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The Original “Eyes” and “Body” of Hagoromo

Discussion in 'New Leaf' started by BlinkST, Oct 13, 2018 at 3:24 PM.

  1. BlinkST All is well in the kingdom

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    @Klue @vered @Rai @Zef

    Uchiha scroll of legends, assemble.:catwalk





    Other translations (chapter 462):


    The way that this flows, it is logical to assume that the “eyes” were the Uchiha clan’s Sharingan, and the “body” was the Senju clan’s vitality.





    Recently, I’ve begun to consider that this is not exactly the case.

    What led me to suspect this, was the following:










    What I noticed here, is that Hagoromo, Obito, and Madara are all Rikudo Sennin mode users, and they all have a staff, but there’s a major difference: Obito and Madara each only have one side of the staff. I suspect this is because they only had one eye. When Obito stole some power from Madara, his staff manifested as the shakujo side.




    Ultimately, we never got to see Madara with both sides after he got his eyes back. The rods that he used appeared like Naruto's.

    Now, we were informed that as a pair, the full power of the Sharingan can be unleashed.




    It is logical that for example, Madara’s Limbo clones might increase when he has both eyes:




    What isn’t so logical, was that each Rinnegan, produces a different side of the staff. Again, we never saw Madara use the staff at all after he had both of his eyes, but I have good reason to believe that he would have had both sides.

    When I look at how these two powers influence each other, it suggests to me that they are two pieces to the greater puzzle that is Hagoromo’s body, and effectively, were the original “eyes” and “body” — not the traits of the Uchiha and Senju.

    Perhaps another hint of this, were the teachings of the Uchiha monument:




    Madara’s interpretation of this teaching, was to combine Senju and Uchiha into one body. This began with incorporating Hashirama’s chakra, and culminated with becoming a jinchuriki of the Juubi, allowing him to awaken Rikudo Sennin Mode.

    Now, Madara’s immediate interpretation of the monument’s teachings was also shown: cooperation between two individuals. That is, Naruto and Sasuke, representing the two halves: body and eyes.







    This theory still has some flaws, however. To start with, no matter how I slice it, we were still told that Indra had inherited his father’s eyes. Additionally:

    父・大筒木ハゴロモの力を、生まれながらに受け継いだ嫡男。あらゆる難関を単独で突破する強さを持ち、それ ゆえ力こそが全てを可能たらしめると悟った。
    The eldest son who naturally inherited the power of his father, Otsutsuki Hagoromo, by birth. He possessed strength that single-handedly broke through any barrier. Because of that power, he certainly discerned that he could make anything possible.


    The big issue here is the indeterminate origin of the Sharingan. The databook isn’t much help regarding this, because it is also implying that Hagoromo possessed the power of the Sharingan. Any evidence of that is rather weak, because the story had never directly regarded Hagoromo as a Sharingan user. Dojutsu-wise, his power was always said to be the distinct Rinnegan.

    The main, weak evidence here, will have to be the Susano’o. I also want to keep in mind the cooperation between the Rinnegan and Sharingan, and the possibility that they are both parts of a bigger puzzle.




    Now, this instance where Madara used the Susano’o and a sequence of hand signs to attract or summon a "meteorite", was strongly implied to be within Hagoromo’s capabilities. It in turn implies that Hagoromo was a Susano’o user.






    It can on the other hand, mean that the jutsu itself (handsign sequence) was originally Hagoromo’s, rather than the way that Madara executed it with the Susano’o weaving two of the three handsigns. However, it reminded me of a moment where Chiyo had three of her puppets each use handsigns to collectively cast a jutsu.




    If the meteor jutsu does not require the Susano’o, it does not really make any sense for Madara to have used it in that way. It could easily had been cast by using the Shurado instead, if all he needed was 2 extra pairs of hands.





    Even more puzzling, the massive Chibaku Tensei that Madara made while he was a jinchuriki, visually resembled the meteorite, and were called as such by characters, even though their origin was earthly.






    To my knowledge, the meteorite jutsu was never explained in databook IV.

    The second example is again going to have to be the Susano’o, and the cooperation between two different powers. Here, we see the possibility of the creating a Susano’o whose body can deter the penetrative light of Mugen Tsukuyomi.





    Other translation:


    1/2
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018 at 3:33 PM
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  2. BlinkST All is well in the kingdom

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    However, it was the third example of cooperation, that I began to consider that there is something to this. This action I believe, epitomized Itachi’s remarks that with both eyes together, the user can “do anything”, and Sasuke does something that in my humble opinion, he had no business whatsoever doing.







    Other translation:





    That is, after trapping the Biju with Chibaku Tensei, he absorbs their chakra, placing them into the Susano’o. The big thing here is not just that Susano’o was the substitute for Kaguya’s body (Gedo statue). It is that Susano’o played the role of a “Yin-based container”.











    As the Kyubi said, Sasuke did the opposite, which was place some of the 9 chakras back into one container, though it was not true Onmyoton, because the Susano’o did not become a living thing. There was a running joke years ago that the Susano’o was Kishimoto’s excuse for giving the Uchiha a “Biju”, and in the end, it actually became one.



    Going back to Madara once said:











    In Viz media’s translation, Sasuke awakened a "one-eyed Rinnegan". However, Sasuke doesn’t follow the general rule of requiring a matching set of eyes to unleash his full power: his power wasn’t slashed in half by having only one of each eye. They are instead treated as a complete set.



    The best evidence of this, is that Nagato, with two Rinnegan, had trouble capturing the Kyubi with one Chibaku Tensei. Sasuke captured 9 biju without breaking a sweat — we didn't get the slightest hint that Sasuke's power was affected from just having one Rinnegan. The Kyubi even compared his talent to Hagoromo's.



    For much of the story, the Sharingan was treated as the Uchiha’s eyes, and the Rinnegan, Hagoromo’s eyes.









    It wasn’t until towards the end of the story, that they were both considered to be the Uchiha clan’s eyes.









    It just leads to bigger questions as to what exactly the Susano’o is, and precisely what modern powers Hagoromo himself had.
     
  3. kayz Well-Known Member

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    Notice that the Rinnegan itself is called a "six paths power". Does it mean, those who used Rinnegan (Nagato, Obito, Madara) already had six paths power without the Juubi?
     
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