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That time of year again...Again...TCM Toneri vs Juubito poll

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by WorldsStrongest, Nov 6, 2019.

???

  1. Toneri

    75.0%
  2. Juubito

    25.0%
  1. Hi no Ishi

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    Except what is sufficient for you isnt at issue, really.

    He says they are, so they are.

    The DB says they come from having the six paths power so they do.

    Naruto calls them six paths rods so they are.

    Sasuke calls them the six paths power so they are.

    The DB says they come from having 6 paths Senjutsu so they do.


    There is no proof that they are made of anything else, so that's what they are made of until proof is made the other way.

    Simple.

     
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  2. Kannon

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    So why didn't the DB page on TSBs classify the TSBs as senjutsu then if that DB page meant for senjutsu to be seen as a quality inherent to TSBs. This is the same DB page that says that the TSBs comes from having Six Paths senjutsu.

    Edit: You're conflating TSB and Six Paths senjutsu again. Just because TSBs comes from Six Paths senjutsu doesn't mean that all TSBs have senjutsu or that senjutsu is a quality that is inherent to TSBs.

    And just because TSBs comes from Six Paths senjutsu, it doesn't necessarily mean that TSBs is indicative of Six Paths senjutsu.

    Let me remind you that Toneri acquired TSBs through Tenseigan Chakra Mode which was never directly stated to contain Six Paths senjutsu. It's just a convenient assumption that people draw because TSBs are stated to come from Six Paths senjutsu. I'm trying to say that this assumption cannot be drawn without sufficient proof by those arguing for Toneri in this matchup because correlation does not imply causation.

    This is also because Juubi Jins have actually shown to be immune to chakra attacks not containing senjutsu, SIx Paths Senjutsu, or Six Paths Power.

    Those arguing for Toneri therefore have to possess sufficient proof to argue that he can get through Juubi Jins' durability using chakra attacks, which is an important criteria for Toneri's win in this matchup. Unless people arguing for Toneri argue that Toneri can somehow beat Juubito through just taijutsu alone.

    Conveniently assuming that Tenseigan Chakra Mode contains Six Paths senjutsu without sufficient proof just because it comes with TSBs just doesn't fly in this matchup when so much turns on this assumption being true. That's why I said that this matchup is a total joke if this convenient assumption isn't sufficiently proven.

    I can honestly tell you that if that databook page on TSBs had classified TSBs as senjutsu, I would have conceded already, because that is sufficient proof for Toneri managing to get past Juubi Jins' durability using TSBs, which his atttacks make use of. But there's no such classification.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  3. Hi no Ishi

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    It doesn't classify anything as Rikudo Senjutsu really. It just tells us in the text. Repeatedly lol.

    Even the Black Raikiri which is directly stated to have the six power from Obito in isnt marked that way.

    Does that mean it isnt somehow?
    No. You are just ignoring that Naruto directly tells us they have Natural Energy because it makes your argument even sillier.

    And again it's all the info together. You trying to semantically nit pick Japanese to English phrasing doesn't change how many time we are told that they are of the six paths power.

    Thus why you keep ignoring it.
    It is and there is no indication otherwise. We are flat out told and shown that they are Natural Energy by Naruto himself
     
  4. ShinAkuma

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    Ok so let me get this straight.

    45 different forms of evidence tells us TSB's are nature energy/related/etc. The unofficial translation of the databook fails to include this therefore they aren't nature energy?

    :wellshite

    The case is closed for one side of the argument.

    NOT NAMING NAMES
     
  5. Kannon

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    Black Raikiri used by Kakashi was directly stated to contain Six Paths Power. If it wasn't directly stated, I would have said that we can't assume it as well, at least in a matchup thread.

    No, Japanese to English phrasing doesn't explain away TSBs not being classified as Senjutsu by the databook page on TSBs. It's just classified as a Ninjutsu.

    Other jutsus that are Senjutsu based have been classified as Senjutsu. For example, Hashirama's Sage Art: Gate of the Great God.


    I ignored Naruto telling us that TSBs have natural energy because you can't necessarily extrapolate that to Toneri and thus that isn't sufficient proof.

    Problem is that the databook page on TSBs is the same DB page that says that the TSBs comes from having Six Paths senjutsu. If TSB really was intended to be classified as senjutsu, it would have almost certainly been in that databook page as well. It's literally the same page lol.

    And your "45 different forms of evidence" only either comes from statements about Naruto's TSB (which can't necessarily be extrapolated to Toneri) when he has Six Paths Sage Mode, Juubi Jins' TSB (which can't necessarily be extrapolated to Toneri), or are general statements that "those who possess Six Paths senjutsu have TSB" , which is not necessarily the same as "those who possess TSB have Six Paths senjutsu"

    There isn't any conclusive evidence in the "45 different forms of evidence".

    It's fine lol. I don't mind you naming my name tbh.

    "The case is closed for one side of the argument." Stating that the case is closed doesn't mean it is closed lol. I'm saying that for those who are arguing for Toneri in this matchup thread to win, there needs to be sufficient proof of Toneri having either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu or Six Paths Power. Otherwise this matchup just becomes a total joke. Unless those arguing for Toneri to win argue for him beating Juubito using only taijutsu alone.

    And so far the only proof that I have seen that would have sufficed as sufficient proof if it was true is the claim that TSBs are classified as senjutsu (which wasn't even in this thread, by the way). But after checking, I found that that was not true. I would have conceded if it was.

    I did not know about this piece of information (that TSB's weren't classified as senjutsu in the databook page about TSBs) beforehand. I would be fine with conceding if TSBs were actually classified as senjutsu in the databook page about TSB tbh.

    It's not even necessarily about TSB, Six Paths senjutsu and senjutsu lol. As long as anyone has sufficient proof that Toneri has either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu, or Six Paths Power, I'll concede. Because that's what's needed to get past Juubi Jins durability using chakra attacks.

    Just rebutting another one of your points: that the mode doesn't matter. The Uchiha Jinchuriki and Naruto may not be using the same mode, true, but Juubi Jin Madara did say that he possessed both of Naruto's and Sasuke's powers at the same time. That's basically an explicit statement that Juubi Jin Madara possesses Six Paths Senjutsu.

    If Madara had Naruto's power due to being a Juubi Jin and had Sasuke's power due to having the Rinnegan, or even if there is some overlap, Juubito would logically scale to that by virtue of being a Juubi Jin and also having Rinnegan, essentially all the same characteristics as JJ Madara. This is personally what I think anyway.

    But if you don't agree with that, I'm also not averse to the notion that Juubito may not necessarily have Six Paths senjutsu. Because if I'm not wrong, he only explicitly showed that he had Six Paths Power in the manga.

    Basically, I personally believe that Juubito has Six Paths senjutsu because of what I said above, but I'm willing to listen to arguments against as well lol. (Anyway I just found that the DB page for Six Paths Ten Tails Coffin Seal actually states that Juubi Jins have Six Paths senjutsu. So Juubito definitely has Six Paths senjutsu.)

    But JJ Madara definitely possesses Six Paths senjutsu because of what he said about possessing both Naruto and Sasuke's powers.

    As for Toneri, there's really no explicit statements like that that you can scale him to. "Hamura's power" can't be used as sufficient proof because it was almost certainly referring to Toneri having the Tenseigan, the same power which Hamura had.

    The problem is we don't know whether Base Hamura already had Six Paths senjutsu or not. At least many people seem to think so lol, as they place Base Hamura almost on par with Base Hagoromo, who had both Six Paths senjutsu and Rinnegan.

    And Base Toneri or Tenseigan Toneri can't be scaled to Base Hamura if Base Hamura already had Six Paths senjutsu. So "Hamura's power" can't be used as sufficient proof.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  6. Hi no Ishi

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    Except it IS directly stated just like Naruto telling and showing us that TSB are made of Natural Energy in the manga.

    We ARE directly told that they are if the six paths power repeatedly by Naruto and Sasuke as well.

    We ARE directly shown that they can hurt Limbo because of those properties.


    YOU just choose to ignore it.

    Which is bullshit.
    Again we have proof from the other pages that they dont always list things as Rikudo Senjutsu.

    Senjutsu alone almost always has a tag though.


    Again, YOU just choose to ignore it because you have hung your whole argument on it not being listed like that even when we are directly told what they are.

    You fully admit that something can be listed as Ninjutsu, without being labeled as Rikudo Senjutsu in the DB. Even when we know that's what it is.
    So your insistence that it saying Ninjutsu on another Databook page precludes the idea of it being Rikudo Senjutsu even if it's from the same source means exactly shit.
    In what way wouldn't it? Specifically.

    Is there a point where it is suggested that might be made of something different?
    No.

    That's like asking for proof that Sasukes Chidori is also Lightning Release or that Konohamaru's Rasengan is made of chakra.
    It's a baseless suggestion to say that it might be made of something different without that ever being stated or shown.

    We are told what it is. Directly.

    It's on you to prove that other water isnt wet, not everyone else.

    Why won't you read the manga or DB? Its weird.

    Naruto, Obito, and Madara all have six paths Senjutsu. Thus they all have TSB.

    uses Sage of the Six Paths mode for it.

    and Madara use Six Paths Coffin seal.

    Sasuke who has the Six Paths Power but not Senjutsu does not awaken the TSB. Get the picture?

    The freaking mode does not matter. Having Six Paths Senjutsu does. That's all we have ever been told. So that's what it is.


    Hamura has the same freaking power source as Hagaromo btw. They are twins.

    They are both in possession of TSB and flight for the same reasons.

    This shit isnt nearly as complex as your trying to make it. It's a manga for 13 year olds.

    Nor is the author suppose to explain the same ass jutsu over and over when we are already told what the hell they are made of.

    Get over it.
     
  7. Kannon

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    What are you talking about? "Black Raikiri that Kakashi used being directly stated to contain Six Paths Power" does not necessarily scale to other people's Black Raikiri just like "Naruto stating that TSBs contain natural energy" do not necessarily scale to other people's TSB.

    If another person happened to use a Raikiri that was black besides Kakashi, I would also say that we can't assume that just because that person also used a black Raikiri, then that Raikiri contained Six Paths Power. This is pretty obvious lol.

    "You fully admit that something can be listed as Ninjutsu, without being labeled as Rikudo Senjutsu in the DB. Even when we know that's what it is." Now, this is just strawmanning and misrepresentation. Show me where I said that. Like what I told ShinAkuma, problem is that the databook page on TSBs is the same DB page that says that the TSBs comes from having Six Paths senjutsu. If TSB really was intended to be classified as senjutsu, it would have almost certainly been in that databook page as well. It's literally the same page lol.

    "In what way wouldn't it? Specifically.

    Is there a point where it is suggested that might be made of something different?
    No.

    That's like asking for proof that Sasukes Chidori is also Lightning Release or that Konohamaru's Rasengan is made of chakra.
    It's a baseless suggestion to say that it might be made of something different without that ever being stated or shown.

    We are told what it is. Directly."
    Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the mode. Toneri gained TSBs through Tenseigan Chakra Mode. It's just a convenient assumption that people make that Toneri then has Six Paths senjutsu.

    I'm saying that assuming this without sufficient proof just doesn't fly in this matchup.

    "It's on you to prove that other water isnt wet, not everyone else."
    Your water analogy still doesn't work because it's assuming the conclusion in the premise.


    "Why won't you read the manga or DB? Its weird.

    Naruto, Obito, and Madara all have six paths Senjutsu. Thus they all have TSB.

    uses Sage of the Six Paths mode for it.

    and Madara use Six Paths Coffin seal.

    Sasuke who has the Six Paths Power but not Senjutsu does not awaken the TSB. Get the picture?

    The freaking mode does not matter. Having Six Paths Senjutsu does. That's all we have ever been told. So that's what it is.

    Hamura has the same freaking power source as Hagaromo btw. They are twins.

    They are both in possession of TSB and flight for the same reasons."

    Now, this is just a convenient assumption as well, which doesn't fly in a matchup like this. You have to have sufficient proof if you want to use this in a matchup and a lot turns on this assumption being true.

    And actually someone argued that Sasuke has Six Paths Senjutsu lol. I may not personally agree with him
    , but according to him there's a DB statement supporting it. in the Six Paths CT databook page, there is a statement that says that ""It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu". That person is essentially arguing that this statement applies to Sasuke.

    See, not everyone necessarily agrees with your statement "Sasuke does not have Six Paths senjutsu" as well. I'm saying that if you're going to assume something like that in a matchup and a lot turns on it being right, you had better back it up with solid proof lol.

    And Toneri doesn't necessarily scale to Hamura anyway. See my previous post.


    "This shit isnt nearly as complex as your trying to make it. It's a manga for 13 year olds.

    Nor is the author suppose to explain the same ass jutsu over and over when we are already told what the hell they are made of.

    Get over it."
    Then what is the freaking NBD for? Why have discussion about matchups at all if you're just going to conveniently assume things like that in a matchup where a lot turns on it being right? I believe the OP himself actually implied that he wanted this thread to be "definitive".

    if you're just going to conveniently assume things like that in a matchup where a lot turns on it being right, then this matchup thread wouldn't be "definitive' in any sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  8. ARGUS

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    Juubito comfortably beats him

    -- Moon slicing beam was blocked by a chakra imbued fist from BSM 100% uncloaked naruto, last time i checked RSM cloaked naruto was pierced by a sword and was left coughing blood, and a full cloaked RSM naruto avatar was obliterated by momoshilkis TBB, and the far far far superior ashura avatar was obliterated by an attack nowhere even close to moon level, so the notion that this naruto has moon level plus durability is utter nonsense.
    the sword itself was spread larger than the circumference of the entire moon, meaning that only about 0.01% of the actual sword was in contact with the fist of naruto, so we cant just magically decide to equate naruto to moon level plus durability when we have not 1, not 2 but 3 or more instances which show that this naruto isnt that durable, unless we would have some fools trying to discredit those facts but not have the common sense to see that maybe toneris sword isnt all that , or unless peoplle think that this BSM naruto is stronger than adult RSM naruto or ashura avatar naruto which is as nonsensical as it sounds.
    so lets get that notion out of the way,

    -- Hence, becuase of the explanation above, a simple shield made from all TSB would comfortably tank this beam because feats show that this shield is stronger than a chakra fist

    -- physical ability under no metric is even a contest, Juubito has feats of blitzing KCM naruto, KCM minato and eearly EMS sasuke with zero reaction whatsoever, this narutos feats were completely exaggerated by the fact that he was fighting on the moon which has atleast 5 times weaker gravity than the earth. Toneri, nor this naruto have no real speed feats that suggest they are faster than juubito and till this day i have yet to hear a real argument about this besides god tier naruto so fast nonsense,
    Juubito posseses far superior physical strength (breaking a barrier that tanked juubidama), (drop slamming the crap out of BSM avatar and susanoo). and has superior shown speed feats that would result in toneri getting eviscerated, his TSB are also superior based on feats seeing that narutos rasengans were matching toneris TSB whereas a single sheild made from 1 TSB tanked BSM TBB and senjutsu susnanoo arrow with only minor damage

    -- fight ends with juubito laughiung at all of toneris attacks, obliterating toneri in CQC, and eventually either blowing his head open or piercing him with sword of nonoboku, which in this case would perfectly apply given that he isnt fighting naruto and wouldnt be doubtig himself
     
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  9. Kannon

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    Interesting. Never thought about this concept before. Would this mean anything in this matchup? Would the DC of Toneri's GWRE really matter when using it against Juubito? GWRE may not fully apply its force to Juubito even if Toneri hit Juubito with it because only a small part of the sword would come into contact with Juubito's body.

    Not necessarily agreeing with this. Just a thought. (Just in case some people think I'm personally agreeing with this and attack me for it. It's just for the sake of discussion really)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  10. dergeist

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    Juubito stomps fodderneri. The guy was clapped by base KCM punch. Nothing else needs to be said here, tbh.

    As for the one arguing the TSBs hurt Limbo because of 6paths senjutsu. Does he have proof or is he just speculating. Naruto had 6paths senjutsu and he shapes the TSBs, last time I checked they didnt have their own chakra supply so what is their to say Naruto wasn't adding it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  11. WorldsStrongest

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    This is kind of an utter mess

    Expected better of ARGUS

    Post Rikudo 100% Naruto using BSM Chakra fist
    Which is a low end

    Juubito was fucked up by a basic bitch Senjutsu Rasengan

    So what is he like Asura path tier now?

    Yeah I didnt think so :ohlord
    Which simply tells us that Momos attacks are insanely powerful

    Not that Narutos avatar is weak

    Dont get how you arrive at that conclusion as thats blatantly not how a feat works

    Naruto also basically sat on a grenade there and focused all the power of the explosion on himself to save the village
    :drake

    How do you arrive at this conclusion?

    Sasuke ate the Juubis entire power supply (which is directly compared in size to a planet and stated to be "immeasurable" compared to a Country buster like Kurama) and Naruto ate the entire planets nature supply (which...Kinda obvious where Im going here Id hope) and they BOTH shit that entire amp, combined with basically ALL OF THEIR OWN RIKUDO CHAKRA into A SINGLE ATTACK and fired it at each other

    Basically...Naruto put LITERALLY the energy of the entire planet into an attack and Sasuke put the equivalent of an entire planets energy into his attack...And you land on "Weaker than Moon level" with that? Even ignoring the fact they both dumped like 99% of their own Rikudo chakra into that attack, that conclusion makes zero sense.

    Those attacks were easily Moon level based on the sheer size of the amps they used ALONE, theyve been calced and scaled to small planet in fact

    And no...Thats not wank...Toneri, after being WEAKENED by Naruto had enough energy to pull the moon out of orbit and throw it at the moon...Which requires Planetary levels of force...DO you think Ashura Avatar and BPS are weaker than a damaged Toneri without Tenseigan?

    Yeah I didnt think so either
    Its not at all tho

    The man, in BASE while EXHAUSTED took an explosion that burned a hole clean through the entire moon in an instant and suffered zero visible damage...

    Whether you wanna think that lands him at moon level proper is irrelevant, blowing a hole through the moon like that is way beyond anything uubito can dish out thats for sure

    SO no matter what way you slice it or try to downplay it, Juubito is fucked here


    Naruto overpowered the energy behidn the sword and reversed the direction of the slash entirely and halted it...

    The surface area he made contact with is irrelevant...As a matter of fact, having less points of contact with like that would logically equate to less leverage for Naruto if anything...Making it even more impressive :catshrug
    You have 1 actually

    And its a nonsensical outlier and an obvious PIS low end

    I can give you an instance of that same Naruto tanking a Rikudo Chidori and not getting pierced

    Its a low end

    Use your head
    > Cuts the moon in half
    > "Toneris sword isnt all that or youre a fool"

    I mean...Fucking really?

    You ACTUALLY just said that?
    No...Your forced correlation here is just asinine

    In terms of durability...

    Adult Ashura Avatar >= Teen Ashura Avatar >>> Adult Kurama avatar > Teen Kurama avatar > Adult RSM > Teen RSM > Adult/Toneri fight BSM > Adult BM > Adult SM > Adult Base > Fatigued Adult Base > An explosion that blew a hole through the entire moon >>> Juubitos wanked DC feats


    And this is downplaying Naruto and Toneris durability and ignoring the moon slicing feat entirely

    Really all that needs to be said here
    No

    No it fucking wouldnt are you crazy?

    Obitos TSB shell was busted open by a tiny TBB and a Susanoo arrow fron EMS Sasuke and BSM PRE DIKUDO Naruto...

    In no world is it tanking an attack that comfortably split the moon in half
    Not a Post Rikudo, Senjutsu amped, Biju chakra added CES fist it fucking doesnt
    In Toneris favor

    Kinda by default
    All of whom are complete and utter trash in terms of physical attributes to even a BASE Naruto post Rikudo

    And this is proven on several occasions
    And even pretending this headcanon applies at all in the Naruto verse which is never remotely implied?

    As their moon functions a tad different than ours in case you missed the fact people could BREATHE ON IT AND A CIVILIZATION EXISTED THERE?

    Your point doesnt fucking matter

    1/5th of Post Rikudo Naruto is still >>>>>> Anything Juubito has ever fought

    Promise

    Even ignoring the BSM amp...Which Im not doing

    Post Rikudo BSM Naruto >>> 15th Post Rikudo BSM Naruto >>> Base Post Rikudo Naruto >>> 1/5th of Base Post Rikudo Naruto >>> Anything Juubito has ever fought in terms of literally every physical attribute

    Per feats and science in fact

    I know before doing this that a lot of NBD regulars dont like "complicated" middle school science or any number with more than 4 digits, but for the small few who may be interested, and just to prove my point...

    Post Rikudo Narutos speed, is within the Sub Relativistic ranges, for the layman, thats 1-10% of the speed of light, or Mach 8,740 - Mach 87,403

    The fastest character you just cited that Juubito blitzed is KCM Minato, who has a speed in the Massively Hypersonic+ range, or Mach 1000-8000

    Assuming low ends for both characters, and dividing Narutos speed by 5 to account for "moon gravity debuff", Naruto still lands at Mach 1704, over 70% faster than KCM Minato

    So, TLDR, Juubito blitzing Minato doesnt mean shit to Rikudo Naruto
    BASE Naruto was reacting to and fighting guys who were EVEN FASTER than Kinshiki who was forcing Adult Sasuke to use Ameno

    When teen Rinnegan Sasuke was fighting and damn near blitzing JJs FASTER than Juubito
    "God tier Naruto is so fast" is leagues better than anything youve put in this post so far chief

    Its also not something youve given a counter argument to
    No

    No he does not
    He used chakra arms for this

    Thats not "physical strength"

    So moot

    Not even getting into the fact that he used the fact the barrier stretched outward against itself
    He used TSBs for this

    Thats ALSO not "physical strength"

    So this is ALSO moot
    No

    No he has not

    Hes been reacted to and tagged by EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto pre Rikudo, and consistently as well, so its hardly a low end.
    No

    No they are not

    Toneris cut the moon in half

    Juubitos best feats are busting a BSM avatar (which has country level dura) and taking a Juubidama (which has continental DC)

    Toneris best feats are cutting the moon (which has moon level dura and therefore equates to Moon DC)
    Lol
     
  12. WorldsStrongest

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    Post Rikudo BSM

    Not KCM

    When even BASE Post Rikudo has better feats than Juubito

    So you got literally everything here wrong

    Noice
     
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  13. Kannon

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    Which was due to the Senjutsu Rasengan's senjutsu properties. There is still no definitive proof that Toneri possesses either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu or Six Paths Power to hurt Juubito through chakra attacks.

    This concept may apply to Toneri vs Juubito though. If Toneri uses GWRE against Juubito, the surface area of the GWRE that hits Juubito will only be a very small part of the whole GWRE. Wouldn't this then decrease the effective DC of GWRE that Juubito's durability has to deal with?

    Of course, all this is assuming that Toneri has either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu, or Six Paths Power and so GWRE can go through Juubi Jins durability in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  14. dergeist

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    Nope, base Naruto or KCM doesn't have rokudo chakra. That is unless you have a scan to the contrary, only RSM Naruto(distinct eyes) has rokudo chakra. It's called RSM for a reason, he enters the rokudo state when he gets those marks.
    :facepalmed
    Base state of KCM, I thought it was self explanatory when I put KCM after it.

    It took two and the entire alliance to shit on Obito who lost resolve, while Toneri got clapped by one punch. Try and change those facts, before you start fapping a fodder.:bookerskully

    This is what did that fodder in, and this fap claims it was BSM punch:kobeha
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  15. WorldsStrongest

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    This kids blind af
    Yes

    Yes he does

    Thats why he can perform on the same level as Aliens who can pressure Rinnegan Sasuke AND Rinnegan Sasuke himself even in Base albeit at a disadvantage...

    Sasukes entire existence also debunks this asinine head canon

    Kinshiki was keeping pace with Rinnegan Sasuke, Base NAruto keeps up with Fused Momoshiki whos EVEN STRONGER and FASTER than that

    Now...Heres where youre little fanboy mind gets blown

    Ready?

    Fused Momoshiki > Adult Sasuke > Teen Rinnegan Sasuke > 1 Eyed post Shinju Madara > Pre Shinju Madara > Juubito in physical attributes as per feats and statements

    Meaning, whether you wanna attribute it to having "Rikudo chakra in Base" or not...Naruto more than has the feats to match and exceed Juubito, and therefore so does Toneri...Rikudo chakra or not...So even if we pretend youre right, ypure still wrong.

    Try n keep up
    I have multiple scans to the contrary

    Try every scene of Sasuke vs Kinshiki and every scene of Base Naruto vs Momoshiki and Base Naruto vs Sasuke
    No

    Wrong

    Rikudo chakra affects a persons base attributes permanently

    ,
    Yeah and you were wrong

    Cuz it wasnt "the base state of KCM"

    It was also SM
    All of whom are complete and utter fodder to Post RIkudo Naruto, and Juubito himslef is ALSO inferior to Post Rikudo Naruto so this is some irrelevant ass shit if Ive ever seen it

    This is like me saying that Juubito cant solo Zabuza because Juubito got spanked by EMS Naruto and Sasuke and Zabuzas water clone held off Waves arc Naruto and Sasuke...

    This is insanely stupid logic
    No actually he didnt

    He had a long and drawn out fight with Naruto that culminated with a punch

    This is like saying a tired Base Naruto defated Sasukes Biju Perfect Susanoo with a Base Rasengan because thats how the fight ended

    Toneri, after that punch, also GETS BACK UP and NEARLY LAUNCHES THE MOON AT THE EARTH
    You listed no facts

    You vomited complete and utter bullshit with no mind for context or substance

    And then put head canon all over it
     
  16. Kannon

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    Actually, only the moon as a whole has moon level durability (which equates to Toneri having Moon DC as he splits the whole moon using your logic. Don't agree with this but it doesn't matter for the purposes of this part of the discussion). Thus, would this even matter for Toneri vs Juubito? If Toneri uses GWRE against Juubito, the surface area of the GWRE that hits Juubito will only be a very small part of the whole GWRE.

    Wouldn't this then decrease the effective DC of GWRE that Juubito's durability has to deal with? The surface area of the GWRE that hits Juubito if Toneri uses GWRE against him wouldn't be anywhere near to splitting the moon in this case.

    Edit: Of course, again, all this is assuming that Toneri has either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu, or Six Paths Power and so GWRE can go through Juubi Jins durability in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  17. dergeist

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    Ignoring the bullshit, let's get to the main argument. Naruto punching Sasuke up into the sky means f'all since Naruto was out of chakra. That had nothing to do with Rokudo enhancements, even if you wanted to employ that second rate line of argument. That was Naruto's own raw strength time punch and nothing else. If it was as you claim, then every punch Naruto exchanged with Sasuke would've resulted in Sasuke experiencing the same, and he would've been dead long before the fight was over. In other words you don't have a leg to stand on, outside of head canon or course.

    Back to the argument at hand, Naruto doesn't gain access to rokudo chakra outside of RSM states. Those are facts unless you have scans/statements to the contrary. Or statements that he's enhanced even in base by rokudo chakra, even though he can't use it.

    Lists rubbish and then tries to argue it facts, then claims we didn't understand context. You obviously have the delusions or a false narrative painted in your head.:bookerskully

    Try and change those facts, before you let the wank blind you.

    This one armed KCM punch is what took out Toneri, and stans be like no it was a rokudo enhanced punch.:kobeha


    Now that's me done soloing your arse.
     
  18. Kannon

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    Also, the logic that leads to Toneri having Moon DC doesn't even work. Cutting the moon does not equal to busting the whole moon which has moon level durability.

    Edit: I had already said something like that in one of the previous threads about Toneri vs Juubito lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  19. WorldsStrongest

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    He literally cut the moon in half

    So yes it does
    Overcoming the moons GBE when he did it does tho :thumbsup
     
  20. MarF

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    This is getting into OBD talk here, but I'll try to elaborate on this anyway.

    GWRE being ~moon level, comes from the fact that the attack temporarily overpowered the moons GBE, when it moved the two halves of it apart for quite a bit of distance(further than GWRE is wide).

    Simple cutting through the moon would be around multi continent level, which is still above anything Juubito scales to or has performed himself.

    GWRE also scales to Toneri casually moving the moon, which was at small planet level(4,1 zettatons) in the latest accepted calc.


    Busting the whole moon, could give you results far higher than just moon level, depending on how it was destroyed and in which timeframe. For example Piccolo's moon buster in DBZ was calced to be well into small planet level(37 zettatons).



    About Naruto only being hit with a small fraction of GWRE's surface. Toneri used it as a straight attack against him, rather than swinging it downwards in a slashing motion, like he did when he cut through the moon.

    Naruto was running through the attack in a straight line and overpowered it with his condensed cloak.



    When it comes to comparing Toneri to Juubito, none of the above truly matters here for the NBD anyway, if you ask me.

    He has better feats, in both power and hax, compared to Juubito. He also fought a far stronger version of Naruto and only lost due to plot protection for Naruto.

    It's not exactly hard to come to the conclusion of Toneri > Juubito.
     
  21. WorldsStrongest

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    Lol

    Thats not an argument

    Gonna take this as a concession to everything you didnt address then
    Not the only part of the fight I referenced


    Nor was it the important part
    Except for the fact Sasuke has the durability to take the hit

    As he did

    Sooooo
    Minus the fact you addressed less than half my argument

    And the little bit you did address was poorly done
    And as I said earlier, whether you wanna believe Naruto has Rikudo chakra in Base or not is IRRELEVANT

    The fact of the matter is, Rikudo in Base or not, he has the feats putting him on or above Juubitos level regardless

    What you wish to attribute that too I sincerely couldnt give less of a shit about

    Its the end result that matters

    Ive provided literally half a dozen or more and you just literally hand waved them with the following sentence and no counter evidence
    Because youre a shit debater and a moron
    I listed feats

    And direct comparisons between Base Naruto and literally proved > JJ fighters

    You have nothing but the word "rubbish"

    You dont know how to argue anything, at this point youd need to put forth legitmate fucking counter evidence

    Which you have yet to do in a single post so far btw
    Because you dont

    Or else you wouldnt say stupid shit like you have been

    Naruto is obviously Rikudo enhanced still or else he wouldnt be able to throw down with Rikudo tier fighters in Base

    Its not a difficult deduction if you have a brain cell
    Im sure by now I dont need to point out whats stupidly ironic about this bullshit
    No actually it wasnt

    Already went over this

    And you elected to ignore it cuz you have no counter
    Kinda like the other 99% of my post you ignored

    Cuz apparently youre SUPER GOOD at this :ohlord
    It was

    It was a Rikudo enhanced punch

    Because it was from POST Rikudo amp Naruto

    Also, as I said earlier, even if we use your bullshit headcanon of Naruto not having Rikudo chakra unless he uses RSM, it doesnt matter. As BAse Naruto is still God tier regardless of whether or not you buy that he can use Rikudo chakra. Which means, that BSM Punch was an AMPED God tier attack.

    Not "Just a KCM punch" like your dishonest ass is bending over backwards trying to downplay it to be
    HA

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHH



    Come back when you understand even the basics of this series like how to correctly look at a simple goddamn feat :rotfl
     
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  22. Kannon

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    True, but then it depends on what is your definition of Moon level and what calcs you use. From what I see, different forums have different definitions and thresholds. It's fine if you use the OBD definitions and thresholds for this as long as you can provide reasons.

    Yes, it doesn't really matter.

    My main point in this thread isn't about Toneri having Moon level DC or not.

    It's about TSBs being necessarily indicative of Six Paths senjutsu which people arguing for Toneri in this thread have not really sufficiently proven imo.

    This is important because no matter how high Toneri's DC is, he can't get through Juubi Jins' durability using chakra attacks if he doesn't possess either Six Paths Senjutsu, senjutsu or Six Paths Power.

    It's not even necessarily just about TSBs and Six Paths senjutsu. It's also fine if people arguing for Toneri can prove that Toneri has any one out of the three: Six Paths Senjutsu, senjutsu or Six Paths Power. Because that's what's needed to get through Juubi Jins durability using chakra attacks.
    Unless people arguing for Toneri are arguing that Toneri can beat Juubito using just tajiutsu.

    Edit: I have another question which you may be able to answer since you seem well versed in OBD stuff. Would Toneri using GWRE to hit Juubito require Juubito to have so-called moon level durability to tank it? Because only a small part of the GWRE will be hitting Juubito. And that small part of GWRE may not scale to moon level.

    In other words, would the DC of Toneri's GWRE really matter when using it against Juubito? GWRE may not fully apply its force to Juubito even if Toneri hit Juubito with it because only a small part of the sword would come into contact with Juubito's body.

    Of course, all this is assuming that Toneri has either Six Paths senjutsu, senjutsu, or Six Paths Power and so GWRE can go through Juubi Jins durability in the first place.

    Ok then I have no problems with accepting that Toneri has Moon level DC. But not because of the first reason, but because of the second one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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