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The gap between first mate and Admirals is much bigger than we thought.

Discussion in 'Ohara Library' started by Extravlad, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. shisuiuchiha5 Well-Known Member

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    Rayliegh was panting heavily and could not even keep up with kizaru who was playing around.if kizaru is serious,then rayliegh would have been fodderised.imagine if it was akainu on that island??
    It would have been a nightmare for rayleigh.
    Kizaru was able to match with Rayleigh in swordsmenhip,even that is not his speciality
     
  2. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    Kizaru's personality is like that, stop trying to use it as evidence that he was being casual, Rayleigh had stamina issues but was defending luffy and co and was still winning.

    Sorry but your admiral fanwank is stupid.

    Rayeligh was able to blitz Kizaru, even though it was Kizaru's specialty and he was mid movement.
     
  3. shisuiuchiha5 Well-Known Member

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    Rayleigh was having stamina issues???the same Rayleigh that swam all the way from Shabaody island to Amazon Lilly was having stamina issues??

    Kizaru was playing around with Rayleigh,and Rayleigh was not winning at all.he was lucky that it kizaru on that island and not akainu.
     
  4. GilDLax Well-Known Member

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    Okay, first of all, being stronger doesn't mean you have to be faster.

    Second, supposed to be? You mean your headcanon? We never know Kizaru's specialty. His fruit gives speed and that's more than enough and fucking convenient to end fodders (compared to Kizaru) like pre-TS Supernova so he uses it. It may be his most apparent quality but specialty? So you have to invent fake evidence to prove your point. Good to know!

    Finally, you have to be significantly faster (compared to opponent's reaction speed) to actually outspeed someone. That doesn't contradict with Kizaru's being the fastest. That said, I never said he was anw so you are replying to the wrong guy LOL

    So next time think carefully before you retort otherwise it's just bad generalization.


    Except they don't LOL. You talk like all Yonkou are exactly equal in strength. It's a tier/level and you can have difference within that range. Rayleigh may be Yonkou level but the weakest for example and Kizaru is above that but not as strong as the top of the level like...whoever that is supposed to be (EoSTeach, EoSAkainu, Kaidou etc.).

    Besides the reason I asked is I simply wanted evidence for every bit of claim Kai made. It's not because I think he's wrong in all 3 claims. I actually don't think Rayleigh is Yonkou level, too, but because of different reasons.


    Depends on the circumstances. If he kills BB or Kizaru by blindsiding them after EoSLuffy, for example, fights them to miserable state then hardly a point in Marco's favor.

    Also depends on Marco's power level. I mean we're debating the Marco in MF as we know him now, so it doesn't help if Oda power-ups Marco post-TS. Then pre-TS Marco could be <<< Admirals indeed and post-TS Marco is > Admirals and they don't contradict. So neither camp is wrong.

    Now if Marco's power level is the same post-TS and he beats them in a fair fight then I will admit I'm wrong. Still no reason to kill myself LOL. Oh, but only if he uses the same nameless kick he did in MF. Because again, we're debating the Marco we know. If he has some ultra secret technique and he didn't use in MF then not my fault for putting him below Kizaru. And what an asshole not using his full power to save Ace LOL

    Wait, why would Marco killing another Yonkou first mate makes me wanna kill myself? My whole point is Yonkou first mates have nothing supporting them to be on the same level as Admirals or even close. Why would beating a fellow in the same category affect my point? O__O





    Exactly LOL


    ...
    That's why Roger is PK?...Because his crew is so fucking strong (well, at least that should be one of the reasons. The others are Roger's being able to hear voice of all things blah blah). Shiki was a Yonkou figure (assuming the title Yonkou did exist back then but Shiki's power level was at that anw so title does not matter) and true, Roger escaped thanks to luck but the idea is he needs one ship to wreck half the army of his fellow Yonkou. If that's not evidence that Roger's crew is sickly storng I don't know what is...
    And Rayleigh is the Dark King who Jinbe was shocked to meet, the same Jinbe who didn't even cower in front of BM? ...
    And that's why Garp implied ''Marines should not face two legends at the same time''?

    I'm not really pushing Rayleigh being Yonkou level though. But I think it's clear PK level is decidedly superior to the current Yonkou level. Sick, old WB who is way out of his prime (testaments are Marco and Crocodile's talks) is a Yonkou and WSM. Ergo his Prime self, which is equal to or at least 99% Roger level, is much stronger than current Yonkou level. Same goes for Garp who complained of his old age yet feats are still Yonkou level so PrimeRayleigh being a notch superior to Yonkou is nothing weird if his captain is much stronger than Yonkou.

    Even though the Pirate Era started with Roger's death, it doesn't mean the level of competition is as high. It's more about quantity than quality because everyone and their mothers want to be pirates (exaggeration of course). Which is fine, really, because Luffy seems to go a different route from Rogers. He made allies and whatnot instead of using Oro Jackson and solo his way through LOL Then again BM pirates are so competent he kinda did with half his crew + Jinbe and some help here and there like Pekoms and Pudding hahaha.


    I never think that or say that. Shows how much people on this forum assume stuffs. I merely asked Kai for each of his claim's evidence.
     
  5. Zeus. Victor Oladeepthroat

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    Big Mom is 68, Rayleigh is 78.
     
  6. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    Wait really? Wasn't it implied that Big Mom was an established veteran when rookie Roger came in?

    Either way both are weakened by age and seemingly inactivity. (Big Mom is fat too)
     
  7. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    I mean Marco only ever got hit by blindsides at marineford. Both kizaru attacks and the placing of seastone were blindsides, garp hitting him was a blindside, and he wasn't hit beyond that

    Marco used high speed rotation to create a air bubble that stopped the beams that were aimed at whitebeard.
    Marco used intangibility as he flew in phoenix mode at Kizaru.

    Marco has the ability to go intangible, but he has to actively use it + based on what I've seen, he is unable to physically attack while intangible since he's not logia intangible but actually just intangible.

    Then with blackbeard he had a crew that consisted of 1 armed jozu, vista, and maybe squard (strongest ally of whitebeard of the time)
     
  8. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    Are you trying to say that swimming through some tough seas is easier than battling a top tier who can move at the speed of at least lightning, if not light but not react at that level and requires a pre determined path and end point that takes a second to load?

    I mean honestly that swimming feat is cool and all, but Zoro, if not pre skip, I say zoro cuz he's not a devil fruit user.

    Kizaru was not playing around with Rayleigh. Also if akainu was there, it'd not have mattered for rayleigh, though maybe a few of the supernova would be dead, though you could make the argument that he wouldn't be fast enough like kizaru.

    You're literally making stuff up like normal, Kizaru's personality is like that, he wasn't holding back. Rayleigh standstilled Kizaru, he just couldn't retain it due to some stamina issues, however he has trained over the timeskip as well it seems and got back into shape so he'd probably be around the same power and have no stamina issues or he might be stronger than kizaru now.
     
  9. GilDLax Well-Known Member

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    No. It was just that BM had a Poneglyph and Roger stole it or something like that. Nothing about established or rookie LOL. ''implied'' is a great word but all that means is you are making your own headcanon which is not necessarily...canon. If fodders like Alabasta can have a Poneglyph then young BM who was a monster already totally could. And Roger stole it because maybe he was alone back then without his crew due to some situation or whatever.




    You mean damaged? Because he sure got hit a lot when he knew. Kizaru's first barrage for example.

    No evidence Garp was blindsiding. For all we know Garp was so fats Marco got blitzed from a frontal attack LOL


    No, he tanked those beams. What air bubble? That was just his wings' movement

    Marco does not have intangibility. He regenerates.
    You need to stop your imaginary feats.
     
  10. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    Alabasta's royalty are celestrial dragons.

    Also no, hit. Marco was not hit by Kizaru's ranged attacks outside of the blindsides

    Marco did high speed rotations to create an air bubble that stopped the first attack on whitebeard.
    Then when marco was flying through the air as a pheonix at kizaru he was intangible.
    1) He was not displaced, he was displaced when he was actually hit and only healed afterwards
    2) When he was hit and regenerated, he was physically hurt, he felt nothing while flying at kizaru

    So yeah, he was never hit outside of a blindside.

    Regarding Garp: "For all we know"
    You point out implied as head canon, but you're going to literally try to pull off "I don't know but I could be right" as evidence for your argument? You're a shit poster.

    The movement of his wings spinning around created the air bubble.

    Sorry but you're full of shit, it's objectively factual that he was intangible, he was not displaced, he showed no sign of being hit (he regenerates, ie he gets hurt first then he heals), etc.

    His blue flames are intangible to non buso attacks, we saw how he reacts when he was hit normally, he was hit backwards (displaced) and groaned in pain and showed clear signs of pain. Sorry but Marco has soft intangibility, there is literally no other way about it, it's a simple fact. His casual fly towards Kizaru with no lasers actually hitting him and instead going helplessly through him without pushing him back at all or showing any sort of pain is evidence of this.

    Marco's regeneration is limited but he was only hit by blindsides, sorry that your admiral wank and whitebeard pirates hate is bullshit.
     
  11. Milkydean Well-Known Member

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    Sure,but Kizaru's priority were the strawhats yet he wasn't able to even attack them.

    Kizaru's speciality could be anything but unless and until he shows anything else that could be termed as his speciality,his best feature is speed.Or do you have evidence that there is anything else to him?Also,what fake evidence?I used the only evidence,you talk as if Kizaru has shown multitude of feats.
    Lol no,you don't have to be significantly fast,and Kizaru tried to catch up with the strawhats but was easily stopped.Kizaru isn't the fastest when he can't even blitz any top tiers.

    Good lord,you guys are truly the clowns of OL.
    Mihawk have the title of strongest swordsman which makes up for a clearer perspective,what does Kizaru have over Rayleigh?Nothing,they were equals until proven otherwise.
     
  12. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    @ Gil.

    My bad, I think that I misread the tone of your post and was under the impression that you were posing the opposite view. I actually don't disagree with a lot of the points that you're making about evidence and what not.

    About the Roger Pirates, what you're saying is true but they were still the rivals to other Yonkou Crews. The argument lacks empirical evidence but I just don't see how any other crews would rival them with 2 characters who are > most of the Yonkou. But who knows?

    About Jinbe, he previously freaked out at the idea of Luffy yelling at Big Mam's character and the implications that would have for Fishman Island. He's also running away from Big Mam's character. The scene that you're referencing seems more about resolve in his confidence for Luffy becoming Pirate King. And if I remember correctly Jinbe makes no attempt to defend which makes me think that Jinbe doesn't think that he has any counter if Big Mam's character tries.

    If that version of Whitebeard's character is second to no other Yonkou then that could be true but it's unlikely that the title is including his character's illness and questionable if the title is including his character's old age.

    Good post though, even the parts that I respectfully disagree are understandable in my opinion.
     
  13. GilDLax Well-Known Member

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    They are not. You really don't read the manga. DD said they refused the honor and kept living in Alabasta. They are never Tenryuubito or if I step 10000000 steps back, at least they are only in names and do not have the same power.


    Shown nowhere LOL


    He's not. He simply regenerated.
    1) What ''displaced''? The guy was blindisied so it's hurt.
    2) Right, because actively getting hit whilst being mentally prepared is not different from being blindsided. How long have you read manga? Durability change is a thing.


    Do you understand English? You ARE THE ONE who claimed Garp blindsided Marco. YOU have the burden of proof. All I did is show you another possibility of what could have happened, which is Garp may have blitzed Marco. I never said it was an evidence, neither did I think it must have been the case. It's YOUR responsibility to provide proof of the otherwise.

    Grow up and stop using Strawman!


    Great imagination! Nothing like that is drawn. He was hit directly at his body.


    It's objectively factual that Oda said he had a body in an SBS. Are you retarded? If he's intangible why the fuck does he need to regenerate? There's nothing to regenerate from if he's intangible like Logia and never sustain injuries to begin. with. Unless you're suggesting the guy, who is WB's 2nd in command, a seasoned, experienced veteran (a bit redudndant but whatever) pirate, knows less than enough to keep his body in intangible form like other Logia?

    The difference is just he was mentally prepared in one case so he had the regenerative blue flame up and simply endured the pain like nothing, and in other case he was blindsided so his regeneration was not active and he was not prepared so the pain is more acute than normal. It's the same thing if I go to get a vaccine and I know what is coming I wouldn't scream. But if you suddenly show up behind me and poke me with a sharp needle then ''ouch'' I will shout.

    DD may be ragdolled but he can can endured the pain G4 made without making too bad of a facial expression, but look at how a mere Red Hawk made his face miserable even though G2<<<G4. All because Red Hawk was delivered when DD did not expect it. Your durability and endurance suffers according to your mentality. It's a manga thing since forever (though not all mangaka employed it).

    Seriously, pay attention to details when reading manga.



    Hate? Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I hate the characters. LOL, shows how much of a kid you are (your real age does not matter to me). The kind of stupid generalization stupid people make.



    Yeah, because Rayleigh is fast enough. Zolo for example is not a speedster but it's not a problem as long as he has reaction speed good enough to deal with speedster.

    Look, you don't actually refute what I said (being faster doesn't necessarily make you stronger and vice versa). You're just stubbornly clinging to the idea that Kizaru either showed he blitzed people or he is not faster, which is fucking stupid. How big the gap is relevant. The gap has to be big enough for you to blitz/outspeed people.


    Swordsmanship (shown against Rayleigh)? Markmanship (shown when he shot the key. Not Usopp or Yassop or Van Auger level but still really good)? High firepower (laser barrage)? He's the most versatile Admirals so far yet you reduced him to just speedster...


    Well, yeah, you don't have to be significantly fast, just significantly faster than the guy you fight.

    Again, just because he can't blitz top tier doesn't mean he's not faster (though again, I never said he was but I will indulge you). You don't get to blitz people whose reaction and perception speed are like very close to you unless very specific circumstance happens.

    Besides, my point is Kizaru can fuck Strongest Yonkou Commanders, top-tiers are irrelevant here. Until you can proves all Strongest Yonkou Commanders have Old Rayleigh's speed, your talk is meaningless.


    I don't know who or what OL is but given the level of logic and assumption you showed in your post, I find nothing wrong with me saying that.

    I never said a word about Kizaru's speed yet you assumed it was my reasoning and then used it to retort my opinion which is Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh. If that's not generalization then you are simply delusional and imagine what I didn't say just so you can attack a point I never made.

    So pick one: A generaliz-er (which is fine, some people generalize once or twice in their lives, as long as you learn from it) or straight-up delululusional.


    Quantity vs quality is a thing. That's why Shiki brought a fucking fleet.


    You just said it: he has to think about his island's safety...when he decides to stop thinking about that and make a resolve, BM's presence is nothing. On the other hand, Rayleigh's reputation made him...nuff said.

    You're addressing a point I never made. Jinbe's power level vs BM's power level is not the problem here...BM is stronger period.


    Depends on in-verse definition of creature. If it includes human then maybe Kaidou is stronger than WB

    It did. Doflamingo is the most trusted expert so far when it comes to New World affairs (he deals business with most of them and is linked with Kaidou himself so...) and he said it clear: WB was not interested in PK title but he ruled in front of the throne. Ergo Shanks who seems to be equally uninterested (at least Gorosei said that he would not change the world on his own wants) aside, neither BM nor Kaidou managed to beat WB.

    And I think the title given in the box is omnipotent narrative. Unless we start suspecting Mihawk's title now.
     
  14. PwnGoatVSPandaman Better Than Grimm

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    They are of the same blood as celestrial dragons I mean, they just chose to live with the people and rule their kingdom. SO yeah, that was my point.

    About the high speed rotations, look at the fucking panel in the manga, he is spinning at high speeds and you can see the lasers are being stopped and building up in an orb since they have nowhere to go, that's not regeneration, he stopped it with high speed rotations to create a wind wall.
    No he wasn't directly hit, go look at the damn chapter =w=

    The light has nowhere to go because of the pocket of wind that Marco created, therefore it's colliding upon itself, marco stopped the attack. He turned into a pheonix then did high speed rotations to create the barrier of wind that stopped the lasers then they built up into a giant orb since they had nowhere to go.

    Regeneration = healing after damage, like when Garp and Kizaru hit him.

    However when he was going at Kizaru in his pheonix full form, the attacks went through him without any pain indication and it just helplessly went through him without pushing him back or anything. If he was physically hit he would have showed signs of being pushed.



    See, he's physically being moved by the lasers when he's not in his intangible state. Even if he regenerated from that damage, he was still physically pained by it and he was displaced spatially.

    Of course his intangibility is worse than admirals but when he's focusing on being intangible to an attack, he can't be hurt by non buso attacks anyway. His intangibility also seems to not allow him to hit others I'd imagine unlike admirals.



    Notice how he's missing part of his head there without showing any sign of pain, if he was simply regenerating, he'd feel all the pain of being hit and would simply be able to heal back from it. However in that panel he's clearly fine. Then you look at him flying at Kizaru and the lasers uselessly go through and Kizaru is even surprised at this fact (! and possibly the !!! as well)

    He's not hurt, and he's not displaced, meaning he's not simply getting pierced and regenerating, the lasers are uselessly shooting through him. We have to remember that Marco is essentially blue flames on when he's in his phoenix form.

    If his power was purely regeneration, he'd show signs of being physically hurt like when buso garp punched him and he was blindsided those times, he was hurt. Regeneration is after the damage is done, if you regenerate getting cut in half, you got cut in half and felt it.

    This is how Marco reacts when hit by an attack that gets through his intangibility:


    No the burden of proof isn't on me, Marco took no notice on panel of Garp, he was simply casually flying one moment then he was punched the next, it was a blindside. Also notice he is still bruised in the picture, further evidence of his regeneration not being some instantaneous thing that he doesn't even feel pain. Stop being bitter that I called you out for you bullshit.
    You make the claim that Garp speed blitzed Marco when there are no panels of Marco taking notice of Garp till after the punch and he was just casually flying towards Ace before that.
    Yet the burden is on me? Are you fucking retarded?

    No it's not "objectively factual", you just made that fact up. Lol at your shit posting.
    Why does he need to regenerate? He only regenerated when he was hit when he was faced away to worry about whitebeard, when he was in seastone, and when garp hit him with a buso punch. He heals damage and maims, it's much more limited overall but gives him an edge over others who are at his level anyway who can't regenerate, he does have intangibility. He didn't need to regenerate when he was casually flying at kizaru and kizaru's lasers went uselessly through him, nor was he damaged during that time period.

    There is literally nothing that suggests your theory is right, while mine is 100% in line with it. But anyway Marco is physically unable to act when he's intangible, he used it when flying at kizaru cuz he didn't need to attack till the last minute to throw the kick. He was physically turning around to start running after Whitebeard to assist him when he was first shot, the second time he was in seastone so his devil fruit wasn't usable at all, and the third time (garp punch) involved a busoshoku, which allows you to hit intangible devil fruit users.

    Mentally prepared? Lol. If he endured the pain, then why did he not endure the pain when he was shot by less lasers? Why wasn't he moved when he was casually flying at kizaru? It's quite simple, your stance is illogical and is born out of pure bias and pre-conceived thoughts. You hear on a regular basis that Marco isn't shit so your way of thinking is built around that instead of actually looking at the panels and analyzing what really happened.

    Red Hawk knocked the wind out of Doflamingo:

    And as far as his expression, it was already shocked looking cuz he was caught off guard and was simply surprised.

    It's objectively factual that Oda said he had a body in an SBS. Are you retarded? If he's intangible why the fuck does he need to regenerate? There's nothing to regenerate from if he's intangible like Logia and never sustain injuries to begin. with. Unless you're suggesting the guy, who is WB's 2nd in command, a seasoned, experienced veteran (a bit redudndant but whatever) pirate, knows less than enough to keep his body in intangible form like other Logia?

    The difference is just he was mentally prepared in one case so he had the regenerative blue flame up and simply endured the pain like nothing, and in other case he was blindsided so his regeneration was not active and he was not prepared so the pain is more acute than normal. It's the same thing if I go to get a vaccine and I know what is coming I wouldn't scream. But if you suddenly show up behind me and poke me with a sharp needle then ''ouch'' I will shout.

    You say pay attention but you ignore the details I pointed out. In the end I didn't even have to argue that.
    1) Marco showed ZERO pain while charging in in phoenix form
    2) He showed a lot of pain otherwise

    1) Doflamingo showed moderate pain from Red Hawk
    2) Doflamingo showed arguably superior struggle (albeit less blood) when hit by G4, despite the fact that he physically defended against it with buso instead of taking it to his gut with no defense.



    Pay attention to the manga if you're going to pretend you know what you're talking about.
     
  15. Typhon "The Roaring Tide"

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    Garp of all fucking people directly compared Rayleigh to Whitebeard. No he is not first mate level.

    Trying real hard to dehype Kizaru I see
     
  16. Milkydean Well-Known Member

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    :drake
    Are you dumb?You not only would need reaction speed but also movement speed to fight against a speedster.

    I did refute you by saying that the match was inconclusive.You can't prove that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh and neither I can prove that vice versa.

    Swordsmanship?I agree,but on very basic level.Markmanship?Are u kidding?A real life gunman can shoot that shit.High Firepower?LOL,Easily tanked by Marco.

    :drake

    :drake
    Do you even read yourself?He is not faster than top tiers if he is not shown to be.

    :mjlol
    Nope.He can't.Marco can easily keep up with Kizaru,Old rayleigh himself hyped people who have future sight to be one of the strongest.Katakuri easily dodged attacks from SNAKEMAN(A speed variant of an already faster form) which is far better than what Kizaru has shown till date in terms of speed.


    :rlynigga
    1st of all,I didn't even quote you.You quoted me.Second of all,can you prove Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh?
    :conspiracy
    Gonna need prove buddy
     
  17. Daisuke Jigen Blue Jacket

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    Well for starters, compare and contrast Ben Beckman (a Yonko FM) and Rayleigh's performances against Kizaru. Kizaru tried to continue firing on Law and Luffy after Ben told him not to and succeeded, but when Kizaru tried going after the SHs with Rayleigh nearby, he got cut in the face.
     
  18. Milkydean Well-Known Member

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    That's not even a fair comparison.Rayleigh was just standing next to Kizaru and took action whereas Beckman was already moving towards the plaza and never took any action to stop him.
     
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  19. Daisuke Jigen Blue Jacket

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  20. DiscoZoro20 Ōka Shichibukai

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    Did You Read what The Manga Said?:fitz9tail

    Shanks: "I'm Here to end this war."
    "Marco please Stop Fighting."

    Typical bias of You that You would hold It against Beckman that He follows His Captains Orders and assume a First Mate with a gun who Had more Than enough time to react would be unable to replicate a feat that old Ray was capable Off.
     
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  21. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    He lost to a one shot DF. One single touch and that was it.

    Kinda sucks but that is EXACTLY what the admirals have over the first mates.

    Everything else is comparable but having DF's like that exponentially increases your effectiveness.

    I mean you've seen G4 so you know it's true.
     
  22. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    :hestonpls

    the only question that needs to be asked is, DID KIZARU GET HURT by any of these fools? :mjlol
     
  23. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    he got hurt by rayleigh.
     
  24. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    my memory is failing me it seems. all i can remember was kizaru vs rayleigh was a stand still and both were locked up in a sword clash when kuma arrived and teleported the SH
     
  25. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    the infamous cheek cut.
     
  26. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    Nothing but a graze :maybe

    But i do agree that Rayleigh is at least x times stronger than current Yonkou FMs
     
  27. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    Well who knows it's rather difficult to make any kind of determination now.

    The legend card can't really work because chinjao was described as one and he got one shotted by non G4 Luffy

    And rayleigh has also lost the COC advantage because now Katakuri has been shown to have it and even mastered COO haki beyond what he (rayleigh) was capable of.

    So the rules are constantly changing....and sadly not for the better.

    Understand that it's very likely marco can be a COC user as well.

    Honestly i think it's reaching the point where what's separating the admirals from the FM is Abilities.
     
  28. Mr. Good vibes ZZZZZ

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    Eh I wouldn't really be so keen on comparing Rayleigh's situation with Chinjao's. Unlike the Later Rayleigh (who even in old age is could still be argued to be above Chinjao's prime) was still in good health, not having lost his strongest asset, but most importantly didn't have his will utterly crushed which imo is probably the single most crippling thing that can happen to someone in this manga. Look no further than Moriah to see what a man who will has been crushed looks like going from someone who at one point could have his name mentioned along side a monster like Kaido (not like that meant he stood any real chance against him) to looking like he spends most his day sitting on his seat watching tv. Hell the state Luffy was in after marineford until Jinbei knocked some sense in him was not one fit of becoming pirate king.

    As for first mates I do think we will see them 1 up Rayleigh in a specific type of of haki, ability, or even fighting style however with that they probably will have there own deficiency's in stats that might dip below where Rayleigh would be at. We already saw that Kata seems to not have that high of endurance only taking about a dozen or so g4 level hits (plus his own self inflicted wound to be fair) where has Luffy took about twice as much hits. Then of course there's Marco physical offense which despite having a zoan fruit it leaves a lot to be desired when someone who's supposed to be below him in Jozu accomplished more than he did against the admirals.

    Beyond that I do agree more or less that the admirals have straight up better offensive based fruits which solidifies them them above the first mates and while I can see someone like maybe kaido's right hand man (depending on how Oda wants him to fight) being able to out muscle or out speed an admiral with raw strength/speed etc overall I'd say the admirals from what we've seen so far are just well rounded in stats in general not really lacking in particular in one general area but who knows Oda could definitely throw something in that completely throws what we think out of whack and wouldn't put it past him to.
     
  29. Gohara Ryutoshi

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    @ Tale.


    “To make the point clearer, I'm accusing you of having double standards and showing that you do.”


    Okay but I’ve addressed the examples that I’ve seen so far. And listed multiple on the contrary. You’re basically posing the same argument that I am, except there aren’t really any examples. Accusing and telling sure, but I’m not sure about accusing and showing.


    “This would matter if Sengoku and Kong were proven to be Yonkiral-level at the same time as the other Admirals.”


    Even if I agreed with the idea that they’re inferior to the Admirals if we simply suggest that Kong, Sengoku, and Garp combine to make 2 Admirals that’s more than enough for the points that I’m making.


    “There's zero evidence that the Gorosei will be fighting in the main war.”


    Maybe not strong evidence, but zero evidence isn’t really true. They’re the highest rank in the main antagonist organization outside of the Blackbeard Pirates and they’re shown with scars and weapons suggesting that they’re more than simple authority figures. And again, Oda has stated that the main war will dwarf the Marineford war. That they would basically send the same force, and possibly even a Shichibukailess force at that seems unlikely.


    “You always fall back to a baseless assumption when something of your is challenged.”


    I’m not really sure where that accusation is coming from. I’ve addressed any counter arguments that I’ve seen. And that point is listed as a cherry on top, basically the opposite of an argument to fall back on.


    “For all you know, the WG might awaken the Ancient Weapons and the final war will dwarf the Marineford War because of that.”


    At most the World Government only has access to Uranus. Would that really replace the Shichibukai and then on top of that dwarf the other forces? That seems unlikely although evidence wise we can’t rightfully rule that out as a possibility. Although Oda hasn’t mentioned them as major obstacles. :p


    But even then, what about any participating Yonkou Crews and Revolutionaries?


    “For all you know, the War will take place between WG-allied countries and RA-allied countries. “


    True and I do think that’s the case but a lot of unnamed foot soldier type characters aren’t going to dwarf Admiral+ level forces.


    “I have not referenced a single reason why I believe Fujitora was in fact holding back here, because I think these are plainly evident in a reading of the arc”


    Then allow me to be clear: it is not obvious at all to me that Fujitora is clearly and factually holding back against Bird Cage. If those reasons are obvious then you should have no issue explaining those reasons. And not only do there need to be reasons but they need to also explain why Fujitora would intentionally allow the strong possibility of innocent characters to be murdered. It needs to be an amazing reason that would get Fujitora to do something so evil despite being such a good person.


    “we have already seen superior feats from Fujitora”


    What can Fujitora do that has superior force and is more destructive than Meteors?


    “you have cited no actual reasons to think meteors are his strongest technique”


    That the Meteors have superior force and are more destructive than any other techniques that we’ve seen so far.


    “How does the fact that some other people have strong Devil Fruits change the fact that Yonkou and Admirals are the only two categories in which every known Devil Fruit can be counted among the strongest?”


    It doesn’t necessarily change that fact, it just makes it somewhat meaningless when other types of characters also share that parallel. Yonkou First Mate Devil Fruits are some of the most impressive so far as well. Even Lord Katakuri’s which on paper seems silly is applied in a comparable way as Luffy’s but even more effectively and has other properties as well such as sticky properties and Logia type advantages.


    “As for other aspects of combat, I will say, so what?”


    So that reduces the meaning of the parallel even more.


    “The fact that we have little to no information about other possible parallels is irrelevant.”


    Not only that, but we have a significant amount of information on their degree of skills in other aspects and so far they are not at all parallel in those aspects.


    “It has been explicitly stated that the Admirals are such an obstacle”


    It has been explicitly stated that the Admirals are an obstacle, not the only or top World Government based obstacle. And again, there are obstacles that we know are obstacles without it being stated. So not really much of a parallel. And in multiple other major Shonen series, the characters that turn out to be the main antagonists are not the ones who were mentioned as obstacles.


    “I am saying that the fact that there are multiple parallels between the Yonkou and the Admirals which are shared with no else means something.”


    Top Yonkou Commander level characters are always paired with Admirals. Top Yonkou Commander level characters and Admirals are both the top ranked subordinates of the top ranked member of their organizations. There are parallels between top Yonkou Commander level characters and the Admirals.


    “The fact is that Oda, the author of this story, has repeatedly had his characters state that these two groups are the major obstacles to becoming PK. The reader,naturally and understandably, can expect this to be true, until given reason to think otherwise. That's how these stories work.”


    Not that I agree that the Admirals have been set up as the top World Government group of antagonists, but do stories work like that? Because in multiple other Shonen series that’s not how they worked. Almost no fan even knew or guessed the existence of the main antagonists in Naruto, Dragon Ball, Bleach, and Katekyo Hitman Reborn before the Arcs in which they became the main antagonists of the series.


    And there are still multiple other issues with that paragraph. For one, Oda hasn’t stated that they are “the” major obstacles. Oda has written that they are major obstacles but not “the” major obstacles. And as a writer Oda has to consider what the characters think, not what he thinks.


    And any readers are more than welcome to think of the Admirals as the top obstacles in the World Government. I understand and respect that view point.


    @ Gil.


    “he has to think about his island's safety...when he decides to stop thinking about that and make a resolve, BM's presence is nothing. On the other hand, Rayleigh's reputation made him...nuff said.”


    My point is that it’s not that Jinbe doesn’t fear Big Mam’s character, he just has more confidence in Luffy becoming Pirate King. And Jinbe is worried about the Island’s safety because of how skilled Big Mam’s character is. He’s shown that type of reaction against Big Mam’s character on multiple occasions. But when it comes to his fear of Big Mam’s character vs. his trust in Luffy, his trust in Luffy is even more.


    And to be fair, Rayleigh’s reputation is naturally based on his prime. Plus, that reaction can also easily be attributed to simply being surprised at seeing an elusive legendary figure.


    In any case I don’t disagree that Prime Rayleigh is around Yonkou level.


    “It did. Doflamingo is the most trusted expert so far when it comes to New World affairs (he deals business with most of them and is linked with Kaidou himself so...) and he said it clear: WB was not interested in PK title but he ruled in front of the throne. Ergo Shanks who seems to be equally uninterested (at least Gorosei said that he would not change the world on his own wants) aside, neither BM nor Kaidou managed to beat WB.”


    I agree with that but most of that reign has been without those disadvantages.
     
  30. shisuiuchiha5 Well-Known Member

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    benn beckman is still pointing the gun at kizaru
     
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