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Thanos w/HOTU vs. Phoenix of the White Crown

Discussion in 'Comics Battledome' started by Dark Evangel, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. Dark Evangel Merry Meet

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    This is a match between Thanos with Heart of the Universe and Phoenix of the White Crown, The HOTU is basically God's power and it's above LT and Phoenix of the White Crown is Jean in X-men forever who is claimed to be above LT by "GalacticStorm".

    Who Will Win In A Death Match Between This Two???
     
  2. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    First of all, Thanos with the HOTU is NOT above the Living Tribunal. He's above an M-Body of the Living Tribunal, which has a fraction of its powers. The tier would go like this

    The One Above All
    The Living Tribunal
    Heart of the Universe
    M-Body of the Living Tribunal
    Infinity Gauntlet
    Cosmological Points (Eternity, Death, Infinity, Oblivion)
    etc.

    The Phoenix is the summation of all life (retconned into psionic energy now, I believe) in the past, present, and future. Furthermore, there's no real proof that Phoenix is above the Living Tribunal. Whoever GalacticStorm is, he or she is most probably lying.

    To answer the question on who wins the death match, it's Thanos with the HOTU.

    Sorry if I sound harsh.
     
  3. Rice Ball Active Member

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    What do you Mean by M Body of the LT?

    I'm sure you've read Marvel:The End and seen the part where Eternity/Infinity and the Living Tribunal were absorbed. Where was it said that wasn't the LT in his full glory?
     
  4. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    There is a race of abstract beings from the Dimension of Manifestation. Known as the Manifestations, they serve the cosmic entities of the Marvel omniverse by creating M-Bodies for them. These M-Bodies are proxies or avatars for cosmic entities to act through when they themselves can not attend. An exmaple of cosmic being (or race, in this case) who uses these bodies are the Celestials, who can manifest themselves at different places at the same time.

    Now, the Living Tribunal is slightly special. He is to keep the balance of the multiverse. Thus, within each universe is a M-Body of the Living Tribunal. The actual Living Tribunal himself has authority and powers that would shake the entire multiverse, as he is responsible for threats on a multiversal scale. If there was an appearance made by the actual Living Tribunal in all his glory, it would have to be in DC vs. Marvel. And even then, his abilities were dwarfed by the Brothers and DC vs. Marvel was never canon.

    For clarification, in the Marvel The End #6, Thanos destroyed the 616 universe. However, he was unable to leave the now absent 616 universe, nor sense anything beyond it. Adam Warlock's appearance surprised him greatly. Thus, since the Living Tribunal exists and works on a multiversal scale, we can safely say that he's still alive and working. And if you think why did the Living Tribunal did not confront Thanos after, it had no reason. The 616 universe was gone, and therefore no longer in the Marvel multiverse.
     
  5. Rice Ball Active Member

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    Firstly what use is the LT if he never appears, why didn't he confront thanos when he had the chance instead of leaving it to a M-Body who was very much inferiour to Thanos.

    He had already judged Thanos but didn't use his full power to backup his judgement? that doesn't sound very likely tbh :amuse

    And also how do you know HOTU powers are weaker than LT? What proof can you bring to this apart from guess work?
     
  6. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    Um.....Primal Force = LT.

    But the feat's done by Thanos w/HOTU was the single greatest display of power second or next to Jean when she stop the destruction of the Multiverse.
     
  7. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Nearly every cosmic being possess an M-Body; it's how they manage to be at more than two places at once if they want to.

    Look at Thanos with the HOTU. He was one with the 616 universe. In his absorbtion/destruction, he was left with an empty void. Adam Warlock comes in, outside of the 616 universe, when Thanos could not feel anything beyond the now gone 616 universe.

    LT exists in the whole of the multiverse, due to his role of keeping its balance. To kill him in one universe only eliminates his M-Body of that universe.

    Firstly what use is the LT if he never appears, why didn't he confront thanos when he had the chance instead of leaving it to a M-Body who was very much inferiour to Thanos.

    A Living Tribunal M-Body is responsible for the balance of the universe its in. The REAL Living Tribunal, lording over the multiverse, will appear if say, there was a threat that threatens the entirety of the multiverse like DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths.

    He had already judged Thanos but didn't use his full power to backup his judgement? that doesn't sound very likely tbh

    His judgment has been overruled before, by Korvac (I think). Then again, we could chalk this up to LT's M-Body.
     
  8. Rice Ball Active Member

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    So your saying the LT doesn't interfear even when he makes a judgement and his M body is unable to backup that judgement with force. No offence but that doesn't sound too much like a cosmic judge.

    Can you tell me where you got his information from? Which comics discribe this?

    In a What-If comic yes which isn't canon :) and again nothing about an m-body.
     
  9. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Yes, LT doesn't interfere even when his M-Body is unable to support his judgment. Yeah, he's not much of a tribunal.

    The "Quasar" series mentions this. Issue #37 to #40, give or take an issue.
     
  10. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Alrighty. Done a bit of researching.

    With the Phoenix Force now retconned as the summation of psionic energy of all the realities of the multiverse, against the HOTU Thanos, I say it would be a draw. From what we seen of Thanos HOTU, he was unable to act out of the 616 universe; Phoenix Force is a multiversal force, and White Crown being its peak.

    Basically, to kill the Phoenix Force in its entirety, one must eliminate all psionic energy of the multiverse.

    Not sure if HOTU Thanos is killable, or whether HOTU > or < Phoenix Force of the White Crown, so I say its a draw.
     
  11. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    I think the Primal Force itself (Phoenix Force for others) Is greater then the HOTU.

    Since PF does act at a mulitverse scale.
    And Phoenix did stop the destruction of the mulitverse, by jump starting the unstable M-Kran crystale (which was about to destroy the entire Mulity Verse)

    On top of that Niether Primal Force or Phoenix have had to attend any of the Judgements LT has, the way other minor cosmics has.

    And has bin shown to be above Eternity, Infinity, Galactus as well as other minor cosmics.

    So I think its safe to assume that Primal Force>HOTU.
    Phoenix Of The White Crown => Thanos HOTU.
     
  12. Rice Ball Active Member

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    It depends where the Battle Takes place, if it takes place in the 616 universe then Thanos wins.
     
  13. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    What buble is tring to say is....Thanos wins regardles of the location, situation, and who it is!:p

    (Unles Squirl Girl appears)
     
  14. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    I think the Primal Force itself (Phoenix Force for others) Is greater then the HOTU.

    Since PF does act at a mulitverse scale.
    And Phoenix did stop the destruction of the mulitverse, by jump starting the unstable M-Kran crystale (which was about to destroy the entire Mulity Verse)


    The Mkrann Crystal is the nexus for all realities, also the holder of a neutron galaxy (or universe, I forget which).

    On top of that Niether Primal Force or Phoenix have had to attend any of the Judgements LT has, the way other minor cosmics has.

    Well, I think that the Phoenix Force is exempt; it's literally a force of nature itself, not a anthropomorphic manifestation like Eternity, Death, etc.[/i]

    And has bin shown to be above Eternity, Infinity, Galactus as well as other minor cosmics.[i/]

    Well, I don't think so. One thing, it's been long debated of who's more powerful; Phoenix and Galactus, since they did actually meet and did battle. It's generally agreed that Galactus is more powerful than the Phoenix. However, White Crown is unknown.

    Can you help elaborate Id?

    So I think its safe to assume that Primal Force>HOTU.
    Phoenix Of The White Crown => Thanos HOTU.


    Yeah. Unless there's a Heart of the Multiverse. Which they all be screwed.

    And should Squirrel Girl fail, look no further than Mr. Satan (Hercule) of DBZ. His jobbing aura is so strong, it's bound to stretch across the entire omniverses.
     
  15. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    Ok I wanted to sum up everything I said into a single post. Why? Cus I can and Im bored.

    The “Primal Force, and The “Living Tribunal” are the only two cosmic entities that have bin known to act an in Multi-Verse Scale.

    The LT, has authority to maintain a balance throughout out the multi-verse. Adding/Stripping powers at a cosmic scale. Destroying/Sealing universe and other lesser cosmic’s who he deems as a threat. He remains constant thru out all and judges as he sees best, disregarding any emotion as if a computer is following the programs command.

    The PF, on the other hand is the force of destruction/creation throughout all of the MU at a multi-verse scale, as well. And if it wishes to when, the “PF” sees its time to end a universe, the PF. has the ability to choose who is going to be the survivors, and as well as appointing new cosmic entities.

    The LT, has bin deemed superior to the PF simply because there is no simple humanoid/intelligent being as a host, the way PF is. He is simply a cosmic entity who was created by an even higher Power, and is as old as time itself. Its job is to simply job, with no emotional attachments to avoid making mistakes, and making the best out of hard decisions. Making him a form of Nature to the MU.

    The Primal Force, on the other hand has the same power of class. The LT did not create the PF. The PF was created by a higher power to follow the course of Nature of the MU as well. The PF itself does not have emotions or feeling like the LT. But is in charge of Creating Not judging. And the reason behind the PF choosing a host, is so it can do a better job recreating/coordinating the new MU over the old. (it needs the raw emotions such as compsion, love, hate and so on that can only be obtained from a host/avatar.)

    Now if someone is to be wilding such high power, why do they have such high Highs, and such low Low’s? mostly due to PIS, CIS. Keep in mind it’s a comic book not a science book. (I mean it is a comic book that breaks the laws of Physics and thermodynamics on a regular basis.)

    Can LT challenge the Primal Force? Apparently no.

    When the PF decides to Coordinate the MU, Can it replace the LT over another abstract? Apparently no.

    But Here is a better question….. Can LT strip the powers of White Crown Phoenix, If he deems it as a cosmic threat? This is something that started to bug me.

    I am not sure.
    WCP is the closet thing we have to a host completely merging to the Primal Force itself. I don’t think LT can, since the Jean is protected by the “Primal Force” and LT can not undo or challenge the PF at will, (remember I deemed them as equal.)

    And that was the point of my thread was to see if the LT has ever challenged and succeeded in undoing the will of the PF. So far I haven’t gotten my answer.


    Any how here are some scans and feats to back up my claims.
    The Watcher claims the PF is second only to the “Creator”
    Spoiler:
    [/QUOTE]


    Other cosmic that praise her above theirs.
    Spoiler:
    [/QUOTE]



    Proof that PF does choses who gets to survive the big Bang/Crush and who becomes a new abstract of the MU.
    Spoiler:
    [/QUOTE]


    Here we see Jean (White Crown Phoenix) holding the MU at the palm of her hand, and altering reality as she sees fit. Also other hosts/avatar from other timelines and or different MU’s to prove that the Primal force does act at a mulit-verse Scale by appointing a host to weild the PF in her/his universe.
    Spoiler:





     
  16. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. White Crown Phoenix Force is something I missed, and only heard of during the Endsond mini-series.

    You might want to check the Earth Born Strongest Mutant thread, which you bumped. I added my two cents.
     
  17. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    Yeah me and Arilou had a long debate about LT vs PF...It was a good debate thou.

    I checked out your post. But I wont be doing any updates to it. (That Tier List gave me headaces)
     
  18. Rice Ball Active Member

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    Leave my Fanboisam alone :amuse

    Theres no Doubt about it, if you give Thanos powers like that hes going to own pretty much anyone he faces no matter how powerful they are :)
     
  19. Dark Evangel Merry Meet

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    Where was the Phoenix Force in THE END saga? Nowhere to be found. White Crown Phoenix was impressive, but Thanos with THOTU ended everything within a blink of an eye. Which probably included The Phoenix Force.
     
  20. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Most likely, since it exists on a multiversal scale, the Phoenix Force moved elsewhere.
     
  21. Id Τοξότης Moderator

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    The host of the PF can be damaged and killed even under the influence of the PF.
    But the PF its self will never die.
    The PF will simply will itself back to existence and search for a new host.
     
  22. Rice Ball Active Member

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    Victory to Thanos via Ring out then?

    If he can keep killing any host that enters the 616 universe.
     
  23. tHotU Banned

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    Thanos had multiversal control.

    Look at this:
    Ultimately, Adam Warlock--who had been outside time and space alongside Atleza Langunn and Gamora and was thus spared the destruction--met with Thanos, convincing him that he should sacrifice his newfound power and his very life to restore existence. Thanos did so, using the Heart's power to re-create the multiverse bereft of the flaw that would have destroyed it.

    In his final moments, Thanos realized he had been manipulated by a being of supreme power to sacrifice his existence in his stead to save the realities from this flaw.


    The real name of the heart is Heart of the Infinite. And yes he was the strongest being of all time in Marvel comics.

    1. Thanos possessing the Heart / TOAA
    2. The Amalgam Brother's (Marvel and DC, like brother's)
    3. Pre-retcon Beyonder
    4. The Phoenix force
    5. Living Tribunal

    Thanos was stated to have the power of TOAA.
    And with TOAA's power he could do anything that TOAA could, for example unmake the Marvel universe.

    Pre-retcon Beyoder was stated to be able to destroy the multiverses many hundred times over. And he did own Living Tribunal.
    It was a Manifastation body, but L. Tribunal do not do anything unless TOAA comands him. And when he's order to do something, he uses all his power to serve the comand.

    Thanos ereased every reality. Anyone that can take L. Tribunal have the power to destroy the multiverse.
    There was just one "heart of the universe" (don't be fooled by the name, it's multiversal power).
    God manipulated Thanos to take it, like he manipulated Adam Warlock to go outside the multiverses. So that he would see Thanos when he returned and convice him to destroy this flaw (HotU) of the multiverses.

    Heart of the Universe equals TOAA's power.
    And he was stronger than Pre-retcon Beyonder who could destroy the multiverses "many hundred times over".
     
  24. Spacey Eternal beauty

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    Okay I don't know who you are but you're wrong it was never stated that the heart of the universe had infinite power nor that it held control of multiverses it was said to be the power core of the universe not the multiverse. And no Thanos was certainly not powerful enough to rival TOAA
     
  25. tHotU Banned

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    It was stated very clearly that Heart of the Universe was the essence and power of God. Anyone who possesses it becomes the TOAA.

    Since he had it he possessed a threat to TOAA, and therefore L. Tribunal attacked him.

    You could also see that he absorbed all the abstracts in the Multiverses.

    TOAA, is often said to be the writer/ author, and it was clearly as hell that Jim Starlin's favorite Thanos would become the strongest one there is.
     
  26. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    Yet, if it really was a multiversal power, why was the reality with Atleza, Adam Warlock, and Gamora spared?

    And Thanos didn't erase every reality. Only the 616 universe. Thanos says this in the first page of the first issue. Even Death existed on other planes of existence, as stated by Adam Warlock.
     
  27. tHotU Banned

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    How to say this:
    TOAA is the god of Marvel multiverses, thus he just control the multiverses of marvel.
    But his power does not affect the Omniverse (DC-multiverse, Naruto universe, dragonball universe ect.)
    Warlock who used the soulgem to open a portal could have connected it to another multiverse or some kind of cubic dimention not even TOAA controlled.

    It was stated that HotU wields the powerof TOAA.
    That was also why TOAA removed it, by manipulating Thanos to do so.

    TOAA knows everything, he knew that if he isolated Adam from his power he would convice Thanos to use the power of HotU to destroy it.
    It wasent the remake of the multiverse that killed Thanos, it was by destroying such power artifact.

    Eternity and Infinity have the power to eradicate a universe.
    Everyone above them have the power as well.

    If I got it right it works like this:
    TOAA is all energy in the multiverse, with energy you can make atom's and therefore character's like Spider-man, Beyonder ect.

    When Thanos became TOAA he absorbed all the TOAA was therefore the abstracts and everything else.
     
  28. tHotU Banned

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    First page, first issue?
    Thanos didn't even know about the heart of the infinite by then...
    You make it sound like he said it after the destroying the multiverses.
     
  29. Comic Book Guy Cassandra Cain Fanboy Advisor

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    First page, first issue. He states he destroyed the universe.

    6th issue, he reiterates this.

    Every issue opens with Thanos narrating past events.
     
  30. tHotU Banned

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    It doesnt matter how much he destroyed really.

    Almost every forum (exept this one) knows that Thanos destroy the multiverse.

    But it doesnt really matter, HotU wsa the power of OAA.
    Therefore Everyone who wields it have OAA's power.

    Thanos had OAA's power, he is basicly the one above all.

    It was stated; he can destroy a pair of pants for I care, he had OAA's power he could do anything.
     

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