1. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  2. GN

    Come join the Football/Soccer Women's World Cup and Copa America predicting competitions.
    Dismiss Notice

  3. Voting for the Contest Central Drawing Contest is live!
    Entries can be found here and the voting threads can be found here and here.
    Voting ends on Sunday, June the 30th!
    Dismiss Notice

  4. Come enter in the KCC Cooking Contest -- Drinks!
    Dismiss Notice

  5. The KCC is hosting a Short Story Contest!
    Entries are due by July 9th at 2:30am UTC!
    Dismiss Notice

The Elegant Argument

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Madara, Oct 7, 2005.

  1. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    Please read all the way through, it makes alot of sense. I hope this thread will diminish the amount of "why is oro scared of itachi-sama-kun?" What is strength? Shit like that. By the way it is not the Rock, Paper, Scissor argument. It is an alternative. Thanks for taking the time.



    The Elegant Argument


    First, instead of S,A,B,C,? ranks. To distinguish the quality of jutsus we will consider four classes. Here they are from highest to lowest.

    First Class (Guardian)

    Description: All members of this class require ?soul chakra.? Soon after the jutsu is completed, the user dies.

    Examples: (Chiyo-baa?s) Tensei no Jutsu, Shiki Fuujin, Opening of the Death Gate

    Second Class (Forbidden)


    Description: All jutsus in this class require a life or more. Edo Tensei needs corpses in order to anchor souls. It is assumed Shouten no Jutsu needs living vessels. To activate the Mangekyou Sharingan (Itachi?s) you need to kill your best friend. Orochimaru?s Fushi Tensei? You know the deal.

    Examples: Edo Tensei, Shouten no Jutsu, Mangekyou Sharingan, Fushi Tensei,?

    Third Class (Dangerous)

    Description: These jutsus strain the body so much, using them is dangerous. They tend to magnify an attribute(chakra extraction, speed, regeneration) unnaturally for a short period of time.

    Examples: Omote Renge, Souzou Saisei, Ura Renge, Cursed Seal, upper Kyuubi levels...

    Fourth Class (The Rest)

    Description: All the other jutsus.

    Examples: There are plenty.

    So, why should I use these stupid distinctions you've just made up?


    Aha! It gives way to the elegant argument.

    Shinobis like Orochimaru, Itachi, Kisame and so on? Can?t use First Class jutsus. Why? Not because they don?t have the ability but because it doesn?t fit their nature. None of them are willing to give up their lives to protect a loved one or a village. They have selfish intentions.

    On the other side, Shinobis like Sarutobi, Gai, Jiraiya, Tsunade would never use Second Class jutsus. This would mean taking other lives for granted. It is not their Shinobi way. However, if it came down to it, they would sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

    Ok, but who says First Class jutsus are better than Second Class jutsus?


    For one the evidence is there. The Death God summon owned one of the greatest (if no the greatest) Second Class jutsu, Orochimaru?s Edo Tensei. Had Sarutobi been younger, they say, he would have pulled more than Orochimaru?s arms too.
    It has also been said that opening the Death Gate makes you temporarily greater than a Kage.

    Sceptics should also remember that this is the great moral of Kishimoto?s story.

    Those who live for their loved ones are worthy. Those who live for themselves, leave their friends behind ?are worse than trash.?

    Sarutobi chose Yondaime not Orochimaru after all (and so did Kishimoto in a way). How exactly would Orochimaru have stopped the Kyuubi?


    Itachi is still the illest though, you can?t convince me otherwise. Or can you?


    Itachi and Orochimaru?s shinobi way is very seducing because you don?t ever need to sacrifice yourself. Shinobis who are unable to wield First Class jutsus or don?t have the moral fiber better stay out of Akatsuki?s way. These mofo?s will kill any Shinobi who isn?t sincerely dedicated to either classes.

    Here come the conclusions.

    Jiraiya knows First Class jutsus. There is little doubt about it, since he was offered the job of Hokage.

    He would have protected Naruto at any cost. Even if he didn?t, Itachi and Kisame wouldn?t have taken the risk.

    THAT IS WHY ITACHI AND KISAME FEAR JIRAIYA. Plain and simple.

    Wait, wait, wait, something?s not right, why then didn?t Jiraiya use any of his First Class jutsus on Orochimaru when he was fighting him with Tsunade?

    Jiraiya was poisoned and Orochimaru wasn?t attacking Konoha. Jiraiya thought that 2 against one would be enough to take him down. And as you can see, it wasn?t. As long as they don?t sacrifice themselves, they will never be better than Orochimaru.

    Are you starting to understand?

    Yes, I think I am.

    Ok, now go on and spread the word. lol

    Don't treat me like I'm your disciple or something.

    It was a joke.

    Spoiler:
    Fuck you.


    What? Man, I don't even know why I bothered writing this up...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2005
    Tags:
  2. uncle jafuncle sustenance proxy

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    Reputation:
    Reps.


    Only problem I see with that arguement is Kakashi having blackhole MS. Unless Kakashi went and killed Rin or something he has definitely found a way to beat your theory...which exceptions only prove the rule, so yeah. Damn geniuses always fuck everything up.
     
  3. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    Yeah, I was actually thinking about that... I guess I would put Kakashi's as a 3rd Class Jutsu.

    Damn Kakashi!! He better have an explanation...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2005
  4. Sho Active Member

    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Reputation:
    You definitely have a great theory, especially when you tie in the Jiraiya part with Itachi/Kisame. Makes alot of sense.

    I think too that only the real top shinobis have the first class jutsus you mentioned. I mean, sacrificing yourself is good and all, but you still need to be a really good ninja to pull it off. For example, even if Iruka was determined to protect the village, there's no way in hell he could do so if he were facing a Kage level ninja.

    After reading this theory, maybe Kakashi will be having one of the first class jutsus in the future, so that he could truly be considered one of the strongest like he should be. But then again it sucks since there only gonna be using that one move only once, while the characters that use 2nd class jutsus will be the ones who live. The first one seems more powerful at first, but the 2nd class moves are more practical for multiple use in the long run, not to mention it makes the user incredibly powerful when they use it. So I guess it's a give and take. For protection, first class moves are best, but for destruction, the second class moves are.
     
  5. gruevy Grammar Nazi

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Reputation:
    I always kinda figger'd they worried about jiraiya because anyone who would go into battle fearlessly wearing that hair has got to be an f'ed up mofo. No really, though, you seem to have nailed it.
     
  6. Woofie Coordinator

    Messages:
    3,831
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Reputation:
    This deserves more replies, it's an interesting theory that does make a lot of sense, particularly when applied to Jiraiya and Itachi and Kisame's fear of him... if they know or strongly suspect that he can use such jutsu, then it's true that the best they can hope for is that both sides die.

    I don't think Jiraiya being offered the Hokage title really proves he knows these First Class jutsu though... at the time, there simply wasn't any alternative. If Jiraiya hadn't been there, someone like Kakashi would presumably have been offered the title purely because he was strongest ninja left in the village, even though he doesn't know any First Class jutsu (as far as we know). There are surely times when there are no ninjas available who know these jutsu, and the time when Jiraiya was offered the role could have been one of them. And does Tsunade know any such jutsu? Would Itachi and Kisame say the same about her?

    That being said, it's very believable that he does know them and would be willing to use them if necessary. He was in the same 'crowd' as Yondaime and Sandaime, both of whom new at least one such jutsu... it's quite possible that Yondaime had the foresight to teach Shiki Fuujin to Jiraiya too. Or alternatively, it's possible that Jiraiya could develop such a jutsu himself; he's developed high-level jutsu, has good knowledge of seals etc. And while he's never shown a huge amount of dedication or altruism, I have no doubt that he would sacrifice himself for the village if necessary. So yup, I think he's a very likely candidate to know that kind of jutsu.


    ...On a side note, though, I don't exactly agree that First Class jutsu are better than Second Class jutsu; they're better at defending the village, for sure, but if you're going to use it in a one-one-one battle then the best you can do is draw. :laugh
     
  7. Low-fi Boy Head in the clouds

    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Reputation:
    Very interesting categorisation of jutsu, I like that theory, how ninjas intentions and objectives tie in with the jutsus they use
     
  8. ShounenSuki Ruler of Penguins

    Messages:
    2,667
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Reputation:
    wow...this 'Elegant argument' actually makes sense...reps for you *goes on and spreads the word*
     
  9. iamaseb New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Reputation:
    We can also say that when Deidera knew she was fu**** she used a first class jutsu.
     
  10. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    Thanks for the feedback. Alot of y'all raise good points that I overlooked.

    - Deidara blew himself up

    and

    - It's not really a victory if you use First Class jutsus, it's more of a draw.

    I'm going to consolidate both of these issues.

    A victory for a shinobi is to fulfill a mission or an ambition. Not necessarily killing the most opponents. Deidara's mission was to get the Konoha Jinchuuriki.

    Deidara failed. Sure, he died hard, but he definitely failed.

    Sarutobi and Chiyo both succeeded. Albeit Chiyo's victory is not in the conventional sense. But she saved a dying Sakura, killed Sasori and corrected her mistake with Gaara. And that was her intention. The price: her life.

    Evil Shinobis would never resort to using First Class jutsus because it is incoherent with their ambitions.

    Evil Shinobis will die hard though, that's an almost certainty, but that's because they are sore losers.

    If your a good Shinobi, you can die and still fulfill your mission. Which means a victory. That's not the case for Evil Shinobis.

    Sarutobi defeated Orochimaru. Orochimaru was unable to carry his mission and Sarutobi defended Konoha, which he had vowed to do when he took the job of Hokage.


    Does that make sense?
     
  11. Shidoshi Cross Marian: Ninjai's Father

    Messages:
    5,042
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    594
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    I'm not sure if Jiraiya would actually sacrifice himself to save Konoha. I know that he'd kill anyone who threatened the safety of the village, and he's mentioned doing so more than thrice. Hell, he even told Tsunade that he'd kill her if she betrayed Konoha. As such, I'm not sure if Jiraiya even knows the Shinigami summoning (prior to Sandaime using it in his battle with Oro), because he left when Orochimaru left and Orochimaru didn't know about it either.

    However, that's not to say that I don't think he wouldn't do anything in his power to defend Konoha, but there's the underlying principle between "good" ambitions and "evil" ambitions.

    When your mission is to get something your objective is to win. To win, you have to obtain it.

    When your mission is to defend something, your objective is to keep th other person from obtaining it. To do that, your objective is to not lose.

    If your mission is to get something and bring it back, then you're going to have to get it to complete the mission.

    If your mission is to keep someone from getting that something, then simply driving them off, or destroying what they're after constitutes a completed mission.

    There's a subtle difference between the two objectives, and the reason we'll probably never see Itachi, Kisame, Oro or the rest of Akatsuki use any "First Class" Jutsu is because they don't have a village to protect.

    But this is a great arguement, terakahn.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2005
  12. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    Thanks Shidoshi. Perhaps not Jiraiya, but then Tsunade since she has accepted the job of Hokage. Also I'm not saying they will use the Death God, maybe another not yet seen First Class jutsu.
     
  13. Tai-Gen-Nin New Member

    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Reputation:
    Certaintly is something to keep in mind, I would think that Jiraiya living in solitude would have created more 1st Class Jutsu's but you never know. It wil also be ineresting to see if Kabuto is willing to take such a jutsu for Orochimaaru consdiering some loyalty concerns in the past (ie the mission to kill Sasuke)
     
  14. Mizura Meh

    Messages:
    22,418
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2004
    Reputation:
    A very, very impressive alternative way of looking at things! Reps.

    I think you can also add to that jutsu class. The way you've put it, it shows a correlation between how powerful you are and how far you're willing to go as well. It's just not about raw strength (though you need that too).

    First class shinobi: Sacrifice myself

    They are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve a greater good. This isn't just not caring about dying, it's about how desperately you're willing to fight on in order to achieve something. You need this quality to be able to use first class jutsus in the first place, though you don't have to have first class jutsus to be able to be first class. Examples of this are Yondaime, Sandaime (who both willingly sacrificed themselves), Uzumaki Naruto and to some degrees Sakura while she was fighting against Sasori.

    Second class shinobis: Sacrifice everything else

    Eh. The companion to second class jutsus. These people are willing to commit anything in order to further their goals. Examples are Itachi and Sasuke.

    Everybody else

    Um, yeah. Why do I have this by the way? Because the degree of determination can make a difference on your performance. Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura can and probably will take on opponents stronger than them, making the difference not thanks to strength, but in how much they're willing to push themselves. A first class shinobi with just third class jutsus might be able to defeat a second or third class shinobi with second class jutsus based on determination alone (plus when you're desperate, and not just for your own sake, you'd start thinking up more possibilities than that cocky bastard who's barely trying).

    Sakura (first class shinobi) managed to destroy the product of a second class jutsu (the puppet required a sacrifice after all) by Sasori with a measly fourth class jutsu, then both Chiyo and Sakura kept up with Sasori despite having lower-class jutsus. Naruto isn't about to sacrifice anybody else for a jutsu, on the short term he's sticking to (very) dangerous jutsus, but he'll somehow manage to defeat Akatsuki with those.

    This class also determines your future level.
     
  15. Mind Sleep deprived wreck

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Reputation:
    Oooooh. NICE terakahn! :)

    lol. Your multi-font-size arguement has certainly swayed me! Very interesting and sensible idea. Rep.
     
  16. silverwings Hero of Time

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Reputation:
    Awesome argument! *reps*

    Also, where does Tsudane's Gensis Rebirth fit in? It doesn't kill her, persay, but it does shorten her lifespan.

    Again, great argument.
     
  17. Snidely Itchy

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Reputation:
    It doesn't require payment on anyone else's behalf (Second Class) and it's more dangerous than a Third Class...so maybe a second-rate first class jutsu. ;P

    All I have to say is that Itachi wasn't really afraid of Jiraiya (Kisame definately wasn't; he wondered why they ran away), the same way Oro wasn't afraid of Sarutobi or Jiraiya. Itachi just knew that fighting Jiraiya was risky, because as you say, he'd be willing to do anything to protect Naruto. (This isn't a critism of your argument, in fact, it makes it stronger. Just thought I'd point it out is all.)
     
  18. TenshiOni Active Member

    Messages:
    18,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Reputation:
    Nice job. It's certaintly reasonable.
     
  19. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    I classified Tsunade's Genesis Rebirth as a Third Class jutsu, it's up there as Souzou Saisei. Why? Because it's extremely dangerous to the user's body. It doesn't kill anyone though.
     
  20. Snidely Itchy

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Reputation:
    I dunno. You can recover from demon-chakra or opening some of the gates with simple bed rest. Tsunade can only use GR a limited number of times before it kills her.
     
  21. tofutofutofu Priest

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Reputation:
    terakahn you are genius, hero
     
  22. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    Mmmmm... GR is a tricky one, Snidely. I don't know either.
     
  23. Shisui is dead

    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Reputation:
    Wow. Elegant, indeed. I do like your ordering of the jutsu-classes. I'm seeing a basic underlying principle which is sort of like a Shinobi Law of Conservation - the power of a jutsu depends on what you're willing to spend to make it work:

    One's Chakra -> One's Health -> Others' Lives -> One's Own Life

    But I think the line between First and Second Class jutsu is a little more vague than you realize. Consider, for the sake of argument, that some unstoppable Kyuubi-style monster is loose in the Narutoverse and the only ninja with the technique to stop it is dead. If some person were to present hismelf as a sacrifice for Edo Tensei so that that ninja could be resurrected, wouldn't Edo Tensei become a First Class jutsu in that situation?
     
  24. Shidoshi Cross Marian: Ninjai's Father

    Messages:
    5,042
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    594
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    That just proves that there are always shades of "gray" in almost any situation.

    But I think the underlying basis of his argument is quite sound...as I'm sure you'll agree.
     
  25. Madara The Original Uchiha

    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Reputation:
    I have a question though, how many First Class jutsus can you use?

    Can one person open the Death gate, summon the Shinigami and use Tensei ninjutsu?
     
  26. Shisui is dead

    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Reputation:
    I do agree - but that's exactly why I find the shades of grey troubling. Because one of the main points of Terakhan's argument is that First Class jutsu trump Second Class jutsu in terms of power. But if a Second Class jutsu can become a First Class jutsu, then it throws that power relationship into disorder.

    In my opinion, I don't think that First Class jutsu are more powerful than Second Class, since the only difference between human-sacrifice and self-sacrifice is one's point of view. I think it's that self-sacrifice is more reliable than human-sacrifice.

    Whereas human-sacrifice jutsu require one to go out and find/kill another suitable body (usually an unwilling victim), self-sacrifice jutsu only require a willingness to die on the part of the user, and so self-sacrifice jutsu can be used more readily.

    For example, Oro vs. Sarutobi: Sarutobi used Shiki Fuujin to counter Edo Tensei when Oro ambushed him. But Oro couldn't have used Edo Tensei to counter Shiki Fuujin if things were the other way around, because Edo Tensei requires too much preparation in finding other bodies and such.

    So it's not really that First Class jutsu are more powerful, but that they're a trump card that one always has available if things get too hairy. The only problem (and I agree with Terakhan here), is that shinobi like Orochimaru don't have such a trump card available to them, because they don't fight for anyone but themselves, and so self-sacrifice always runs counter to their motives. They need to resort to Second Class jutsu in order to seek greater power, but this fact makes an interesting balance of power between the "good ninja" and "evil ninja":

    Good Ninja: Capable of self-sacrifice, which is the ultimate trump card, but such techniques can only be used once (obviously).
    Evil Ninja: Lack the self-sacrifice trump card, but are willing to sacrifice others, which is less reliable, but can be used over and over again.
     
  27. sheshyo Doesn't need a Custom Title

    Messages:
    3,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Reputation:
    Good observation, your theory is quite interesting.

    Only thing I would argue is that,

    I don't see why the first class jutsu should be limited to just good ninjas. An evil ninja could very well use it. For example, to take out a village by using a self-exploding jutsu and cause a wide scale damage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2005
  28. uncle jafuncle sustenance proxy

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    Reputation:
    Evil ninjas are usually selfish...hence they aren't willing to die for their cause.
     
  29. sheshyo Doesn't need a Custom Title

    Messages:
    3,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Reputation:
    Well, we would consider Kimimaro as an evil ninja, yet he sacrificed his life for Oro's cause. I just don't see why being evil or good has to do anything with being able to self sacrifice. If the cause is worth the sacrifice, it shouldn't matter if they're "good" or "evil". Consequently for Kimimaro, it was about being loyal to Oro, and for Sarutobi, it was about being loyal to Konoha and protecting its people.

    After all both good and evil ninjas are humans, thus both should be capable of going to equal extremes.
     
  30. 4ghost Seimei

    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Reputation:
    Nice Argument terakahn it is definetly an interesting perspective. Reps.

    This argument can also be percieved to be part of what Jiraiya was talking about back in chapter 166 when he said to Orochimaru, "you still don't understand what it takes for a shinobi to be called a ninja." "The most important ninja talent is not the number of techniques one aquires... the most important thing is a spirit which never gives up!!"


    I'm going to add two more examples to your first class shinobi list. At least from what they showed in the chase Sasuke Arch both Choji and Neji willingly sacrificed themeselves to insure that the group can move on to complete the mission.
     
Loading...