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The Itachi debate thread. Everything about Itachi goes here beyatches! (spoilers)

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki Archives' started by Kimi Sama, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. Kimi Sama

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    I'm sure most of you, like me, are annoyed how almost every thread that is even vaguely linked to Itachi swiftly developes into a raging debate about him.

    So... I thought I'd see if making a thread for debating everything about Itachi would help this problem. If this thread does well, I might sticky it later.

    Some of the most persistent recurring debates are;

    -The whole Itachi > Oro = Jiraiya thing. There doesnt seem to be a solution to this so it reappears constantly.

    -Just how strong Itachi is at all - many hold him in deity status while some think he's actualy very weak.

    -Just how uber the Mangekyou Sharingan is.

    -Just why he killed the Uchihas and whether it really was him at all.

    -
    Spoiler:
    Thoughts on the Mangekyou making Itachi go blind


    -Debates about Uchiha Shisui, the third Mangekyou user, and what the Uchiha clan's secret is also belong in here.

    I'm hopin this thread will have a similar effect to the stickied Rasengan vs Chidori thread, and help to absorb the endlessly recurring debates.

    Also, despite the spoiler warning in the title I'd appreciate it if people could wrap spoiler tags around future plot points.

    And... yeah thats all. Feed back much appreciated ^_^
     
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  2. Amaterasu

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    This is what I know/think.

    Oro said that Itachi was stronger than him.

    When fighting Jiraiya, Itachi, together with Kisame choose to flee instead of fight him.

    I don't think that the mangekyou is as powerfull as everybody think, seeing as he could have killed Jiraiya in the hotel.

    And I would like to know when Oro said that Itachi was more powerfull than him ( anime episode).
     
  3. Hef

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    Feedback appreciated? This is going to get ugly when *cencored people* get here... :notrust Yeah the idea is nice and it might work but it's going to form in to a war. :laugh
    Anyways. I'll start.

    I still believe that the only reason why Orochimaru is afraid of Itachi is the Sharingan. Sure he might be afraid of the MS, too, like every reasonable shinobi is, but the main point is the plain old sharingan. The Sharingan can predict and copy jutsus and counter them, and Oro being a jutsu freak he is, the sharingan is just the natural enemy.
    Sasuke might have the three tomoe sharingan, but he is nowhere near his brother in skill using it. Same with Kakashi, and his blood isn't Uchiha, so...
     
  4. Lord_Bucket

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    To check his strenght, the power of Mangekyou Sharingan...
     
  5. abz_

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    alot of this is IMO as there is very little evidence, i will try to reference what i to the manga if it is there (or if i can remember) otherwise it will be IMO.

    we know that the greatest advantage the sharingan is the ability to "see" what your opponant will do. as oro's most moves involve jutsus, the sharingan easly counters this. it is true oro could have summoned during the fight but we have seen both naruto and sasuke kill these snakes and they were gennins. the only summon that can be of any use is manda, but he is a risk at best, and oro summoning him for only one person, i don't he will be very co-operative.
    however to stop itachi using the techs that come with the MS will prove to be difficult. if you get close to the guy he will use the torture tech or the black fire tech, both affective. to attack from a distance will prove difficult, we have seen itachi plan fights down to the last detail, by giving him space will only give him an advantage, plus there will be a greater distance required for the attacks to travel, which means that there is more time for itachi's sharingan to "see".
    if oro goes reckless and fights itachi with all he has, he may kill him, afterall oro objective was to capture and KO itachi, not kill him. if oro becomes reckless he will just kill him, which will be against his objective.
    i believe that if oro and itachi were fighting to the death, we would have a more interesting outcome, oro not being able to go all out where as itachi was would lead to a stalemate or oro dieing.
    i believe in the fight oro underestimated him, and got his ass handed to him. also i think oro would have killed itachi if the fight turned sour, but because he underesitmated him, he delt him more damage then oro expected, thus causing oro to retreat.
    i think itachi and kisame retreating in the hotel, because itachi had used his MS too much in the day and had to rest to get his stamina back. i'm not sure if kisame asks a question or makes a statement, but because the sentance is starting with a why i am going to assume it is a question ("why is a retreat necessary for you..."). kisame asks itachi why he is retreating, itachi replies he is retreating beacuse he needs to rest to get his stamina back. but the way the question is asked, kisame feels even in a tired state itachi can still hurt jiraiya or they can still get naruto.
    because of this i'd say that itachi is on the same level as the sannin or slightly below them. but that is because of the massive advantage the MS and it's techs give to him. the only disadvantage he has against the sannin (especially jiraiya, i think jiraiya done more s-rank missions then any sannin) is the experience, itachi is lacking in that department compared to the sannin.
    we have yet to see jiraiya or oro go all out, and we have yet to see the rumored third tech that accompanies the MS.


    we don't actullly know yet. but a clue to it is that kisame indirectly admits itachi is stronger than him when they were retreating from jiraiya. "why is a retreat necessary for you..." there is an emphasis on "you" not we. also kisame never states that he can take jiraiya alone or implies this in anything he says.

    in terms of the techs given by the MS:
    we need to see it being used against an opponant in a fight, we need to see if it can be dodged, how it actually works and if there are any weak points to it (e.g: does the person temporaraly turn blind after using the techs of the MS). once we see this we will know exactly how strong the MS is. but let me make it clear, the MS is strong. IMO the MS makes itachi so strong without it he would not be in the akatsuki.

    i have two theories on this.
    1) itachi just killed them. why he killed them i'm not too sure about, it could be that he felt they didn't deserve to even have the sharingan if they were not willing to unlock the MS. or maybe the sharingan was used for war and now it was being used to keep the peace, which itachi didn't respect as he may have felt that it should be used for what it is and not to dress it up as something nice. afterall it seems public knowledge that itachi killed his clan.

    2) oro got into his head about all the bs about containers and shit. itachi reads about the clan scrolls (oro prob told him where to find it, or it could have been his best friend shisu (sp)) and then kills his best friend after realising the truth of the sharingan, only geniuses get it and it is for killing and only the true power of the sharingan will be obtained once the killing intent has been proved. i think that itachi may have killed shisu, or shisu may have known about the MS and asked itachi for a fight to the death and the best man gets the MS. anyway once itachi has the MS, oro tries to get itachi, so he can use him as a container, once itachi realises that his soul is assimilated into oro, and oro is in control and it isn't a symbiote like system. itachi fights for his life and, oro underestimating him (afterall oro thinks he is worthy of being hokage, and he is one of the sannin, what can a little bot do to him), gets his ass handed to him. oro, failing to criticly hurt itachi in their fight goes and kills the whole uchiha clan as revenge. itcahi failing to save anyone, finds sasuke and gives him a lifes' lesson on how to become stronger.
    then leaves.
    why doesn't itachi kill oro? cos he is tired and fighting him in his state will only result in him dieing. also oro is probably long gone.
    why does everyone (including akatsuki) say itachi killed his clan? cos if itachi was to say that oro killed his clan before he could get there and save them will only show weakness, which will probably lead to him never getting into akatsuki.
    why didn't itachi tell sasuke the truth? sasuke would have wanted to come with itachi; baggage itachi didn't need
    (itachi: kisame i just need to drop sasuke off to daycare.
    or
    itachi: kisame i just need to cook something for sasuke, growing childern need a healthy diet)

    itachi may have felt sasuke was not ready to face the thruth.

    out of the two the latter is more of a romantic one, where fate causes itachi to become a bad guy and pass the evil tutilage onto sasuke.

    Spoiler:
    if anything it is temporary and happens after it is used. but on the other hand, maybe over a long duration if the MS is used constantly, it could lead to blindness.


    as stated in the secone theory, if shisui had a role to play, he may have known and agreed with itachi for a battle to the death. otherwise itachi poisned him (there were no wounds).


    this is all pretty much i have to say about itachi, i hope when ppl read this they will see i don't have a biased opinion (as some ppl have seem to imply that i hate itachi for some reason)

    sorry for any crap spelling, in a rush.

    ABZ
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2005
  6. Lord_Bucket

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    I'm pretty sure that he killed them to check himself, to check if he's powerfull enough. He left Sasuke becouse (*and he says it) he was not worth killing, he was so week that Itachi knew he'll beat Sasu easily. The rest of Uchichas were more powerfull, so Itachi checked if he can kill everybody... Easy, when u think about it.
     
  7. Kimi Sama

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    Haha yeah...I have a good idea of who you mean, and things wont be pretty, most likely.
    Still, Jiraiya sama is perminantly banned now, so perhaps we can have some semblance of an actualy debate afterall.

    I'll start responding to people's ideas later, but for now I'll voice my own thoughts.

    Hehe, re-reading my list made me realise why the Itachi debates are neverending - Kishimoto has been so goddamn vauge about Itachi! None of these matters have actualy had a concrete answer.

    Anyway;

    -Itachi and the Sannin
    Actualy I guess "Ninin" would be a better term - Tsunade doesnt figure into it.
    Anyway, as has been mentioned by hefaistion, Oro's idea of stength in a ninja is a little warped. He has stated he believes the ninja who knows the most techniques is strongest, and Itachi, as master of the Sharingan, is obviously a massive threat because of this.
    My 2 cents then, is that Jiraya > Itachi, and Oro probably > Itachi as well, but is afraid of the Sharingan.

    -Itachi's strength
    He is indeed very uber. He was completely owning Kakashi when they met on the bridge, theres no denying that. In a straight one on one fight, Kakashi would have been killed.
    He definatly isnt invincible, of course, but he's stronger then Konoha's best jounin, and he's strong enough to make the Orochimaru afraid.

    -The Mangekyou Sharingan and it's uberness
    It really is that uber. The fact that Itachi gets tired from it is irrelevent when you consider the fact he used two Tsukiyomi and an Amataresu in one day, and that both of these attacks can instantly kill anyone. He's got any one on one fight in the bag.

    -The Uchiha massacre
    I think Itachi really did do it, and he really did it for the reasons he said. He wanted a way to test his strengh, so he killed them all. Additionally, his contempt for the clan was reaching a peak. They didnt deserve the name Uchiha in his eyes, so he killed them.
    As for Sasuke, he left him alive and taunted him to get stronger because he wanted Sasuke to get stronger because he wants to use Sasuke to test his strength

    -
    Spoiler: Manga stuff
    Thoughts on the Mangekyou making Itachi go blind
    Since Kakashi stated that he had found out the MS damaged eyesight with use, and Itachi did not contradict him, so I believe this is true. Just how fast it damages eyes and if Itachi will go blind are unknown factors, of course. A bit of proof I just realised is the fact Itachi cast genjutsu on Kakashi's kagebunshin, when normally his Sharingan would be able to distinguish it was a fake.



    -Shisui
    I think Itachi really did kill him. Faking a corpse when the police force have the Sharingan seems very unlikely. Additionally, as far as we know the MS definatly needs the user's best friend to be killed, and Shisui was indeed Itachi's best friend.

    -The third Mangekyou
    I've really got no idea about who it is. The real question here is how Itachi knows who it is, I think
     
  8. genjo sanzo

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    it's in the manga too, but its in ep. 81 Orochimaru says" I'd have had no problems if Uchiha Itachi was under my control. That seems to be an impossible dream, however. He is stronger than I." he also states that is the reason why he left akatsuki there. This is at about 7min. 30 secs in.

    My idea is that Itachi was worn out after using tsukiyomi foolishly twice, but he still chose to retreat with kisame. This is because he knew that he would have trouble dealing with Jiraiya there. This may be because he was tired, they were being digested in a giant frog, or because he just can't completely own Jiraiya. I'm still not sure on this one.

    I think Itachi is a bit lower than the sannin, maybe better than oro(or maybe a little bit tsunade). Right now he hasn't shown any true amazing strength, but has shown speed and some smart battle rues.(like against kakashi w/shuriken fake). He's beaten 2 Konoha's higher jounin with ease, even a genjutsu specialist in genjutsu. So i say Itachi is strong, just idk how strong.

    Mangekyou depends on how fast it is. The 2 attacks so far are fatal, but it hasn't been used mid battle yet. Some people r saying that it takes him a few seconds to close his eyes and some say it's instant. I think that the eyes closing part is more dramatic pause in the anime, because that could just be more like him blinking in the manga. The feared mangekyou wouldn't be that great if it took 6 sec. to work. It is also said that u can get caught in a jutsu just from looking at it, so i don't think it takes long.

    Spoiler:
    I don't think Itachi is going blind. When kakashi asked Itachi how his eyesight was, and Itachi was all" Kakashi-san, u couldn't have."
    IMO he was suprised Kakashi knew he was another person's body. When he was fighting, he wasn't seeing any movements beforehand and said he couldn't use mangekyou. This is because Itachi could move the body around and do normal jutsu, but the body didn't REALLY have the sharingan, just the illusion of sharingan eyes. Kakashi could tell this, and knew he did not have sharingan powers in that body.

    the blind Itachi FC pics still kickass tho
     
  9. Kabuto_o

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    Itachi said that only a sharingan user can beat him, it cannot be easier than that : p
    But the real question is if oro was referring to that itachi was stronger than him before or after he lost his arms.

    It's impossible to say who is stronger. The last manga chapter before the akatsuki arc. When akatsuki had the meeting, some guy said that if they all attack oro the success rate is pretty high.

    Oro say itachi is stronger than him, but the akatsuki says all of them is no match for him, impossible to say..

    Why itachi and kisame ran away when they was fighting jiraya was probably because the whole story would be ruined if they killed him, think about it.
     
  10. Uchiha_Sharing@n

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    Oro is not as strong as Itachi he even admits it, its not because he lost his arms or anything. Oro left akatsuki because Itachi was stronger then him thats when he still had arms, when he admits it he doesnt have arms but you can tell that he knows itachi is better then him with arms or whatever.


    He is one of the strongest that they have shown so far(not the strongest), hes not scared of any1, when he fights he shows little effort and wins easier. Hes not weak if u ppl think he is then i guess every1 in Naruto is weak.


    The MS is prob the best technique or bloodlinie since only a few can aquire it.


    I dont think he did it but itachi states that he did it because he wanted to test his powers, if he really wanted to test his powers then i think he should do it against the akatsuki leader or the ones stronger then him.
     
  11. Amaterasu

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    Thanks Genjo.

    And about Jiraiya vs Itachi...

    Itachi himself said, "If we both [ Itachi and Kisame] fought him, we would both be killed". So, Jiraiya >>> Itachi
     
  12. SasuRyu

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    Mangekyou Sharingan while being extremely powerful (we probably haven't seen its true power yet) is also a dangerous skill for the user. We know it drains them of quite abit of chakra and
    Spoiler:
    from recent information its quite likely that it deteriorates the users vision overtime eventually leading to blindness. Maybe this explains why Itachi always has his normal sharingan activated.
    So as for it being the best technique i'm not sure, as the bad points are just as strong as the good points. But there is no doubt it is powerful

    Itachi probably would beat Oro in a fight because of two things
    1) as noted on countless occasions, Oro is a jutsu freak who specializes in ninjutsu (i think). The sharingan is the worst possible match up for this style due to its copying and predicting hand seals. And as Itachi is a master of the sharingan, while the fight would be tight, Itachi would probably win this
    2) I saw something mentioned somewhere noting that Oro lets his fear get to him too much. He probably could give Itachi a decent fight and wear the Uchiha out quite alot. But due to his fear he doesn't realise this. The fear of death is what he fears too much.

    just my two cents on the matter :p
     
  13. Kimi Sama

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    Exactly.
    For those that dont get it, here in lies the problem

    Orochimaru claims that Itachi is more powerful then him. So Itachi > Oro
    Itachi states that Jiraiya would have killed himself and Kisame. So Jiraiya > Itachi
    Orochimaru and Jiraiya are, as far as we can tell, equals in strength. So Jiraiya = Orochimaru. If anything, Orochimaru is stronger then Jiraiya since he defeated Jir when he left the village.

    The problem is that Itachi is apparently stronger then Orochimarubut weaker then Jiraiya, whilst Oro and Jir are equals, so it doesnt add up.

    Anyway, nice to see this thread doing well so far. If this keeps up I'll sticky it.
     
  14. Hef

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    I don't see a problem here. The simplest way to say this is that A>B B>C is not A>C here, since they are all near each other's power level and their fighting styles are different.
    It's just that Oro's style is not suited for Itachi, but Jiraiya's is, and Itachi is well... not suited to fight Jiraiya. :D
     
  15. iaido

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    I thought we settled everything in the last thousand threads. The general consensus remained the same since last time. Everyone came to the conclusion that

    iaido > Itachi

    Itachi is overrated by too many people, underrated by some.
     
  16. sadated_peon

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    I think my main concern is when Itachi joined the Akatasuki, and how it relates to the killing of his clan.

    I think that Itachi didn?t join until after he left the leaf, and the killing of his clan was an entrance exam into the Akatsuki to prove himself.

    I don?t think Oro left 7 years ago (pre-time skip)
    And here is why.
    well that?s what I think.
     
  17. abz_

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    one of the reasons why i don't think that itachi had to kill his whole clan to obtain membership of akatsuki is because kisame never killed his ties in his village. if itachi had to kill his clan, then i believe kismane would have had to do a similar feat such as kill the 7 mist sword ninjas. however
    Spoiler:
    sasori does have the corpse of the 3rd kazekage, could that have been sasori's entrance fee? (i doubt he beat him 1v1 i think he probably poisened him)


    also if there was a fight between oro and itachi, then i doubt oro went all out. remember oro needed itachi alive to perform the fushi no jutsu. so he couldn't use the techs that may have rendered itachi dead. if it were a battle to death then the outcome may have been different.

    (sorry for bad spelling)

    ABZ
     
  18. lekki

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    Spoilers are in here.

    All things stated are as I perceive it. It's about opinons after all.
    If we want to get totally literal and take all things said in the manga literally then:
    Oro is weaker than Itachi,
    Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya by a lot, even with the aid of Kisame,
    Tsunade is equal or greater than Jiraiya since he said she is a better candidate for Hokage,
    Itachi killed his whole clan to test his strength,
    Itachi never claimed he killed Shisui to get the mangekyou sharingan,
    and finally, there is no evidence to support or contradict that MS makes you blind.

    Here we go, Oro happily jumped into a fight with Tsunade, Jiraiya, Shizune and Naruto knowing fully well his only backup was Kabuto.
    This shows a couple of things.
    Since he didn't know Jiraiya was going to be there, he felt that Kabuto would be enought to beat Tsunade into submission on account of haemophilia. When Jiraiya did show up, he felt that he could take him even without arms albeit he was poisoned and Oro was aware of that fact.
    He can take on 2 Sannin but can't take on Itachi because he's scared Itachi will copy his jutsus?
    That makes no sense. So what if Itachi copies the jutsus? that doesn't mean he can avoid them, doesn't mean they won't hurt so it must mean that Oro has either seen something in Itachi that makes him stronger than Oro or what Oro said was taken out of context. Since we have no evidence for the latter, Itachi is stronger than Oro.

    Itachi though, literally ran from Jiraiya. People say that it's because he had used 2 tsukiyomis that day. Is Kisame just a wall flower? He also happens to be an S-rank felon and while Jiraiya is capable of beating him, even I a sannin-tard cannot see Jiraiya offing him in one move. I also can't see Akatsuki members having so large a gap between themselves that one member is basically useless on a team.

    Itachi acknowledged that he killed his clan, but that doesn't mean he killed them personally, it could be a round about way of sayin he caused their death. He could've let in the Akatsuki leader and still basically have killed his clan. But he did acknowledge when Sasuke asked so we must assume he did kill them. But he never said he killed Shisui. It was also never stated by anyone but sasuke that you have to kill your best friend. Is this the secret at the Uchiha hideout? Who knows. Kishi does.
    Maybe Itachi had also been obsserving Sasuke and wanted Naruto dead the way Oro wanted him dead, because he was interfering with Sasuke's move to the dark side. Just pure speculation.

    About MS making you blind, when have we seen a situation where Itachi's sight seemed impaired? He even caught a chidori coming straight for him and recognized Naruto from a distance. Unless he has Kiba's sense of smell, he isn't going blind.

    It's all my opinion
     
  19. Woofie

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    Spoiler: Spoilers throughout

    Regarding Itachi vs. Jiraiya, there is contradicting evidence here. Before the potential altercation, there was the discussion between Itachi and Kisame that most people here seem to remember. During this conversation, Kisame said such things as "even if you could fight equally with him, I cannot", and Itachi stated that at best, they would draw. Obviously this indicates that Jiraiya is probably stronger Itachi.

    Then there was the altercation itself. They tried to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto, so clearly they wished to avoid a battle... however, this isn't the first time they've expressed a desire to avoid pointless battles. After the trick failed and Jiraiya showed up, they didn't show much in the way of fear - Itachi practically ignored him, turned around and continued beating up Sasuke (and he began doing this before Kisame said they should leave them to it). Eventually, of course, they did run away; but I think overall this section showed a lack of fear of Jiraiya, and more a wish not to get involved in needless battles.

    Directly after the meeting with Jiraiya, there was another interesting conversation which people seem to ignore. Kisame said "why do we have to retreat? You could have...". This is a somewhat ambiguous statement, but anyone with an understanding of discourse would know that the second, unfinished sentence was an argument against them having to retreat, or justifying the idea that they could have stayed and fought. Therefore the most likely completions of this sentence are things like "...defeated him", "...killed him", "...used for super-elite move and pwnzed him".

    This is strange, because it is a contradiction of the earlier conversation. Earlier, Kisame seemed to think their chances of winning were low, whereas now he seems to suggest that they (or more specifically, Itachi) could have won.

    So, to sum up that evidence:
    - Kisame states that he couldn't fight equally, although vaguely suggests that Itachi may be able to. Itachi explicitly states that the best they could hope for is a tie.
    - In the actual exchange, they show a desire to avoid confrontation, by first getting Jiraiya out of the way and then retreating rather than fighting. However, neither of them showed any great fear when Jiraiya turned up, especially Itachi, who felt comfortable enough to turn his back on Jiraiya and beat up Sasuke.
    - Kisame hints that Itachi could have won after all and they didn't need to retreat. Itachi sys that he needs to rest.

    What does all this mean? What it means, in my opinion, is that Kishimoto is getting confused. It's possible that he changed his mind about Itachi's strength, or realised that the earlier conversation etc made Itachi look weaker than intended; hence the latter conversation to make it seem more like Itachi stood a chance, while still keeping his power mysterious. Therefore, there's no obvious answer to the Jiraiya/Itachi debate, Kishimoto has provided us with too much contradictory information. However, generally, more recent information is more canon - if Kishimoto did change his mind, then obviously his most recent idea of Itachi's strength is most relevant, since that is what would be used when Itachi finally has a proper fight.

    To try and rationalise this in terms of the story - although it's probably pretty pointless - Itachi isn't the type of person to brag about his powers. He occasionally states facts about them (like his Sharingan > Kakashi's, and that he owns Sasuke), but in an uncertain situation like this, he wouldn't be so overconfident. He's aware of Jiraiya's power, and knows how legendary he is, hence shows him suitable respect. I don't think Itachi's statement shows that Jiraiya > Itachi... a more suitable conclusion is that it shows the fight would be close, not an easy victory for Itachi like most others would be.

    Personally, I'd say all one can gather for certain from the Jiraiya section is that Itachi couldn't easily defeat Jiraiya... the most probable implication of this, based on the other suggestions from the section, is that they are of roughly equal power. But that's just my interpretation of it; there are others, and none are particularly valid because the evidence is contradictory nonsense.


    One thing which I don't think is up for much debate is Orochimaru's statement. Firstly, he was obviously talking about Itachi (some people seem to think he was talking about the Akatsuki leader) - the dialogue previous to that was about him, and it was clearly an effort to hype up Itachi as he first appeared. Also, Orochimaru isn't the kind of person who would readily admit someone is stronger than him; indeed, he said no such thing about Jiraiya. So I think it can be taken as fact that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru... however, probably not by very much.

    In regard to the argument that Orochimaru fears the Sharingan, not Itachi... nonsense, to be blunt. Kakashi has the Sharingan; he may not be as efficient with it as Itachi, in terms of chakra usage, but he can probably use it almost as well for a short amount of time. You saw what he did to Zabuza with it, and he's copied 1000 jutsu (so if Orochimaru was worried about his jutsu being copied, he'd be scared to death of Copy Ninja Kakashi).

    And that is besides the point anyway - if he fears the Sharingan because of how Itachi uses it, then he fears Itachi. He doesn't literally fear an eyeball, otherwise he would be afraid of any Sharingan user. But he isn't. The only possible argument one can make out of this is that "Itachi is only stronger than Orochimaru because of the Sharingan", which is probably true, but irrelevant.

    So, Itachi > Orochimaru, although the power difference may not be particularly great.

    What I get from all this is simply that Itachi is on the same level as the Sannin, nothing more. Is Itachi sufficiently stronger than Orochimaru to have an easy/guaranteed victory? This isn't stated, and I highly doubt it. It would be a very close battle, in my opinion, and even if there is a bhigher chance of Itachi winning, Orochimaru still has a chance. If Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya (which is less certain), is he sufficiently weaker for Jiraiya to have an easy or guaranteed victory? No, it'sd the same as the Orochimaru thing, but reversed.

    I think all three of them are on a similar level, and the power difference is small enough for the battles to be very close and the winners uncertain. It's just a 'who fights best on the say' thing. That's all you need to know, and that's all there is to know as of yet.

    I already pretty much answered this, but I'll add to it a bit.

    Although the battles were short, it was made fairly clear that Itachi > Konoha's strong jounin. Itachi was clearly superior to Kakashi and to Kurenai in those brief fights. Kishimoto wouldn't humilate Kakashi unless it was to show that Itachi is stronger, simple as that. Additionally, Kakashi recently said that he couldn't take on Itachi alone; and this is [presumably] improved, post-skip Kakashi.

    So Itachi > jounins; again, I believe that he is on a similar level to the Sannin. Not considerably stronger, not considerably weaker.

    Is he unbeatable? No. Is he the strongest villain introduced so far? Extremely likely. He is the main villain and opponent of one of the two main characters... he'll be around until close to the end of the story, and for his final clash with Sasuke - who should be near Hokage level by then - to be of any worth, Itachi has to be amazingly strong, and still appear almost unbeatable. Pretty much everything plot-wise suggests he has to be one of the strongest characters in the series. Orochimaru is probably on a similar level, but slightly weaker. Akatsuki leader is probably on a similar level, but a bit stronger.

    I mean, really... for anyone with common sense, it's completely obvious that Itachi has to be very strong. If Itachi is only as strong as Kakashi, or very slightly stronger, what the hell is the point of him being in the story? Naruto pretty much tied with someone on Kakashi's level (Kabuto) pre-skip. Considering the conclusion of the Sasuke/Itachi plot has to be close to the end of he series, how can there be any excitement and tension if it's obvious that Sasuke can already beat him.

    I seriously don't understand how so many people simply don't realise that Itachi has to be extremely strong for a large, important part of the plot to be of any worth.


    Reached character limit, will need a second post...
     
  20. Woofie

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    Spoiler: Continuation of previous post

    Uncertain.

    Tsukuyomi is a fightening move, but relatively easy to avoid. However, since it was the first of the [probable] three Mangekyou jutsu to be revealed, it's probably the weakest.

    Amaterasu seems extremely powerful, and the fact that it has yet to be shown and has been kept so mysterious attests to that. But we don't know enough about it to say for sure.

    The final jutsu (if indeed there is one) will probably be the most powerful.

    Personally, I think it's strong enough to be a difference-maker - for example, if Itachi is slightly weaker than Orochimaru exclusing the Mangekyou, the Mangekyou could make the difference and make him a little stronger than Oro. However, I think it's power is limited - for example, if Sasuke had killed Naruto and gained the Mangekyou pre-skip, he would have still been easily defeated by Orochimaru.

    So basically, on an already-strong ninja, it is very dangerous and can give him an advantage against opponents of a similar level (perhaps alightly stronger). But it isn't a magic bullet, and if a weaker ninja gains it they will be far from unbeatable.

    In terms of Itachi himself, I'd say it boosts him from "extremely powerful, hard to beat" to "almost unbeatable by anyone".

    That's all conjecture though, we don't know enough yet.

    I won't really get into that, since it's completely uncertain.

    All I will say is that if Sasori really did kill the Kazekage, then it's likely that Itachi killed the clan too.


    I certainly don't think Itachi will go completely blind in the series (i.e. has to use his other senses to fight).

    I think there's a chance that his normal eyesight is decreasing, which is why we have never seen him without the Sharingan on these days (whereas he didn't keep it on in the flashbacks).

    I don't really care anyway, since I don't think it will make him any weaker (don't ask me how, but he has to be at the peak of his power when Sasuke fights him).
     
  21. Last of the Uchihas

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    Spoiler: part 1


    Itachi would kill Jiraiya in a blink of an eye.



    First of all, Oro who was the first candidate for the Yondaime Hokage, not Yondaime nor Jiraiya, and lost the title because of his twsited ideologies and for not sharing the will of fire as the previous hakages did.

    Oro not only was the first candidate for the Yondaime Hokage, but he also created his own village from scratch, and is the Otokage of that village.

    He was also one of the most important/superior members of Akatsuki, is the strongest of the sannin and was described by the strongest Hokage ever as a genius that come every few decades.

    Not only that but Oro has spent is entire llifetime researching, creating, and mixing jutsus in order to become a god. Not just ninjutsu as people think, but all kind of jutsus, which includes ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, kinjutsu kenjutsu, kuchiyose no jutsu and seals.



    This powerful being said that Itachi is stronger than him.

    By the way,

    Itachi was 10/11 years old when Oro left akastuki, and he cleary stated that Itachi is stronger than him and the reason he left.

    This means that Itachi > Oro with all his jutsus, including Kusanagi, edo tensei and manda.

    All those jutsus cannot be copied by the sharingan, and Oro knows Itachi better than anyone from the Leaf, because he was in the same organization as Itachi, so he would know what to use against Itachi.

    Oro is the person that killed Sandaime and Kazekage, not to mention that Oor has beaten Jiraiya in the past and in the present, while fighting two sannin.


    People say Oro said that Itachi is stronger because he has the sharingan, which is bullshit, since he is not afraid of the sharingan, as it can be seen with his interraction with Kakashi and Sasuke.

    Then People say that Oro said that Itachi is stronger because of the amount of jutsu that Itachi has, which is pure bullshit since when Oro went agaisnt the Third, which was called the Proffessor since he learned all the jutsus from the leaf, and Kakashi have the same amount of jutsu as the third, not to mention taht Oro know 1000 of jutsus since he has spent an entire lifetime creating jutsus.

    Then is the Oh Oro said that Itachi is stronger than him because of MS, which is purebullshit, since Oro must have known about MS, since hKisame knows about it, and not only that, Oro didn't even mention that it was because of MS, jus that his strength exceed his own.

    Oro is the kind of guy that love to fight, look at his precedent.

    Oro fought Team 7, fought Anko, would have fought Kakashi if Kakashi hadb't piss his pants, then killed Kazekage and his bodyguards by himself, he then invaded Konoha with his army along witht the sand. He killed Kazekage, he also defated Jiraiya in the past, and in the present and also fought Tsunade.


    Oro obviously went after Itachi and Itachi pwned him.

    Go back to the part that Oor said that Itachi was stronger than him and the reason he left akatsuki.

    Right after he said those words, what did Kishimoto showed us?

    Oro's original hand with the ring of akatsuki.

    Meaning that Oro lost that hand against Itachi, and we know that Itachi doid carry around a katana, although he doesn't wear a katana anymore, he still carries with him a medium blade, you could say wakizachi.

    Now, Itachi and KIsame arriving at Konoha.

    Itachi clearly said that he didn't come to the Leaf to start a war, implying that he can give them war if he wants to, but that wasn't his intention.

    Itachi pretty much owned ever jounin there without breaing a sweat,

    Kakahsi was barely able to keep up with Itachi, and couldn't even see Itachi's handseal, and this was an Itachi that was playing with him.

    The reason he used tsukuyomi on Kakashi was to put him in his place, since Kakashi for a moment thoguht that he could stand a chance against Itachi because he had the sharingan, even though it was stated that Kakashi can't used the shairngan as good as the Uchiha family.

    Now pay attention.

    Itachi used this jutsu before his confrontention with Jiraiya.

    1. Genjutsu counter against Kurenai.
    2. A water jutsu against Itachi
    3. kage bushin ( and it was stated that kage bushin divides evenly your chakra among your clone, meaning that Itachi used half his chakra by using this jutsu, people will say that that is bullshit since Naruto uses that kage bushin and he doesn't loses half his chakra. First of all, Naruto have Kyuubi, and it was stated that Kyuubi not only give him a lot of power in Kyuubiu mode, but also in his normal mode too. We have seen Naruto heal in his normal mode, look at the time that Naruto was cut himself for agaisnt the demon brother. Kakshi noticed that his wound was healing. Then its was also stated that naruto huge stamine and chakra comes from Kyuubi. It was also stated by Jiraiya that the sel that he has sealing Kyubi, also work to mix both chakra until they become one.)

    4. He then made that Jutsu explode
    5. He made a water jutsu to protect himself from the explotion
    6. Used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi for 3 days straight, and at the same time, made Itachi live 3 days in 1 also, since he msut be there the same time he puts his victims through)
    7. Casted genjustu on that woman.

    People here say that Gai > Itachi which is the biggest bullshit of all.

    If Gai . Itachi, then Gai > ORO, jIRAIYA, yONDAIME AND SO FORTH.

    Gai is used to fight Kaaksh, a person that can even used the sharingan as good as the Uchiha family, not even mentioning that Gai think the only way to defeat an sharingan user is not to look at his eeys, which is pure bullshit, since Itaci clrealy proved taht he doesn't need the sharingan but a finger to pwned you.

    Look what happen to Naruto, he nneded the help of a chunnin with talent in genjustu and from Chiyo, which is the equivalent of the sannin in the sand.

    Itachi is the kind of guy that you think you have all figure it out, just to find out how wrong you were.
     
  22. Last of the Uchihas

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    Spoiler: part two



    This all before his encounter with Jiraiya, meaning that he has less than half his chakra with him and lived 3 dasy in 1 day.

    Now come the most infamous part.

    Oh Itachi said that Jiraiya would kill him and it doesn't matter how many memebr there are they would get kill.

    First of all, Itachi has never met Jiraiya, he knows him by repuattion.

    Notice that Itachi said those comment based on what Kisame said early which was basically comparing their reputation, and that Itachi had half his chakra, and lived 3 days in 1 day.

    and still Kisame said that Itachi can kill Jiraiya.


    Then poeple would say that Itachi was a chicken because he was avoiding Jiraiya whcih is total bullshit, since Itachi also wanted to avoid Kurenai and Azuma, and he could ahve easlity kill them,.

    He clearly stated that he didn't want to start a war, which is why he tried to avoid anyone.

    Kisame also stated that they knew the trap they set for Jiraiya wouldn't work, meaning that they were prepare to fight Jiraiya if the occasion arised.

    With that, they already had factored if Jiraiya confronted them, but they didn't expect Sasuke to be there.

    Now, If Sasuke wasn't there, Itachi wouldn't abandoned his akatsuki mission for his own private mission of refueling Sasuke's hatred.

    If Sasuke wasn't there, Naruto would be legless and kidnapped since he after all bought time for Jiraiya to arrived, and Jiraiy would be dead.


    First of all, Tsukuyomi was stated three time in the manga that it has the power to kill if the user wants to, and i twas described in the databook as the ultimate genjustu and that no one can escape this genjutsu unless you have MS, which obviously Jiraiya doesn't have it.

    Itachi could have tsukuyomied Jiraiya right there with a blin of an eye, even more since Jiraiay knew shit about Itachi even less about MS, and it was clearly shown that Jiraiya was looking at Itachi face.

    Yet he didn't and used it on Sasuek, as if Tsukuyomi is not even worth it to used it on Jiraiya but in his own brother.

    Second, Itachi could have killed Jiraiya in a blink of an eye with amaterasu, but not only him, but Kisame, Naruto and Sasuek as well.

    Amaterasu was described as a jutsu that can kill anything that is reflected in MS, and that it would burn for days staright, and that it can kill you by just touching you, not to mention that it was also said that amaterasu is as hot as the sun.

    If anyone has seen the fighting game of Naruto, you would know that Amaterasu was done in a blink of an eye, and complete obliterate anything in its path, that it seem to drag you in to hell.

    That move would easily kill an entire army.

    Those are two move that would have easliy kill Jiraiya, but Itachi decided not to used them.

    8. Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke for 24 hours, meaning that Itachi has already lived 4 days in 1 day.

    9. Itachi used amaterasu to brun through a summon that breather fire and said to be inescapable.

    10. Itachi had the sharingan the whole time until the very end.

    11. Kisame once again said once again that Itachi can kill Jiraiya and that a retreat for him was unnecessary, and Itachi agree with him but that his body needed to rest and that they can take Naruto anytime they want.

    Now, look at this, Itachi did in fact live those 4 days in 1 day, which is why Itachi said that his body needed to rest.

    Second, he agree that he can kill Jiraiya but that he was too tired which is why he mentioned that his body needed to rest.


    Notice that when Kisame asked for Itachi's persmision to cut Naruto's legs, Itachi said nothing, and Kisame got the message, which was a yes.

    Itachi > Jiraiya


    Also, let me clear this up.

    It was said that Itachi was the greater genius that the academy had ever seen since its foundation, and that he didn't need any help at all.

    Meaning that Itachi is greatest genius of all time, which not even Oro nor Yondaime can't be compare to him, only sandaime.

    Jiraiya, Oro, Tsunade, and even Yondaime all went to the academy.

    Itachi reached the kage level by the age of 10/11 on his own, without a sannin or hokage as his sensei

    Itachi > Jiraya period.
     
  23. Guess

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    Why do ppl think that oro beat jiraiya in their first fight? I mean do you think oro is the kind of person that would have let jiraiya live if he did beat him. he's not sasuke, so let's not make him out to be. In the 2nd fight oro didnt beat him either he had a much easier time summoning with the help of kabuto.
    Oh if it was that easy to land the MS and that fire thing on someone of jiraiya's strength why didnt he do it at the hotel since they were at a hallway and Itachi has enough charka to use it to escape why not just use it to kill jiraiya before running. I'm sure kisame would have more than enough for make an escape after jiraiya is dead.
     
  24. Nighthawk

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    Hm...you're still denying the timeline. Oro left akatsuki 7 years ago [Itachi 10/11]. Itachi joined the akatsuki at the age of 13/14. Obviously, Oro was talking about the third mange user. Oro tried to take Itachi's body but the third mange user kicked his ass. That's why he left akatsuki and started looking for Sasuke.


    That wasn't his intention because he would get injured and killed in a war.

    No, Itachi isn't the greatest genius of all time. That academy teacher could have been at the academy for a few years. And he said "I didn't see a genius like Itachi since..." meaning there was another one but he just couldn't remember.

    Itachi < Jiraiya. Jiraiya saw tsukiyomi and amaterasu and what did he say? Nothing, he just laughed. Then he told Naruto not to worry cuz he can protect him, Itachi doesn't stand a chance.
     
  25. Gyroscope

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    I cant stress enough how bad these forums needed a thread like this :p .Yosh -


    My lil theory on Itachi -

    Itachi is stronger than the Sannin - Yes i do agree.Itachi is stronger.Orochimaru flat out said it.Itachi is stronger than him and that is why he left Akatsuki.Which also means that Itachi was stronger than Oro when he was around 10-11 years old :omg Unbelievable yes, but after seeing Sasori and knowing that he killed the Sandaime Kazekage - strongest Kage ever in Suna at a pretty much young age.......it doesnt seem all that hard to believe that another genius could be considered to be very powerfull at a very young age.Especially since they are in the same organisation.

    Aain to go back to Orochimaru and the reasons he fears Itachi.Personally i dont think Oro is scared because of the Sharingan.A genius such as himself with so many many years of experience in Konoha itself should be used to fighting along-side the Uchiha and thus knowing the Sharingans strength/weaknesses.THere are so many justsu that the Sharingan would be unable to copy (Edo-Tensei, Kuchiyose, Blood line jutsus etc...).
    Its not like Orochimaru couldnt use them against Itachi in a fight.Also its not like its totally impossible to not look into Itachi's eyes.And with so many years fighting wars im sure Oro has honed his skills to near perfection.Unless itachi is indeed very much capable of beating him in a fight i dont see any reason for Oro to fear the brat.
    Also Oro isnt half concerned about Kakashi or Sasuke.Agreed they arnt quite as skilled as Itachi is but Kakashi sure is capable of using the Sharingan very well.

    As to why Itachi and Kisame were fretting over Jiraiya - I believe they were only regarding his status as a legendary nin and nothing more.I mean he is one of the 3 most famous nins in the whole world while they are just a couple of unknowns.Itachi had also used the MS just a while ago against Kakashi (and a couple of other insignificant jutsus).In the corridor he focused on torturing Sasuke rather than going after Naruto.[I have my own lil thesus on that as well.But ill save that for later].Kisame asks him why even he had to retreat.Meaning Kisame believed Itachi could take on Jiraiya.Which going by the Itachi>Oro statement is very plausible.

    Now before any of you get any ideas of naming me a fanboy ill say it right now - Itachi is not one of my fav characters.I dont even like him all that much right now.There could be a certain turn of events that may make me ike him more as a character but that is yet to come.My post is based on Orochimaru's statements and me not looking too deep to find out specific possibilities for his reasoning.I dont think Oro fears the Sharingan but being in Akatsuki and quite possibly having seen Itachi fight....he has plenty of reasons to do so.
     
  26. Last of the Uchihas

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    lol, so now the 3 ms user kicked Oro's ass?


    Itachi dind't join akatsuki at the age of 13/14, but at the age of 10/11.

    Oro wouldn't leave an organization just because i guy from the Leaf was stronger than him.

    not to mention that there are also facts backing this up, like the time the police said that Itachi's behavious and speeche had changed dramatically since 6 month agao, which fit perfectly.





    Nope, he would have given them war, since eh didn't sound as if he would die.





    Page 4:
    兄弟そろってお世話になります。
    I ask you to take care of this boy just like you did his brother

    Page 5:

    いやいやお世話だなど
    Take care of no no, there was no need.

    忍者学校(アカデミー)
    始まって以来の天才・・・
    あの子ほど優秀な生徒は今までいませんでしたよ
    He(the brother) was the greatest genious the Academy had seen since it's foundation.... There hasn't been a finer student than him.

    何一つ
    世話する事も無いぐらいにね・・・
    no need to take care of him at all.

    君にも期待してるよ
    we have high hopes for you too.

    兄さんの様に立派な忍びになれよ
    Become a fine shinobi like your brother.


    The teacher isn't speaking from his personal experience, but from the academy's history.



    lol, Jiraiya talked so big, in how he was going to kill Itachi, that after he saw what amaterasu had done, he decided know to follow Itachi meaning that he was bitting more than he could chew.

    Look at Itachi's facial expresion when he saw Jiraiya's summon, and look at Jiraiya's facila expression when he saw what was left of amatersu.

    That should tell you what Itachi thought of Jiraiya's jutsu, nothing, while Jiraiya showed fear and shock.
     
  27. Nighthawk

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    There's no way Itachi could have been in akatsuki at the age of 10/11. In case you didn't know, you have to be s-rank criminal to join akatsuki, and Itachi killed his clan and joined akatsuki when Oro already left the organization. Read the manga again. Oro clearly stated he wanted Itachi's body, but that was impossible because "HE" (Itachi's boss, the third mange user) was even stronger than Oro.



    Dude, the academy is for kiddies. You're not even genin level there so stop bragging about Itachi being the most talented academy kid.


    Actually, Itachi was the one who got scared. I can upload it, if you want. The manga page where you can clearly see Itachi's fear. Jiraiya was just surprised that a punk like Itachi can burn his toad stomach jutsu which he uses to kill low-level criminals.

    Of course Jiraiya didn't chase Itachi and Kisame!!
    His job is to protect Naruto, not to go after akatsuki.
     
  28. Last of the Uchihas

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    Jiraiya said that this is an organization of s class crimimal, 7 years after Itachi had joined.

    That's where the difference lies.

    Read the manga, he clerly said that is he has Itachi joined his side, there would be any problem at all, and said that he was more powerful than him.




    Itachi is the greater genius of all time.



    Look dude you are not fooling anyone here.

    Pist the picture if you want.


    He said that he was going to kill Itachi right there, since he know that is a thread to Naruto, which is why he wanted to kill Itachi, to protect Naruto.

    After he saw amaterasu, he didn't even dare follow him, even less get near the fire.
     
  29. Hef

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    LoTU, you really should read the chapter (148) again.
    A) Jiraiya was not scared shitless. And he didn't look shocked. He was simply surprised that someone managed to escape the jutsu
    B) He didn't follow Itachi because of Sasuke. They had to rescue Sasuke. Without Sasuke, Itachi would most likely be dead now.
     
  30. IronFist Alchemist

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    I thought we went over the "lived 4 days in 1 day" thing with SamuraiSoul's translation of Tsukiyomi??
     
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