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The Islam Debate & Discussion Thread - Part 1

Discussion in 'Perspectives' started by Tazmo, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Darkmatter Lion's Sin of Pride

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    That is a wishful thinking.
     
  2. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Saudi hegemony is built on oil.

    Having Mecca in your territory isn't a guarantee for influence. For most of Islam's history the Caliph's capital was in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, or Turkey. Compare how none of the major Christian sects actually has its headquarters in Jerusalem.

    So when Saudi oil runs out the race is open to be the new leader of Islam. And I'm sure Pakistan will make a bid in force of them having (by then) the largest majority-Muslim population as well as nukes.

    I'm of course not saying there will be a literal political resurrection of the Mughal Empire, but the center of gravity of world Islam will probably shift to South Asia rather than the Middle East.
     
  3. Darkmatter Lion's Sin of Pride

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    Fhe problem isn't about a new leader of Islam; it's attempting to unify the Islamic world in order for them to form a new leader of Islam. You still neighboring Islamic countries at each other's throats (i.e. KSA v. Iran), then comes the conflict between the two majority sects.

    Now if there ever comes a time when the Islamic world comes to a common ground and maybe even forms something like a Pope system, that's when I can see your point all happening.
     
  4. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Specifically, the prediction is that in 2050 India + Pakistan + Bangladesh will contain 27% of the world's Muslims.

    If you throw in neighbouring Afghanistan as well it's 30%. Put Iran on top and you're at 33% - a third of all Muslims will live in the contiguous countries that speak Indo-Aryan languages.
     
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  5. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Back to my reading after a long break, and I still think the number of Ahadith in Bukhari seems improbably large.

    Muhammad's ministry was something like 20 years. From that time they've got 7000 Ahadith, that is to say 350 per year - virtually one a day!

    I realize that a lot of them are repetitions, but still. Could Muhammad's life really have been so holy that EVERY DAY he said or did something with theological implications?

    Furthermore the majority of the Bukhari Ahadith seem to take place in the Medina period, the last 10 years of his ministry. And a lot of them are as I've brought up narrated by Abu Huraira who was only with Muhammad for AFAIK the last three years of the Prophet's life, so the actual hadith "density" is much higher than one a day.
     
  6. Darkmatter Lion's Sin of Pride

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    Of course. The Hadith is more of a guidance towards how one can follow the footsteps of that man; he may not have been a prophet in terms of God/Allah granting him abilities similar to Moses or Jesus, but he could be viewed as a holy one similar to them.
     
  7. wibisana still newbie

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    I am underimpression that there are many hadith that essentially the same


    I havent read any hadith book tho.


    Because the nature of hadith that can be told by multiple sources

    I.e. Muhammad SAW do this. And witnessed by Ali RA, Aisha RA you will get two hadith out of one act
     
  8. Dark Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how common that is for Muslims? For me, before turning to agnosticism, I clinged to Deism because it still preserved my belief in a supreme creator and helped me cope with an issue that felt central to my belief. The problem with natural disasters and how the Abrahamic God seemed indifferent to them. Maybe a part of that was also what you said, it is terrifying at first to even consider that your the belief system could be false let alone toss your entire beliefs aside. A gradual desensitization process I guess.
     
  9. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    That's true, I've read that excluding repetitions and minor variations, Bukhari is like 2000 "stories".

    But that still works out to 100 stories per year, or about one every three days. Muhammad would have had to say or do something profound two times every week.

    Not impossible, but improbable.
     
  10. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    I'm of course aware that Sunnis accept that not all Ahadith are true (but differ on which ones are fake, so just to be safe they're all still kept in the collection), so I'm just doing a thought experiment on what a busy guy the Prophet must have been if all of them were true.
     
  11. Supreme King of The Alley - Lord Ashi Yaaaaay

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    Ya about a year ago I also considered myself a deist moreso than an atheist but then I thought that the idea that a God gives a damn about human beings when the entire universe is his domain is just nonsensical and comes from a more self important perspective
     
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  12. afgpride Retired Staff

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    I think belief in God is a lot more existential than a belief in the canon surrounding worldly prophets that claim to speak on behalf of it. For me it was easier to digest that Muhammad was just an Arabian merchant-turned-warlord that appropriated Abrahamic theology and rode a historical wave into conquest than it was to consider that a transcendental deity wasn't (or possibly wasn't) responsible for my existence. I took solace in Deism since it preserved my belief in God while also reconciling a lot of questions about religion and mythology.

    The reason I didn't stay a deist is because I eventually grew comfortable with admitting I don't know, and I realized that the concept of a sole, all-powerful deity is actually just as absurd as the concept of a meaningless existence. Such a deity would either have had to come from a super-omnipotent-deity its senior or have existed meaninglessly on its own, which contradicts the same logic that is used to propose its existence. The reason God is so inherently attractive to humans is multi-fold, from social conditioning to our primal inclinations toward authority figures, but this attraction is a fundamentally non-rational one.
     
  13. Dark Well-Known Member

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    I agree. The moment you challenge your beliefs in the canon (for instance, because you overcame the fear based conditioning that prevented you from challenging them), you're left with the existential burden which is heavier. The burden which is responsible for the rise of ideas and concepts such as religion throughout our species history.

    Can you elaborate on this?

    One of the arguments that I came across for this attraction claims that it's instinctive than a rational one. That is, God has created us with an instinct to worship him. I don't find it appealing because this instinct can be explained from an evolutionary perspective. I think ultimately I gave up on Deism because I found the argument from inconsistent revelations to be solid. Also the more I read in anthropology and comparative religion and the more I understand how we are products of our environment the more evident it seems that religion is man-made.
     
  14. afgpride Retired Staff

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    The most common logical argument made for God is "we can't come from nothing". It claims that because it doesn't make sense for us to come from nothing, or for all the reality we can feasibly measure or surmise to simply "exist" or come into "existence" from nothing, there must be an all powerful prime mover.

    But this is circular reasoning, because that prime mover they've injected at the beginning would have to be exempt from this logical problem. It's reasoning that presumes everything except God requires a cause. Why doesn't God require a cause, if a cause is fundamentally and logically necessary for everything? Just because. It's opening up a fresh paradox to close an existing one. The idea of an all powerful deity never "coming into existence", always being, not being caused by anything, contradicts the argument that nothing may exist without a cause. The argument that nothing may exist without a cause except God, which is what it distils down to, is thus circular.
     
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  15. xmysticgohanx Zoro > Law

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    so how did something come from nothing?
     
  16. afgpride Retired Staff

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    Are you assuming anything I said is contingent on having the answer for this, or are you just curious?
     
  17. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    It is admittedly just as hard for me to fathom some precedent of nothingness as it is to fathom...somethingness. And I'm not being cute. My brain has just as hard a time gripping the idea of an eternal -nothing- that sparked into something as it does the idea of an eternal -something- that is a precedence unto itself. 'Nothing' is just as intrinsically confusing and counterintuitive for human imagining as the alternative god.

    I'm secular, but I'm an uneducated secular and sometimes find myself just as baffled by the precedent conundrum as the religious folk.
     
  18. afgpride Retired Staff

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    And that's precisely the point. Either way we slice it, we're doomed with a paradox that's beyond the interpretation of our simian brains. You can't use a paradox as a logical finish line. What then, is the most rational position in the face of two paradoxes and our inescapable ignorance? Admitting that we don't know. How you live your life beyond that baseline of intellectual humility is a practical exercise.
     
  19. MO Well-Known Member

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    do you still pray or fast?
     
  20. afgpride Retired Staff

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    I put my hands out for dua during family gatherings to be polite, sometimes fast but not for religious reasons. I go to the mosque for funerals to pay my respects, that about it covers all of it.
     
  21. MO Well-Known Member

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    How did your parents react?
     
  22. xmysticgohanx Zoro > Law

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    the bottom, I’m agnostic between atheism and deism
     
  23. afgpride Retired Staff

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    The short answer is (surprise) we don't know.

    The long and tedious answer is that "nothing" is as much a semantic issue as a philosophical one. It can mean material space or abstract non-material concepts. Light can be a thing or omnipotent space elves can be a thing (without having to actually exist in any capacity beyond the conceptual). Insofar as "nothing" describes the absence of material space, we don't understand how something can come from nothing, just that it sometimes does (according to theoretical physics). Virtual particles are an example of this, which are fluctuations in a quantum field that pop in and out of existence and which can't be modelled to have a material cause. There's a lot of spooky stuff in physics where the "what" is observed but the "how" draws a blank, this is one of them.

    But let's zoom out further. "Nothing" is not only the lack of material space but also the lack of any concept or idea that could possibly be dreamed up, in fact or in concept. We're getting a little vague and chaotic here but let's continue to zoom out for the sake of the philosophical problem. How can anything which we can observe, measure or conceptualize, which either exists in fact or in abstraction, simply be if not caused to be by a preceding event or source? We don't know. And this is a problem that is shared both by theists and non-theists alike, since as I mentioned earlier, an all-powerful God is itself not-nothing and has to have its existence established with the same rules.
     
  24. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    The Greek philosopher Zeno spent a lot of time thinking about this kind of stuff. Some of it paraphrased by Plato.

    E.g. our everyday experience tells us that everything can be broken into smaller pieces if you apply enough force. A rod that is 1 m long can be sawed into two rods that are each 0.5 m. And each of those can be split into rods that are 0.25 m. And so on indefinitely.

    But that would seem to suggest that there is never any "bottom" to breaking stuff. For any super-wealthy object you can imagine, you can always proceed to imagine a smaller object that is half the size the previous one. In modern terms, if scientists say super-strings are the smallest thing there is, then what about half a super-string?

    The end result seems to be that everything is made up of "nothing". The matter just seems to dissipate the closer you inspect it, like how a cloud of mist looks solid from afar but becomes transparent if you walk up to it.

    ---

    The opposite end of the spectrum being that everything is actually "one" and that the division of the universe into separate objects is just an illusion.

    ---

    AFAIK people say Zeno is committing a fallacy by assuming that something that's true in mathematics (you can imagine both infinitely large and infinitely small numbers) is also true in the physical world. I.e. imagining "half a super-string" might stay just a thought experiment if there is never going to be a small enough knife to cut a whole super-string in two, so a whole super-string might be the smallest thing we're ever going to actually encounter.
     
  25. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    "One who is dressed in this life may be naked in the next" (Bukhari 2:226)

    This is a good proverb. I'm gonna start using it. :hm
     
  26. wibisana still newbie

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  27. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    @wibisana

    Is it true that the Sultan of Yogyakarta actually stopped using the title caliph (even in a watered-down version) in 2015?

    If so, his hasn't been updated to reflect this fact. It still gives his title as "Ngarsa Dalem Sampeyan Dalem Ingkang Sinuwun Kangjeng Sri Sultan Hamengku Buwono Senapati ing Ngalogo Ngabdurrokhman Sayidin Panatagama Khalifatullah ingkang jumeneng kaping X"

    I was curious why the Wiki article on the Caliphate doesn't contain even a footnote about Yogyakarta, given how it mentions other obscure caliphates like the Sokoko Caliphate in Nigeria. You'd think other people would be as fascinated as me by the fact that the world's largest Muslim country actually had a guy with a variation of the caliph title, even if he didn't actually claim rulership over all of Islam. (c.f. how the leader of the Coptic Orthodox Church uses the title "pope")

    So I did some digging and found some saying he dropped the title so that he'll be able to transfer the throne to his daughter, because the misogynist imams say a woman can't be caliph and therefore she can't have that as part of her title.

    If you can confirm this I'd like to put a line in the Caliphate article about it. It's kind of hilarious that this "caliph" was apparently so obscure that nobody noticed him renouncing the title. xD
     
  28. wibisana still newbie

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    Yeah he did that
    Admitedly i missed that news

    He did that just to show his resolve on making his daughter to be next ruler.
    Aside his brother and few of brother's followers the main obstacle would be national level congress. They did hate him. Want to make Yogyakarta have election (basically strip his lifetime hereditial governorship).

    While it is arleady sure that if he died his daugther would be next sultan (noone can change it) but it need congress approval to make her gorvernor.
    And they use this weak ass clause back in 45 that sultan have to register his name and his "wife". So while there is no ruling of having female sultan or female Yogyakarta governor. This stupid line that says have to register his wife name is used to imply that it has to be male.

    The people og Yogyakarta itself didnt really care. Hell they even prefer the daugther
     
  29. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Do you know when the Sultan of Yogyakarta started calling himself Caliph?

    Because if I'm gonna make a paragraph on Wiki I want both a start and an end date. If it says "Yogyakarta Caliphate (????-2015)" it'll look like I don't know anything. xD

    Obviously the sultanate as such was founded in 1755, but I can see that at least the founder of the preceding Mataram Sultanate (1587-1755) also called himself caliph. But the English-language articles about his successors don't say clearly if they were also caliphs, so I'm having trouble determining if there is an unbroken caliphal tradition from 1587 to 2015 or if Mataram was just a one-off thing for that one guy.
     
  30. wibisana still newbie

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    Prolly since the founding of Yogyakarta (as the video explained back then)

    Yogyakarta was formed because some prince of Surakarta Chaliphate want to rule so he asked Dutch backing and rebeled and make new kingdom in Yogkakarta.

    While in Surakarta they also use Caliph title if we want to trace back it would take time.

    Iirc the Kindgom was going south (literal goung to south direction) overtime.

    Demak (1st Islam kingdom in Java was in north coast)
    Pajang (after Demak fell it declare independence) it located near present day Surakarta
    Mataram (which eventually become yogyakarta and surakarta)
    Mataram founder prolly the 1st using the title

    Panembahan Senopati ing Alaga Sayidin Panatagama Khalifatullah Tanah Jawa

    I'll check further later
     
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