The term "Mary Sue" originated to describe characters in fanfiction. Mary Sue is the new crewmember of the Enterprise whom everyone loves. Mary Sue is the American transfer student to Hogwarts who is Snape's daughter, Voldemort's granddaughter, and the love of both Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy's lives. Mary Sue is Sasuke's long-lost twin sister who also has the Byakugan and is a jinchuuriki. Mary Sue is the self-insertion of the fanfiction author into the story who can do no wrong and has all sorts of special powers.

    The term Mary Sue has widened, however, to the point where original characters in canon are labelled as Sues. I find this to be wrong. Minor characters like Neji and Yondaime may not show many flaws but they lack the primary attribute of the true Mary Sue: being badly written in their perfection to make the audience hate them.
     
  27. Clly New Member

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    I was just thinking. People think Yondaime is Naruto's father but could they be brothers?
     
  28. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    lol, interesting theory.

    I think Yondaime is even more overrated than Itachi though. Talented? Yes. imo, the second most talented character in the show. I just dont think he reached that point yet.

    Sasuke and Naruto aren't gary stues because they are flawed?

    and I dont think they will ever outgrow those flaws.
     
  29. Kazekage_Shinagami new 3rd squad Captain

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    I agree with you. It's an exalent post.
    Also I see shino as MarySue as well he has on every occasion shown that he can read situations accuratly and has the ability to back it up. imo.
     
  30. Naruto_Rasengan Banned

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    I completely agree with this.
     
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