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The Demi-Fiend enters Dark Souls

Discussion in 'Outskirts Battledome' started by ThanatoSeraph, Sep 13, 2017 at 4:50 AM.

  1. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    because I'm tired of spacebattles ignoring my threads

    Same deal as the thread I made over there, this is the Demi-Fiend ignoring all cosmic feats or compendium entries. Just purely the other superhuman shit he did throughout the story.

    He starts DS1 at the same place as the Chosen Undead and has to take the same path through.

    Can he do it?
     
  2. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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  3. Fang Titan

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    Punch people till they die
     
  4. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    I made a post listing a few feats off the top of my head over on spacebatlles



    Basically ignoring all wider context and cosmic shenanigans, stat-wise you're looking at someone who can dish out and take attacks equivalent to Baal Avatar's summoning explosion, and who can react to stuff probably ~the speed of sound.

    And also many many many times stronger than mook demons who can catch 30 ton train carriages and move a boulder that would weigh thousands of tons (though the latter is over an unspecified timeframe) if you take cross-game scaling into account. Haven't figured out if this violates the spirit of my thread tho yet

    There's also instant death exorcism hax that mayyyyybe attacks the soul? But I don't feel like fully committing to any one interpretation of hama/mudo yet

    His primary attacks are physical, but he can also attack at range with special phyiscal moves or magic attacks

    there are probably more feats that I'm missing but I think the Baal Avatar summoning sequence is probably one of the more impressive examples

    who knows maybe someone can point something out I've missed
     
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  5. Tommyboi3shura New Member

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    Let's see, other feats I can think of that aren't cosmic in nature (in other games)
    Fodder angel doing this:

    Shiva's Pasupata beam:

    The destruction of the firmament:

    (as well as putting it up to block an ICBM)
    As well as Shesha putting a hole in it:

    There's also the potential lightning timing stuff in Strange Journey.
    There's the Fire attack's death animation showing them getting Vaporized in SMT4
    I'm guessing the sun flight in DDS2 is also out, but linking anyway:

    Ice skills generate a decent ammount of ice out of nothing:

    The skill Apocalypse does some damage:

    there's Raidou fighting a mech battleship thing:

    Which in cutscenes is shown as p big:
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017 at 10:42 AM
  6. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    o shit right forgot to mention that ICBM stuff is out too

    i think i was gonna originally put that in the op over on spacebattles but was thinking that nocturne would have been the only source at that time so it wouldn't be necessary

    that shesa feat reminded me i was originally going to do this thread with shesa fighting another kaiju before i remembered how much i don't like apocalypse

    nice find with Ahriman's apocalypse skill tho, that's definitely relevant to the thread no matter what
     
  7. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Moderator

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    I believe Dark Soul hits star level currently. Disregarding his crazier stuff, can he contend with that?
     
  8. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    It has the potential (the whole First Flame = Sun thing and all), but we're (specifically @Nighty the Mighty and I) kind of procrastinating on discussing Dark Souls cosmology
     
  9. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Moderator

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    Oh so it isn't a guarantee as of now? Where are they without it?
     
  10. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    The only guarantee is the connection with the first flame and the sun. Its combing over the lore and games to see if they suggest the cosmology isn't able to be assumed like our own that needs fleshing out.

    They're megatons otherwise, though possibly higher given one of the children of Manus is suggested to be holding back the Apocalypse in DaS2.

    Let me dig up the relevant quotes and links for you, one second
     
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  11. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    for reference is basically a bit feat that scales to many bosses and NPC in DaS1 starting with the children of the Witch of Izalith

    is the best overall feat from the games as shown in the intro cutscene.

    a collection of accolades through the 1st two games with the respective apocalypse quote listed below

     
  12. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Moderator

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    And with 1.6 mach reaction speed?
     
  13. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    Around that, though Dark Souls 3 introduced the potential for some massively hypersonic feats with some cloud to ground lightning

    Just haven't gotten around to checking it out, so don't consider it for this thread
     
  14. Fang Titan

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    Demi-Fiend even ignoring powerscaling beat down someone like King Frost and Frost Ace early on in Nocturne who are at least planetary range fuckers who can freeze the planet over.
     
  15. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    I mean yeah if we're taking all feats the Demi-Fiend blows away the entire Souls universe in a single hit

    But the gimmick of this thread is I wanna see how far he can go while very much restricting his feats to a... certain ridiculous standard that I definitely have the feel of but don't know quite how to articulate

    beyond "the interpretation of someone who wants to downplay the verse and obstinately ignores any cosmic shenanigans and claims the compendium is worthless"

    so I'm disregarding compendium feats just for the sake of this thread

    I dunno about this calc

    For starters, if the game gives you nothing to work with, 1 metre depth is pretty arbitrary. It seems much shallower than that at the edge of the lavafall for instance. Though the fact the boss fell into it is... Could you do something about the boss falling back into the lava to give you anything more concrete? Or did I misread that cutscene on that front?

    Additionally, I dunno if I'd say 80% was turned back to stone, it looked more like 60 percent or so to me. But maybe there's a better perspective I'm missing there.

    Is there any indication of how long this took though? Calling them storms and all, and the general cinematics make me think it could have taken place over a very long period of time, which would reduce the combat-relevant energy level significantly.

    Still, if those two feats stand up, I underestimated Dark Souls, might have to allow for ICBM and crossover feats to even the scales. Though that might end up tipping things in the other direction.
     
  16. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    Someone (chaos :caticon ) could calc alsanna's power but iunno if worf

    Similar calc could be done for gwyndolin mayhaps though that would be quite speculative
     
  17. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    I was (coincidentally) talking about this with someone the other day who suggested that the sun was actually a miracle of Gwyn's

    they didn't explain to me how that would work exactly but I thought it could be a relevant point of discussion
     
  18. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    It's not really any different as far as assumptions go compared to our general practice with crater depth for when we can't determine it

    Hell, given the surface area, how I did this compared to our guideline with craters is far more conservative in the first place *shrugs*

    Recall, we resort to diameter/4 for crater depth most of the time. What I did here was just keep the surface area to volume ratio 1 to 1.

    There's no way to actually even gauge it from there

    I got a headache from how long I stared at the shit trying to get anything from it

    Though we can always ask @Nighty the Mighty for a second opinion as she's probably played this game as much as I have over the years at this point

    Ceaseless doesn't fall into the lava, he falls into a pit right next the lava fall

    Said pit actually leads to the arena where you fight the Centipede Demon IIRC

    Its definitely closer to 80% than 60%

    Not that I really feel like splitting hairs over such a minor surface area difference

    We've been using the duration of the spell for years to determine how long it took

    They last 3-5 seconds according to me of 4 years ago in the comments section

    IIRC, that's about as long as they lasted in the Bed of Chaos fight too, so the duration for her casting in the cinematic shouldn't be any longer in particular

    Probably, but you're not really to blame

    They're not particularly flashy and its all gameplay most of the time

    Though Dark Souls 2 has Alsanna she conjured over Eleum Loyce to work with too and then you've got all the storms conjured by the latent energy of various fuckers like the and conjured

    Also where the potential for lightning speed comparisons comes from, especially the Gael fight

    Additionally, even fair low tier shit can do shit like here

    Go for it, the purpose is to try and make a balanced thread in the first place

    And if kiddo and I ever actually bother to pin down Dark Souls cosmology, shit can only escalate anyway
     
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  19. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    mmm, I've never been a loremaster or the like, so is Dark Souls' cosmology similar to our own? Or is it more mythologised, what with the general interplay of fire and dark and taking place in a world that is already different to ours on that front at least

    only way i've ever been able to play soulsborne has been when I've chilled at my friends' place so I can't comment too much myself, having never done a full and proper playthrough :catprone

    Yeah but this isn't a crater, and there is more to suggest that depth in general for craters iirc, given their general shape and the way they normally form in that regard

    but I actually have

    mmm, I kinda assumed the scale based on my general feel from perspective, but the flow at the edge didn't seem that deep just from its behaviour and general comparison to the rocks around it

    can't exactly pinpoint what gives me that feeling tho :hmm

    if you can walk around down there maybe there's something from scaling from the outcrops of rock next to the edge?

    idk

    Well there's the missing context. Damn. Would have made finding the depth a lot easier.


    Mmm, reason I was quibbling over something so relatively minor is that depending on the comparison I could find to Baal Avatar's summoning explosion, it could in theory be comparable to this feat, if you had overestimated it a bit.


    ... but I'm having trouble finding a comparison I'd be comfortable with

    I'm missing the reasoning as to why you'd think this though. Do you know the spells were cast with the same level of strength? Are they always cast with the same level of strength? Can casting time vary at all? Do the multiple casters affect this metric at all?


    Eh, I do fine with stuff like that tho.

    It's more the fact that I only have passing familiarity with it, not enough to do a feat comb.

    Those are pretty neat,

    Also where the potential for lightning speed comparisons comes from, especially the Gael fight[/QUOTE]

    Pretty neat, seems like it'd be hard to get an energy figure for tho


    I remember that feat yeah

    Seems fairly comparable to the Apocalypse attack linked up above, but ironically a fair bit lesser than the angel in that promotional video


    Eh, I'll see how this conversation goes and allow those feats after I sort out what's going on with the lava/pyromancy

    I'll probably not allow scaling from the nuclear arsenal of strange journey because uh....

    I'll just link you the that were completely ignored and let the size of the fireballs do the talking

    Justify it by saying we technically don't know how the Demi-Fiend would match up to Mem Aleph/her being in a different game/unknown mechanics, I'm role playing someone who'd do that kind of thing anyway by making this thread :distracted
     
  20. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    @ThanatoSeraph I'll get back to you sometime tomorrow

    Need to get up in 6 hours to chaperone RAs for a few hours then work on some more of a paper on Trauma Informed Care *shrugs*
     
  21. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    Very much a solid no on that one

    the exact nature of it is murky but

    >archtrees seem to be holding up the material world above somehow
    >sun appears to be tied in some way to the first flame if not Gwyn himself (the sun in anor londo straight up disappears if you break Gwyndolin's illusion and there's a supposition that this was meant to be the case in the entire game world but engine limitations may have stopped them - second part isn't solid evidence since it's not in the actual game at least anymore but interesting to note)
    >blah blah stuff about eternal/unending night, could be hyperbolic poetic language, might be literal considering the above
    >the entirety of dark souls III is about the world imploding, kingdoms warp closer/compress together
    >fucked up shit happens to the sun halfway through
    >sun seems to be tethered to the earth somehow in one of the das3 endings
    >ringed city dlc displays the nature of the end of the world sort of

    basically it's hard to say for certain things like

    1. is gwyn responsible for the sun
    2. how big is the sun

    and so on

    but we do know that the cosmology itself is very much not a "planet revolving around a star" sort of situation, as you said it's highly symbolic/mythological in nature.
     
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  22. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    Kiddo pretty much covered it for you

    Its more the point that we do this for a number of kinds of volume calcs when we can't discern the 3rd dimension

    I'm not saying its perfect, there's margin for error both above or below the figure I produced, but its the best I can do when there's not actual way to gauge the true depth.

    How can you tell depth based on the flow? And comparison to the rock? Its not translucent like water, it could be deeper than what I gauged or have no depth at all.

    I was hoping to see something as the magma cooled, but then I realized that was stupid because the depth didn't change. It was a liquid becoming a solid, not liquid becoming a gas.
    Neither can I, and I stared at the shit way longer than I think I should have ever needed to :lmao

    Nadda

    We're lucky we even get the texture as we do probably frankly.

    Would be nice, probably would have been beyond 1 meter too

    So long as the difference isn't like 5-10 times I don't see why you can't compare them *shrugs*

    We leave room for human error in this shit

    What we do with calcs merely serves to trim the range of power a feat can be speculated to hold, its not a fixed figure *shrugs*

    Bed of Chaos is just the Witch of Izalith's Lord's Soul gone out of control because she believed she could use it to recreate the First Flame

    Don't see why the Chaos Storm it casts would be be weaker than the Quelana uses which is compared to the very Fire Storms they weaved in the war with the Dragons per item description. Duration is never shown to differ, Chaos Storm itself would be the Firaja to Fire Tempest's Firaga/Fira too if you're into FF comparisons.

    That's fair

    For the storms or the lightning timing?

    Because you're probably right about the former

    Sure I could do something with it though

    Latter I wouldn't be getting a yield for as its speed though

    Will take a look later then.

    That's all fair enough then

    Role playing who exactly though? :hmm
     
  23. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    yeah but we shouldn't do that :catblink

    well

    or we should at least look for the lowest possible measurement it could be


    it's to do with the position where it flows over the edge in comparison to the surrounding rock, and comparing that to just my mental intuition of fluid dynamics, stuff like honey and the like

    though now that I think of it that would only guarantee the depth at the edge in any case, as it's possible the lava itself would be in very deep pools

    so forget all that I guess :catprone

    I don't know about no depth at all though, if it was shallow enough I feel like in the natural course of its flow over rock it would leave bare patches


    Well yeah, but that's why I was probing this calc. Because as it stands right now, an 80 metre "fireball" of unknown mechanism, which is what I've roughly estimated Baal Avatar's summoning explosion to be, isn't really enough to be comparable to that feat, but if it was a bit lower, it could potentially be so, due to the whole margin of error situation.

    The issue I have there is that while the comparison is made, it's still fairly vague in terms of how they would relate to each other. It only resembles, and while that's significant in a minimalist game like Dark Souls, it still doesn't necessarily mean that they would resemble each other in power

    Like if you take the visuals as worth anything, the aoe alone would suggest that many more attacks of the like would be required to see the destruction implied in the opening cutscene

    Hence me asking if it was possible for the spells to vary in power depending on how much the caster wants to put into it

    On that note is there anything suggesting that it was just one casting that they used to do this?



    yeah for the storms, hence me saying yield :maybe





    no actual person, just a certain style of debating, with someone who has already decided that smt has no cosmic power
     
  24. lol 4th dimension reiatsu Well-Known Member

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  25. MatthewSchroeder Well-Known Member

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    A better fight would be SMT Quetzalcoatl vs Dark Souls.

     
  26. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

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    Are you implying I didn't try? :hmm

    Anything I tried to do to get a measure of the 3rd dimension would have been just as arbitrary as defaulting to a meter *shrugs*

    I don't like it any better, but at least its more or less standardized

    Would be fair enough, but as you noted

    Thus
    Fair enough

    Don't know enough about fluid dynamics to really say honestly

    Fair enough

    Quelana was one of the people alongside the Witch of Izalith to be using those Storms in the intro

    Why?

    Especially when the ones casting the spells are the ones that were doing the feats from the intro cutscene

    I can't even fathom how much memory and processing power a to scale casting in the game engine would even take, especially with how poorly shit magnitudes smaller like Blighttown lagged

    And even so, AOE isn't even something we generally appeal to, especially when the casting party is part of the group that was part of the bigger feat.

    Nah, its still much like FF magic where you have a baseline level of power to cast and the rest of the power is determined by the strength of one's soul

    Top that off with someone like Quelana having been part of the feat the calc is based on, the question strikes me as moot, though I failed to provide you the full context to get that

    So my bad

    You could call it either way, but nothing about the scene really suggests it was multi cast

    Bearing in mind, I just focused on a lone arch tree where about a dozen are long gone and the rest of the place reduced to slag and ash

    Circumstantial, but potentially narratively significant, is the fact that each attack of the Lords shown in the intro were demonstrations of one instance of their (and in the case of Gwyn's showcase, his knights) power

    Nito used his Miasma once on screen, Gwyn and his Knights each cast Sunlight Spear/Lightning Spear once, and Seath crushed the scales of his breathen with his grip once on top of a mountain of their corpses. Concluding the feat from the witch and her children was a similar showcase based on the other 3 is loose, but still useful, as far as a connection goes to paint the picture

    Figured I'd ask given you only said this at the part I was discussing speed :maybe

    Sounds fun

    Sounds familiar

    Like "mortals with swords" familiar from a fossil of an era before :hmm
     
  27. MatthewSchroeder Well-Known Member

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    Surprised people forgot Kuzuryu destroying a mountain.
     
  28. ThanatoSeraph By Heaven's Decree

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    maybe a nitpick but while those are some impressive explosions, no mountains are destroyed in the cutscene

    now that you bring it up though

    does the world map change after that or something? i seem to remember it doing so

    so that would be potentially relevant

    again unsure about whether allowing scaling from other games violates the spirit of the thread, but definitely relevant in case I want to do something like this again in the future, so thanks

    @ChaosTheory123 i'll respond to your post tomorrow when I've finished some other stuff and can justify it to myself
     
  29. Kyouko |-/

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    @Nighty the Mighty

    well?

    you are our resident souls expert :skysun
     
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  30. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    I don't think we have enough concrete info on ariandel :hm

    I guess we do know that the painter can create a new painted world though - that's a reasonably good feat
     

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