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The Islam Debate & Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by T4R0K, Mar 18, 2007.

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  1. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    Well, you guys brought up the verse as proof of a miracle of... some sort.
     
  2. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    I tried to explain already. If you see nothing special to it, that's fine too.

    Maybe they see it as a miracle because they already have faith. I think that if God was to split the moon now, those who have faith will see it as a miracle and those who don't would go as far as doubting their senses.

    The bottom line is: I believe you shouldn't try to rely on a miracle to acquire faith. At least I know I wouldn't. Miracles are there to strengthen one's faith, not create it. I really think that acquiring faith is a long-term process. It's not "OMG HOW DID IT HAPPEN k I believe now". That's just a theory though. :laugh
     
  3. WT #for the watch

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    Majin, I know that Abu Lahab hated Islam more than you do.

    I know at any opportunity, you would love to prove it and Allah wrong. So suppose Allah wrote in the Quran: Majin will never become Muslim.

    Wouldn't you pretend to be a Muslim just to shove it in our face?
     
  4. maj1n Active Member

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    But the story goes, as you guys claim, that God told the FATE of Abu Lahad.

    So it is impossible for him to avoid it if you presume God is all-knowing.

    In other words, it is an illogical story.

    It would be like me writing a piece of computer code to compute 1+1=2, then challenging the computer to give me another answer other then 2.

    It is a silly and meaningless challenge.

    Any religion can challenge any other person from another religion and say 'convert to my religion or else my religion is right'.

    I have a challenge for your God.

    Make this post the last post i will ever make on this forums, else your God doesn't exist.

    See how meaningless such challenges are?

    If you are truly serious and believe in the flawed logic of that Abu Lahad story, my challenge is then valid, want to see if your God really exists after this post?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  5. maj1n Active Member

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    Looks like your God didn't meet the challenge.
     
  6. WT #for the watch

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    My God doesn't need to lol ...

    Besides your Challenge is Pathetic.

    Islam at that time was rising. People would do anything from stopping this rise. Pretending to be a Muslim would have done this.
     
  7. maj1n Active Member

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    So Abu Lahab can just say he doesn't need too.

    I'm glad you agree the challenge is pathetic, it just shows how brainwashed you are that you can somehow support Islam's same challenge, but then say the exact same one from a non-Muslim is pathetic.

    Islam is on the rise? so is atheism today, since Islam rejects Atheism, why doesn't your God meet the challenge?

    exactly the same situation, reversed, but you don't like it now.
     
  8. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    So therefore,
    If this guy had pretended to convert, he would have still gone to hell.
    and
    If this guy actually converted, he could still be sent to hell for previous crimes.

    In which case, this entire argument is invalid. Because him pretending to convert, or converting didn't lead to him not going to hell. Therefore he couldn't make god wrong by converting.

    Which is why your arguments always fail, because they are always based on your double standard that your religion is greater. When you look at it objectively your arguments fall apart.

    No, it wouldn't prove god wrong.
    If Abu Lahab was pretended to convert to Islam he still would have gone to hell. Even if he converted in earnest, there is still nothing to stop god sending him to hell.

    No, it wouldn't have to be. As him converting doesn't guarantee that he would go to heaven.
     
  9. WT #for the watch

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    The Challenge is not the same. The Challenge was given by God himself and thus, Abu Lahab failed it. The Challenge wasn't given by Muhammad. Even if it was, he is still a prophet level person, much higher than your average people like me or you. You giving a challenge is not the same as God giving a challenge.

    Because he doesn't need to. Regardless of what you believe, he still exists and time does not effect him. He will give your chance to repent on this earth and when the time comes, you will be either punished or rewarded.
     
  10. Zaru ________________________________ Advisor

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    Assume I get hit by a train tomorrow

    Did I get my chance to repent?
     
  11. WT #for the watch

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    Yes you have.
     
  12. Zaru ________________________________ Advisor

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    What if I instead barely survived the train accident and start to truly believe in god right afterwards? He never gave me the chance to do so :edu
     
  13. guenouni Member

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    A necessary clarification:
    Surat Al-Masadd was the 6th Surat (1) to be revealed (There are 114 Surat in Quran). It happened 10 years before the Battle of Badr (2). At that time, there were only a few Muslims, most of them were poor. This was a great chance for Abu Lahab to stop Islam from spreading at an early age.
    Abu Lahab was well known (3) for always saying the opposite of what Muhammad said. He used to wait until Muhammad finishes talking with a group. Then ask them: "What did Muhammad say?". "If he said white, then it's black. If he said night, then it's day" ...

    (1)
    (2) The expansion of Islam began after the .
    (3)
     
  14. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    No, they are not.

    If miracles strengthen your faith, then you don't really have faith at all. Believing that someone has power beyond their mortal frame does not equate to faith in God.

    Most of the time, when a Manifestation comes, the people who believed in the last Manifestation demand signs to "soothe their hearts" before they will believe. That's why Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The existence of Moses and the evidence of His works themselves were supposed to be sufficient unto themselves if people would truly claim to believe; otherwise, even if a man made people rise from the dead, it wouldn't make a difference.

    Jesus healed the sick, but that in and of itself was no miracle; it was simply Jesus redeeming the sins of the Jewish people who came before Him. Muhammad wrote the Qur'an, but that wasn't a miracle either; it was merely Him doing His best to preserve what He saw as the Word of God. I can go on, but these two examples and the parable are sufficient to demonstrate my point.

    To wit: miracles prove nothing, and if you need a miracle to have faith, as far as I'm concerned you will never have it.
     
  15. maj1n Active Member

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    So wait lemme get this straight.

    God gave a challenge to a mortal, and that mortal failed, this is significant how?

    What i'd like to know is why your God is so immature as to challenge a mortal human, that would be like me challenging a baby, or perhaps challenging sperm.

    Abu Lahad didn't fail the challenge, there is no challenge.

    If God states your fate is hell, you cannot avoid it, if God challenges you to try and avoid it, he is being a stupid idiot

    And Abu Lahab (according to you) didn't believe in Islam, so why does he have to try and meet a challenge from an imaginary God from his perspective.

    It is fucking amazing you cannot see that you are basically in Abu Lahab's shoes.

    Agreed, if one requires miracles to strengthen ones faith, one is actually searching for evidence to validate one's faith, hence he has no real faith.
     
  16. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    That's what I said.
     
  17. Adonis Logical Positivist Nazi

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    The idea that faith can be "strengthened" is asinine.

    Faith is a binary concept: you either have it or you don't. The second you start requiring evidence, as a miracle can be considered, is the second it ceases to be faith.
     
  18. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    I don't agree. I'm going to quote Hugiboo because he's already clarified this.

    Simply put, what you're referring to is belief, not faith. You can read more on that .

    Of course, it depends on the definition you choose for faith, but I think it's more appropriate to understand it here as trust. Perhaps this wasn't clear in my posts because I was slightly confused myself (ie. using the verb believe when I should have used trust). In the end though, my theory boiled down to the fact that faith in God is something you acquire gradually. You learn to trust Him as life goes on.
     
  19. maj1n Active Member

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    How do you trust God for which there is no evidence of?
     
  20. Spirit Active Member

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    Seriously?. Are you really....REALLY that stupid maj1n?

    If you have established an evidence, it will no longer be a matter of faith. You wouldn't have faith in God's existence, you will have knowledge in God's existence instead. With faith, the belief in God is not justified, it need not be justified. If you or God or whoever requires proofs, evidents, justifications, you are demanding knowledge, not faith.

    To trust Santa to deliver me present every Christmas, ALL I need is faith in him, for the idea of it's NON-existence will not support the idea that he can, at all deliver me anything. But I believe in Santa and that suffices. Whether he actually exists or not, whether he delivers or not, whether I made a stupid decision to trust him to do so or not, is of another question.

    The point is that the bare minimum to have trust in whatever, is faith. To justify that trust, now that asks for something else. But you have to ask, that's how you put trust in a being that has no evidence of its existence.
     
  21. maj1n Active Member

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    Deimos is not using the definition of faith as 'belief without evidence'.

    As he stated.

    The 'Faith' he is using is a confidance/trust in someone else.

    So what i am asking is how do you gradually acquire this trust for an entity for which there is no evidence of?

    It is implied Deimos in fact looks for evidence.

     
  22. Al-Yasa ⎷⎛⎝⎠⊙⏝⏝⊙⎝⎠⎷⎛

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    everyone has a diffrent opinion on faith
     
  23. Outlandish Active Member

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    The thing you gotta love about Islam the only apostates are the people who are muslim by passport and never really practiced. You never get high scholars or proper practicing muslims apostate.. but high pastors educational elite hindu's sikhs and people from all denominations are reverting that's the beauty of the Quran.
     
  24. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    No, your wrong.

    Here is an example.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBY5VbC6rvU&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

    You are perpetrating a fallacy, and a bad one at that.
     
  25. SogeQueen Member

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    This post really angers me. I was a Muslim up until a year ago. I prayed, fasted, read the Quran, etc. I didn't commit any major sins and made an effort to be a good practising Muslimah. It annoys me that some Muslims have the attitude that people who were religious Muslims can't lose their faith and have legitimate reasons for becoming apostates. It happens and generally it's difficult for those people who do leave Islam to be open about it because of how severely taboo it is in Muslim cultures.
     
  26. Outlandish Active Member

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    If you really sincerely prayed fasted etc you would never leave Islam.. didn't commit any major sins it was probably because of culture.

    I'm watching that video SP.

    Well if a few actions of extremist made him question his faith it wasn't very strong in the first place.
     
  27. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    A few actions of a extremist didn't make him lose his faith. If you watch the video you will see...


    you know what never mind, your just going to continue your BS fallacy no matter what I say. You will just make up some idiotic argument to try and say he wasn't a "true" Muslims.

    Your argument here is based on a denial and a fallacy, and anyone with half a brain can see it for what it is.
     
  28. SogeQueen Member

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    I hadn't missed a single fast since I was 9 (except of course during that week :redface) and I prayed 5 times a day. I don't understand why that is so hard to believe. Making an effort to not commit major sins did have a lot to do with my conservative upbringing, but it also had to do with fearing Allah and his punishment.
     
  29. maj1n Active Member

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    Outlandish, do you know what you show? you show far more concern over your religions legitimacy then peoples lives.

    It is this disturbing mindset that gives rise to terrorist Muslims, that allows muslims to beat their wives, and to kill apostates.

    Your reaction to the youtube posted by SP and your reaction to sogequeen perfectly emphasises this, you will make any arbitrary bullshit insult to downplay their prior faith in Islam because you feel them leaving it is a threat to the legitimacy of your religion.
     
  30. guenouni Member

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    If they disbelieve, then verily, Allah stands not in need of any of all that exists.
    "الله غني عن العالمين"
     
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