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The bankai increase in relation to Ichigo

Discussion in 'Bleach' started by Giorno Giovannax, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    I don't know if that question has already been answered but anyway. My question is this? We know bankai increases the zanpunkto's power 2 to five times, but 95% of the time, the zanpunktos become big like Byakuya says. However, Ichigo had his bankai compressed into a small sword, so my question is, does the bankai power-up affect both Ichigo's power and speed, thus making him 2 to five times stronger and faster because he compressed it or he's just really fast.
     
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  2. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    Ichigo's speed powerup is the result of his Bankai being compressed, along with the increase in power. It gives him a speed which exceeds that of Shunpo, and is what allowed him to deflect Byakuya's Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's individual blades, and what allowed him to almost one-shot Byakuya directly after he went Bankai.

    As for power, I guess its simply just a bigger power increase in a smaller package. Instead of a regular Getsuga Tenshou, hes got a more powerful Kuroi (Black) Getsuga Tenshou which appears to have more destructive power than the original.

    So for Bankais in general, the power increases from say, a rifle to a cannon. For Ichigo, it seems like he has the same power of a cannon in a pistol form; smaller than the original "form", but with an equivalent power increase of a "regular" Bankai.

    At least, I think that's how its supposed to go...
     
  3. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    Since my net was going screwy I don't think it registered my post, so BUMP.
     
  4. Aokiji Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't increase his power at all, he's just 10X stronger. He can fight 10 times better. His power has just been compressed. He has still the same reiatsu. With power, it's like the powerlevel of dbz. It's the ability to make damage.
     
  5. Surreal Fucking...BOOOOO!

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    Yea, so far it's working out great for him.
     
  6. Talone SPARTAN-117

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    I would think that Strength and Power and hand in hand in this case....but I don't plan on starting a huge debate on that.

    I believe Reiatsu is affected by Bankai, or it can be anyway. In Ikkaku's case, his reiatsu/attack power increased with his Bankai.

    The thing is, you can't have high power or strength and low reiatsu. It simply doesn't fit. They are both connected, or one and the same.

    EDIT: Reiatsu IS a reflection of strength/power of the spirit. How else could Ichigo have broken out of a Kidoh on his own before even becoming a Shingami? Rukia remarked that he had an unusually high amount of spirit energy (i.e., Reiatsu); she thought it was completely unusual for a human's spirit energy to break a Binding Kidoh (which she cast on him in the first episode/chapter)
     
  7. spaZ d[o_0]b

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    Isnt ichigos attact power kinda low for his bankai?
     
  8. SiSL The Hun

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    From what I get, just being small-form, Zangetsu conserves large number of reiatsu to other abilities, rather than show-off big shape.
     
  9. ez Jesus Christ

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    I don't know how many times i've typed this(not to you sworddancer). I think we've had proof that bankai defintely increases Ichigo's power 5-10x

    First, Ichigo uses his shikai on Doledoni. What happens? it gets canceled out.

    Yordey
    Yordey
    Yordey

    Bankai Ichigo uses getsuga tenshou on Grimmjow, he gets a nice scar from his face down to across his upper body. And how ironic is it that Grimmjow gets that nice scar right after commenting using the usual misconception that his bankai only increases speed.

    I think it's fairly obvious that there is a huge power difference.

    Yordey
    Yordey
    Link removed
    Link removed
     
  10. TurboCod Member

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    Its argueable whether it gets more power. I for one think it does.

    My theory is that his bankai has more reiatsu in a smaller package. Because it is more tightly packed it has more destructive power. Basically reiatsu is proportional to power so a huge sword will have a lot of destructive power over the entire thing. But a smaller sword with the same amount of reiatsu will have the same overall destructive power and therefore more power per square inch.
     
  11. snakeye123 Member

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    I think that it's mainly in speed, as that can't be 'learnt' as in skills - it's kind of an ability that once achieved, its 'there'. He still has amazingly high reiatsu - even Ulq said that its (sometimes) above him, but that was admitidly when Shirosaki was battling and almost emerging. So the potential is there, for strength at least, but I think Ichigo has reached his speed potential. (unless there is another big powerup for him, Plot-No-Jutsu...)

    but What Ichigo is missing is technique and control when coupled with speed - if he can 'flash' behind some enemies, then with the correct control and techniques he surely could beat/harm them instantly. But with this much-needed control then potentially his speed could increase.

    ie. the only explination for his bankai speed is that his bankai is compressed and allows this immense speed - but what if it isnt just speed but all skills. as in if he EVER learns/understands/can perform other skills then they too will be enhanced thru his bankai, rather than just speed increase...
     
  12. jonat3 Active Member

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    You guys keep confusing REIRYOKU (spiritual ENERGY) and REIATSU (spiritual PRESSURE). There's a fundamental difference between the two.

    Ichigo is NOT compressing his reiatsu. That's a contradiction in terms. That's like stating that the water pressure in a firehose is being compressed . Only the water itself is being compressed, not the water pressure. By compressing the amount of water in a smaller space, as a result the water pressure increases. THAT'S how it works.

    Above principle applies to Ichigo as well. What Ichigo is doing is compressing his REIRYOKU. As a result, the energy density (or REIATSU) of his sword increases as well. That is why not only speed increases with Ichigo's bankai, it's his reiatsu as well. You also could have figured out that his reiatsu must have increased since the manga seems to imply that speed is connected to the amount of reiatsu you have.

    In short, Ichigo's bankai increases his speed, the reiatsu of his sword AND the reiatsu of his getsuga (which is the black getsuga).
     
  13. TurboCod Member

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    Didn't know that. I thought Reiatsu was spiritual energy. Now I'll know better in future. Thanks for clearing that up :amuse
     
  14. SiSL The Hun

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    Basically Reiryoku is "mana", Reiatsu is "defense / power modifier"?
     
  15. ez Jesus Christ

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    When was anything refered to reiryoku in bleach? :headscrat

    REIRYOKU is supposed to be the energy souls gain once people become souls or are just born with it.

    reiatsu is the energy used by shinigamis to fight against each other, by way of their zanpaktous
     
  16. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    I know that reiatsu is spiritual pressure, but I wasn't aware that a term for a spiritual energy had been introduced. However, I'll trust jonat3 that the term is indeed used with relation to this manga, and I'll refer to reiryoku and reiatsu separately in the future.
     
  17. jonat3 Active Member

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    The word reiryoku hasn't been used alot, that's true. I can only recall it being used two or three times in the manga (the last time was with the super Hiyori walker). But try to use some sense. Just look at the ENGLISH translations of the words reiryoku and reiatsu. That should make the relationship pretty clear.

    Also, you should pay attention to how Zaraki demonstrates reiatsu. Ichigo's sword couldn't cut Zaraki, because his sword had a lower energy pressure than Zaraki's skin. Reiatsu is a term of PRESSURE (which involves density as well), it's not a term of energy. It's like how kg/cm2 is a term of pressure, but not a term of mass. Realize the distinction.
     
  18. Giorno Giovannax Connor >>>> Superbitch Prime

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    But then my question is, the five times power-up of bankai, does it make Ichigo five times faster than shunpo itself? We know the power is there, but does the speed get the same power-up (It may be obvious but I wanna make sure)
     
  19. jonat3 Active Member

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    Not sure actually. It depends on what Kubo exactly means with 5 times stronger. If it means that one can fight 5 enemies at once that are as strong as his shikai mode, then you don't have to have a specific attribute 5 times as strong. By being just 2 times faster than normal, you can already fight 5 enemies at once IMO.
     
  20. ez Jesus Christ

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    Yeah i missed the difference between reiryoku and reiatsu. reiryoku determens how long one can stay in a powered up state, whether it be bankai or vaizard form. At least that's what i've gathered from re-reading the hiyori walker chapter. Thanks for point that out.

    Well i'm not sure if it makes him 5x faster than shupo(although that would be my guess) but before going in bankai against Byakuya, he could not shunpo away from Byakuya's bankai. When in bankai he easily evaded the bankai(and could still go faster.) After that Byakuya used his hands which made it 2/3x faster and he still evaded it mostly as well as deflecting them all. So it's probably 5x if you take into account that he dodged the bankai that was being controlled w/o the hands.
     
  21. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

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    i think it primarily makes him faster but his black version of getsuga tenshou is far more powerful
     
  22. Hiruma The King has Come!

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    His sword itself didn't gain extra cutting power, he got a stronger GT and obviously more speed but his blade probably didn't gain much attack power, if any.
     
  23. Solar Bankai In a War against Fail

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    Nothing actually technically increases, IMO. My theory for all Bankai is this:
    Yes they make you 5-10x stronger, but this doesnt necessarily mean reiryoku/reiatsu has increased. Its more to do with the fact that the true form of the Zanpakuto makes use of the reiatsu you have - as a result, Shinigami tend to power up before using Bankai.
    This makes a fair amount of sense, because if Bankai increased your actual reiatsu 5-10x, then Aizen's comment on how he basically has 2x average Captain level doesnt seem so special - the point of that was not to show "hah, with bankai i am invincible" (even if he is) but was instead to show that he was one of the only people who could use the Hogyoku whilst it was sleeping - there are only two other characters that come to mind who have base reiatsu >= Aizen Sousuke.

    Anyway, Ichigo's bankai works like this - the abiltiy of his Zanpakuto that manifests through his reiatsu, rather than beng the massive beast/power expected, instead compresses all his power into Tensa Zangetsu. His reiatsu does not increase in Bankai but is instead at its max (non-vizard anyway) to start with.
    Speed increases due to this compressed power. The compressed power means thaat Ichigo can move at extreme speed, using all his reflexes to the maximum potential - this is due to the fact that the power is more precise and specific. Unfortunately, this is also very damaging on the body, so it will take its toll. Hollow Ichigo managed to move Ichigo again, despite paralysis, because his reiatsu doubled due to Shirosaki's presence. Reiatsu = power, non-flash step speed (except in case of Ichigo Bankai) and damage soak. These went up, and the body could move. Whenever Shiroskai was removed, Ichigo could move again because the reiatsu had been present to move his body, his body was working again irrespective of Shirosaki's presence. From this ive decided that, if reiatsu is supplemented, it will restore vitality and then linger as power/damge soak etc, if its removed the added benifits would go but the vitality remains. Hideously complex. Ichigo then put all his remaining reiatsu into a black getsuga(we know he still has a fair amount left because his bankai is showing no signs of deteriorating, so clearly his bankai is quite dangerous - it can kill the user before the user is actually injured enough to make the bankai fade through injury).
    Finally, the Black Getsuga. This one is easier, thankfully. If you dropped a bucket of water on someone, they wouldnt take much damage. If you pressurised that same amount of water and blasted it at someone, you could do a lot more damage. Black Getsuga to Base Getsuga works using the same principal.
    Hope that all makes sense, but it may not.
     
  24. blacklusterseph004 ah, made you look ...

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    Jonat's explanation on the terminology clears this up actually. Thanks again to Jonat, it's a good thing he pointed it out. In terms of the difference in spirit energy and pressure, then the release of the bankai would definitely increase the reiatsu. It seemed to me in regards to Ichigo's speed, that he merely sacrificed size for speed, not power.

    Remember also that Isshin told Grandfisher that if all captain level shinigami had zanpakuto's proportional to their reiatsu, then they would be swinging skyscrapers. It seems that in most bankai's, this it what captain levels do to utilize their full power (skyscraper-like zanpkuto) Ichigo giving up that size for speed makes sense because he can retain I suppose the necessary compression to keep max mobility.

    How much his speed increases is still hard to say though. As other's have mentioned, calling someone strong doesn't have to scale all their stats. I believe it's the stat combination that determines how strong some is. Ichigo's stats in size anyway seem to biased speed. On the other hand, we have seen how shinigami with their limiters removed gain a speed multiplier. We can't determine that for Ichigo though, because he hasn't yet shown how much of his total bankai or visored reiatsu he commits to speed boosting.
     
  25. jonat3 Active Member

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    Actually, there are several translation regarding that quote about twice the reiatsu. Another translation merely states greater than captain level reiatsu, instead of twice the reiatsu. I wouldn't trust that translation too much.

    Anyways, i get your theory. Your theory is that the EFFICIENCY increases, right? But for someone to be 5-10 times more powerful, atleast reiryoku OR reiatsu OR both must have increased. It isn't possible to be 5 times more powerful without one of these attributes being increased. I could go at length as to why this is the case, but i'll just use Byakuya's bankai as an example, since that is the simplest way.

    Byakuya's shikai has about a thousand petals or so, right? His bankai has about a million, maybe even more. Let's suppose that reiryoku stays the same in bankai mode as in shikai mode. That would mean that Byakuya has to use the same amount of energy he used to infuse a thousand petals and try to infuse a million petals with it. As a result, the attack power (or reiatsu) of one bankai petal would be a thousand times weaker than the attack power of a single shikai petal. He wouldn't be able to kill a fly with such a bankai.

    So at the VERY LEAST bankai DOES increase reiryoku. And it's been hinted at that bankai increases reiatsu as well, though i think not so much as is the case with Ichigo's bankai. Since it's a near certainty that bankai increases reiryoku, if Ichigo is compressing his increased reiryoku in a single katana, it's only common sense that the reiatsu of his bankai sword must increase. Afterall, the english translation of reiatsu, is spiritual PRESSURE. If you compress energy, it's only natural that energy pressure should increase. And the way Zaraki demonstrated reiatsu, the translation is pretty much spot on. That was a classic demonstration comparable to coal trying to scratch diamond (diamond having a greater density than coal).
     
  26. Solar Bankai In a War against Fail

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    Well, the way i look at it, Bankai and Shikai are less to do with the user, more to do with the Zanpakuto, which has its own power. When Shikai is used, its a weaker manifestation, whereas Bankai is the full manifestation of power (except with Zangetsu, which doesnt follow the same rules).
    Anyway, with Shikai your reiatsu isnt necessarily at its max - most times characters use Bankai, there is some charge up prior to it, which leads me to believe that their reiatsu just must be maxed out. Interestingly, this didnt apply to Byakuya, except when he used Senkei, the "true form of sebonzakura".
    Its a pity it hasnt been properly explained. I get what you are saying, and it makes sense that reiatsu should increase, the only problem in this case is that it said 5-10x, which cannot be possible. For example, if Grimmjow is an adjuca (ie possiblt somewhat better than lt shinigami, at best Captain level prior to arrancar) then, if Ichigo got even the minimum 5x reiatsu boost Grimmjows hierro would never block it. But Ichigo proved his reiatsu in Bankai is higher than Byakuya's when he destroyed the Imperial White Sword - so if thats the case, neither got even a 5x reiatsu boost (do you see what i mean?)
    Its more to do with the Zanpakuto's showing their power, which is why i dont think Ichigo has the best version of Bankai yet, considering the power Zangetsu proved it has, and the relative, well, patheticness of the current Bankai.
     
  27. SiSL The Hun

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    Ichigo possibly not using his bankai efficiently yet in other words like Byakuya said, "not mastered it yet"

    Not to mention, one of frigging moments of him was cutting Yammi's arm through his steel skin armor with EASE which even led Ulquirra to think his reiatsu is more than Ulquirra himself.
     
  28. Solar Bankai In a War against Fail

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    Yammi is an idiot though who doesnt seem to have a clue...he doesnt deserve to be an Espada. Anyway, he seems like a weak Adjuca, whilst Grimmjow is strong. Grimmjow is better for the comparison because it shows that he cannot recieve a massive reiatsu boost.
     
  29. jonat3 Active Member

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    Actually, i also do not believe that reiatsu increases by 5-10 times during bankai. If this were the case, releasing bankai would be enough to make evry opponent sink to his knees just with reiatsu alone. What i believe bankai increases the most is reiryoku. Reiatsu increases slightly, because the zanpakutou is being forced to increase in size, because of the increased energy. In fact, Ichigo's bankai is the only bankai where i believe the reiatsu increases considerably, because that's how his bankai works. It's pretty much hinted in the manga that speed is related to reiatsu. The greater the amount of reiatsu you have, the greater your speed will be. By artificially increasing his reiatsu, he can thus increase his speed.
     
  30. SiSL The Hun

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    That is why it is introduced as power gap.

    Let's say Sword X does Y damage to an Z level reiatsu opponent.

    Let say, if another opponent has Z*2 level reiatsu. Sword X does Y/(modifier*0.5) damage to that opponent... Imagine it just like RPG rules of level / skill difference. If your slashing skill is low, you can't land an attack to an opponent even his avoidance is low compared to his level.

    Reiatsu works as damage / defense multiplier. That is very reason Ichigo could not cut Kenpachi at first. Zangetsu even more reiatsu multiplier (magnifier) as we already know from Getsuga Tenshou.

    So only Reiatsu increase by Bankai explains why GT in bankai is far more damaging than GT in shikai.
     
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