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Theories on the -Contact-

Discussion in 'Respect Dome' started by Keollyn, Oct 27, 2006.

  1. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    Updated: Febuary 19, 2007

    Disclaimer: If Xenogears and its characters don't concern you, then this thread should go ignored by you.

    Note: This is not finished. It is still subject to more research and ideas. If for some reason you feel like contributing, then by all means.

    Theories on the -Contact-

    This thread is dedicated to observing and theorizing on the power and abilities of the -Contact-; the main character/s of Xenogears. Since there ARE people out there that do not know, but MIGHT (hopefully) want to know, here is exactly what the -Contact- is.

    I believe Wikipedia sums it up nicely. But the short answer is:

    "A person with the power of God"

    Simple, eh? Well, it is best that we don't linger. Let us begin on the study of the -Contact-

    Table of Content... err...

    Well, I'm not sure I'm doing a ToC, but here are stuff that might be touched on during this study.

    • The source of the -Contact- power; the Wave Existence
    • Phenomenon Alteration. What is it, and how is it put in practice?
    • The realm of possibilities: What could the -Contact- do?
    • Questions and Answers
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2007
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  2. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    The source of the -Contact- power: The Wave Existence.


    What is the Wave Existence?

    A bodiless existence from a higher dimension; it exists in the form of "waves" and thus, cannot be perceived, in its normal state, by the human mind. The universe originally existed in this dimension of waves before becoming the universe we are familiar with, however, the boundary between the dimensions was broken by Zohar, and the Wave Existence trickled down into our three dimensional world.

    The point of contact

    A young passenger on the Eldridge before her destruction, Abel came into contact with the unintentionally imprisoned Har--or 'Wave Existence'--while on board. Scarcely more than a child at the time, his strong desire to be with his mother left an impression on the existence, ultimately leading to the creation of the first 'Mother.' Endowed with Har's 'will'--as shaped by its contact with Abel--she, Elhaym, was to be a companion for Abel, who himself had been granted Har's 'power' and protected by it when the Eldridge crashed on to the world of Xenogears. Their life together marked the beginning of a cycle--that of their 'namesakes,' the Contact and Antitype--which would continue for the next ten thousand years.

    So, we've established what the Wave Existence and how its power became assigned to a human, but what of its power?

    Well, like many God figures in fiction, not a whole lot is known of their powers besides an understanding that they're omnipotent. But, at least here, we have an idea of what WE does.

    The WE has complete dominion of spacetime and lower dimensional matter, and he functions within it through the use of Phenomenon Altering. This method accolates energy to one who desires it (complete details of this in the next post)

    Here's the infamous conversation between Fei and the Wave Existence

     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2007
  3. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    Phenomenon Alteration: Supplying the power.

    The Phenomenon Alteration System, or PAS for short, is a system used by Zohar/WE to supply the world of Xenogears with energy. This is what was stated in Perfect Works (PE for short; refers to Xenogears source book)

    PAS borrows heavily from Many Worlds Interpretation, or MWI. MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, possibly infinitely many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel universes or quantum worlds.

    Okay, but how does this system work?

    I'd best let PW explain this to you.

    Put into practice

    And this is how Phenomenon Alteration function. It's also good to note that a phenomenon of probability 0 (ultimately not possible) can be made the most probable future phenomenon.

    Here's another good example of the functionality of PAS, but this time, with image.

    Direct from the game

    "The 'ELDRIDGE' was equipped with history's first ever inexhaustible pseudo-perpetual engine. This was not just a highly efficient generator, but it also made possible the production of defense fields from it's unique 'A.O. (Absolute Object) space' and the actuation of hyper-light-speed 'S.V. (Subject Variable) navigation' etc...
    With a design based on the Heisenberg proposition's S Matrix, which is the solution to the Uncertainty Principle's reciprocal relationship of particles (or Cosmic Wave), it was thus also known as the 'S Matrix Engine' or 'Heisenberg Engine'.
    In principle, assuming all phenomena of the immediate future, including the present, are potential phenomena, it actualizes the most convenient phenomenon amongst these active subjects as the actual phenomenon and accordingly takes advantage of the resulting energy potential displacements."
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2007
  4. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    The realm of possibilities: What could the -Contact- do?

    Okay, since we understand that Zohar/WE supplies energy to the -Contact- through inclination of the temporal axis, what benefits would this bring to the -Contact-?

    Well if you understand that the most improbable future event can be realized, even a probability of zero, this helps you understand the yield in output.

    Example:
    Say Fei was about to get hit with high yield explosives. Fei desires not to be harmed by such an assault. Zohar/WE receives this thought, and begins to work the temporal axis, tilting it to a probability where Fei doesn't get harmed. After the desired event is actualized, the inclination of the axis of probability is resetted. Energy is produced, possibly forming a barrier. Fei is protected from the explosion.

    Things such as above is only a portion of what can be theorized as possible for a -Contact-. There's also output. Let's take actual game feats.

    Id is seen destroying 40 ton mechanical giants with his bare hands. Now since Id is essentially a human being, this should be impossible. Not only should he NOT be able to survive the force of such impact, he shouldn't be able to cause remotely ANY damage whatsoever to it. Not even a dent.

    Now this is where PAS comes into play. Through the explaination of Fei surviving high yield explosion, you can see how energy is received. This issue though, is you might think "How can a human withstand such high energy without dying" There are two probable answers to this.

    One is that being the avatar, God protects him from such high yield energy. The second could be that it isn't necessarily him receiving the energy within his body, but more of it being forego to him in cases of need. One of my friends came up with a nice explaination of the latter.

    Even though the second one is supported, the first one would seem more so true due to the fact that only a select few can accomplish this. And if the second was the case, anyone should, as everyone can be granted energy from Zohar/WE. But there's a counter-argument for this.

    Access rights. The WE does not give energy that he knows the person couldn't handle. Even though human have no limit to how much energy they can request, as opposed to a gear and its slave generator (more on this later), there bodies will have a limit. Which makes my point of Id being protected by the high yield energy by the WE.

    What protection does the -Contact- have besides physical?

    How about time and reality manipulation? Transmutation?

    Here's where it gets more difficult to explain. First, we must understand that the Wave Existence is essentially a universal God, which, as been explained already, can alter other worlds (Read: Universes) in order to get potential phenomenon to the desire of its avatar.

    So what about this time manipulation?

    Since we should have come to an understanding that the WE functions beyond time and space, and its control of it appears to be absolute, understanding the -Contact-'s ability to resist manipulation of it shouldn't be to hard to believe. Think of it like this. Someone prepares to stop time. Since it was proven that a -Contact- can retain their consciousness even when the mind should be shut off, resisting the time stop WHILE already in that state is possible. The WE receives the thought of his avatar wanting to resist this manipulation. The process begins and the energy is dispersed. With this, a buffer zone is created, so to say. Within this zone, the -Contact- is protected by the manipulation of time.

    Or instead of a buffer zone, there could be a removal of said effect from this time stop if the ability came from someone of lesser power than the WE (or even if this power only functions within four dimensional space)

    This could help push the idea across
    What of reality manipulation?

    Somewhat similar to the above. Let's take the response of my friend when he was debating on a character versus Id.

    You can also take a display that actually happened within the game that can support this. At the end of the game, Fei entered a temporal singularity. Afterward, he was outside of normal spacetime. He effectively maintained his existence.

    There are other manipulation to observe, but they focus more on theorizes harder to support, or effectively sound legit. Here's an attempt by my friend (again)

    As you can see, this one does not make for a more believable stance in resistance.

    The -Contact- theoretically have another resistant, but this doesn't necessarily involve the use of PAS. It is any attacks on the soul. Given that the -Contact- is tied to this higher dimensional being, an attack of the soul, be it possession, kill or removal, should theoretically not work. In order to interfere with the -Contact-'s soul is to interfere with the WE. Take what happens in the game as aid. The -Contact- are reincarnated into another body with the power still available to them. Since it is within a different body, this means that the power resides within the soul. This could only mean that the WE resides within the soul of the -Contact-

    Teleporting/Wisking away should prove impossible too. Depending on how you view teleportation, it should prove ineffective due to the WE control on spacetime. One source says that teleportation is a means of going from one place to another more or less instantaneously, without passing through the intervening space. This means that you're not passing through normal space, but beyond it. And as explained on both time and reality manipulation, a buffer zone, or removal of such affect can occur by the WE through the desire of the -Contact-. Also, any form of dimension dumping should also be ineffective. Otherwise, escaping from being dimension dumped shouldn't prove impossible, as Xenogears did it before.

    Existence erasing is pretty much following the same formula as all of the above theories. Being tied to this higher dimensional being means that anything short of the WE's power should not be able to erase its avatar out of existence.

    What of mental guard?

    This one is extremely tricky. At one point, it would appear that an attack of the mind would prove impossible on the -Contact- due to the display with Fei as a child. You see, when Fei was a child, he was experimented on. This is truly the source of Id's birth. Anyway, Karellan had people with high anima count try to make psychic contact with him in order to wake is power. Apparently, they all died in the attempt.

    What I was thinking was that Fei was being guarded by the psychic contact, not that the overload of energy could have been killing them. And then you have the fact that Kahn, Fei's father, was able to seal Id's persona by an unknown means, states that he isn't uneffected by mind tampering. Although, the fact that it went unknown makes this extremely questionable. One COULD infer that since Fei, effectively, alter his own state of mind, that his father could have somehow aided Id's lost persona in creating another persona (since he is the boy's father). But it is too complicated.

    So, one can believe that a high level psychic can tamper with the -Contact-'s mind due to these evidence, but any low-level psychic could risk death from the excess bleedout of energy... which range is infinite.

    The -Contact- can seem to dwarf/resist attacks on the nervous system, and theoretically any sense functions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2006
  5. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    The realm of possibilities: What could the -Contact- do? - Continued

    I've pretty much covered alot of the possible things the -Contact- can endure/resist, but what are they theoretically capable of outside that?

    What I'm certain I'll never say that the -Contact- are capable of is manipulation of their own. The ability doesn't seem in their range of power (although the possibilities SHOULD be there). But! Energy manipulation seems to be there though. Proof? Id and his telekinesis-like ability.

    Just look at this.



    The game has established that the -Contact- do not exhibits any ESP abilities in the slightest. So why would he be able to hold up a warship without touching it? This seems to point to energy manipulation. Although, I'm willing for anyone to explain what they think of this one.

    Speed is a fun one to theorize on. First, let's put the definition of speed out there so one can understand how these theories are being constructed from.

    "Distance travelled per unit time"

    Notice the word time? We've established that the -Contact- has the power of a God that controls time, right? So what does that mean here? Alot. Let's start with an in-game feat to aid us.

    Id, fighting three gears, was able to blitz them so fast that they appeared as statues. Each gear were, at least, 50 meters away from each other, and gears in battle move 550m/s.

    Now that we understand this feat, what can we establish from it? Given that Id isn't any more different than any other human, he cannot possibly outrun that speed by normal means. Well, what does this say? Time relative to Id is either speed up, or time relative to his surrounding is slowed. During this, Id can act at the speed he's normally capable of and until his objective is carried out (PAS) he'll stay within this state.

    NEW: I've always had a hard time proving lightspeed and beyond with the -Contact-, and most of the battles I've debate

    Strength: Besides attack power (punching a gear, ether blast), no -Contact- has demonstrated physical lifting strength. Is it beyond their power? I highly doubt it. Think of it like speed. It's not that they have superhuman powers, but moreso that their source god aids them in which it APPEARS that they do. What's the definition of weight? "A measure of the gravitational force acting on a mass"? This once again works in the -Contact favor. Minus the actual mass of the object, the gravitational force of it can be manipulated, and an object that exert more force from the gravity would appear lighter. The range of lifting depends on how much do you believe the capabilities of such an act.

    Attack power: We've seen quite a few displays here within the game. Since I'm not here to state what's already been established, let's theorize on an upper.

    Annihilate this world? What could this mean? Does it mean that Id, after obtaining Xenogears, has the power to destroy the world completely, or does it just mean destroy along the lines of "unpopulated"? One would think with Id's last feat that it would be the latter, but this next statement from the same person (different persona) would lead you to believe the former.

    NEW: And you have to understand that Id effectively had the power to "unpopulate" the world already, even before Xenogears. He already removed countless cities off the map, destroyed a country, and rid the world of Solaris. There's no way one could believe that it's the latter if he already HAD that power.

    Graf just stated that he'll use Deus to destroy all life, but then stated that he'll use the machine (Xenogears), to carry out the destruction of everything. Now we're not certain if this statement should be taken literal, but if you understand his past, you can see that Graf wants total destruction at the very least. And since this statement came from a previous -Contact- who made contact already... even if it was imperfect.... it can come off as more probable than improbable.

    What should also be considered is that Xenogears now draws directly from the wave dimension... the same dimension that created a universe from waves just spilling out. A single planet doesn't even occupy a percent of the universe. For someone drawing on that much power SHOULD be able to destroy a world at the very least.

    New: Whether he can destroy a world or not should be easily put to rest. Recall that the Wave Existence said that the -Contact- is the only thing that can destroy Zohar because it is perfect within the 4th dimension. Given that the Zohar withstood the big bang, destroying a planet shouldn't be too hard for them.

    Flight: Is it possible for the -Contact-? (gearless obviously)

    I believe so. Take two instances in the game. The time in which Id levitated towards the cockpit of his gear, and the time when Weltall destroyed the bridge from under Id and he remained airborne. Now floating isn't flying, but they're relatively similar, and require the same method to be performed. The method that Id did this could be similar to Marvel's Aero via Energy Aura Manipulation or Gravity via Gravitational Manipulation (although the latter is a bit of a stretch, but not improbable)

    New: I've been looking at the last battle again, and I'm starting to have the impression that Uroboros wasn't even a corporeal being. When you look clearly at Uroboros, you get an surreal, almost translucent form. This gives me the impression that Uroboros is not a material or physical existence. Therefore, Xenogears seemingly has the power to harm/kill incorporeal beings.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2007
  6. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    Questions and Answers

    If the -Contact- has the power of God, why the need for the gear?

    Good question, and one not at all complicated to answer. One would say that it has to do with output. Even though they're bestowed the power of God, the -Contact- are still human. There's likely a limit to their output. Granted, the game never once pointed this out, nor has it made apparent if even a limit was met, what would happen, but one could gues that there is one. Thus, the gear comes into play. The gear, being powered directly by the -Contact-, is given the -Contact- the ability to pour out more of that infinite power. And even though Weltall alleviated this, it still wasn't the highest output the -Contact- could reach. This is the purpose of the second contact; to give the -Contact- their final rights. And with Xenogears, a whole new, unparalleled, performance could be met.

    So the -Contact- isn't as strong as one would believe?

    Now don't jump to conclusion. Sure, they seem to need machines in order to get the full extent of God's power, but they aren't weak in the slightest. First off, God's power only seem to serve an issue during output. It doesn't seem as if there's a limit on the power they can require for defensive purposes. Take what happened to Abel. He was protected from the Eldridge crash; a six year old boy was protected by his newfound power from a ship crashing onto a planet from space. That seems to say that defense isn't the issue... as not even plenty of gears would've been able to survive such a thing.

    Also, their power output isn't exactly low either. Take what Id did to Lahan.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QweLMa1xNXs[/YOUTUBE]

    Now for anyone who actually observed this scene, they'd probably say "Well didn't that happened when he was in his gear"

    Yes and no. He WAS in the gear, but the ether blast didn't come from the gear. Observe.

    If you take ca closer look, you'll notice that Weltall isn't in Id-Mode, and the ether blast are expelling from WITHIN the cockpit. That's all Id. Weltall had no part in it. Weltall was actually the creator's feeble (yet intentional) way to cover up the whole Fei being Id thing.

    Okay, up next is an interesting question I ran across on my Id debating days.

    If Xenogears is so "godly" why didn't Fei use it to destroy, or heck, tank the blast from Merkaba?

    There is an extremely simple answer to this question.

    "Fei"

    Fei IS Id, but doesn't ACT like Id. There's also the issue of Elehayym being within Merkaba, so destroying it isn't an option. So what about tanking the blast, you ask? Once again, Fei. Fei lacks impulse. Yeah, sure, there are times he WOULD, but other times, if there's people around who could make the decision, he wouldn't put himself out there. And if anyone think that Hyuga, Bart, and the rest are just going to say "Hey, let's let Fei jump in the middle of that blast and see what would happen." then you must not have been paying attention while playing the game. Besides, he went within a singularity later on.

    Can the -Contact- mimic what Solaris did?

    [YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cUfK5HKhBXw[/YOUTUBE]
    {9:30)

    This could go in the "Realm of possibilities" post, but I feel like addressing it here. Theoretically, they should. If you look at the "Put into practice" section in the "Phenomenon Alteration" post, you'll see them explaining the method of how Solaris did so. Functionally, anything that can use the Phenomenon Alteration to affect space, should be in the -Contact-'s range of abilities since they're much more intimately linked to this system. The one issue someone might say is that it is likely a technique only Solaris knows. Yeah, at one point I agreed, but then you have to remember that Lahan's memories are now apart of Fei. Lacan, as Graf, had strong ties with Solaris at some point. There's a strong possibility that he learned of this method.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2007
  7. Id The Demon of Elru

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  8. Id The Demon of Elru

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    So are you going to continue with “does Wave Existence=/= Omnipotence“?


    I don’t think so. I view Har as a Multiverse being capable of altering space time continuum; capable of alter reality at unknown level’s. But that alone (to me at least) is not enough evidence that points out True Omnipoentet powers.

    Then there is the fact that, he never stated (or the game) he is the creator of everything (all though he does have the power to create his own realm adding life forms in it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2006
  9. Keollyn Cheryl & F5 fanboy Retired Staff

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    Definitely. He's omnipotent in his own right, but he not the Supreme being. I think he even says it in the game.

    I would say he falls on damn near omnipotent as you're going to get.

    Because the Wave Existence also gets depowered...

    Game script or official source > Wikipedia

    From the game

    KRELIAN
    "Before the beginning of the universe, in the undulating waves of the higher dimension, all things were one.
    It was the waves spilling out from there that created this four-dimensional universe of ours.
    'Humankind' and the 'Souls of Humankind' that were born from there, are merely leftovers of those spilled waves. So..."

    This is what "Wave Being Karellen" considerers the wave

    "To go back to when all was one... waves, and nothing else... It is not my -Human's- ego... It is the will of the 'Waves'... the will of -god-..."

    He called the waves' god. The Wave Existence IS the waves. Thus, he created the universe. Unintentionally, but created it nonetheless.

    There's also the Wave Existence speaking of it itself


    HAR
    "In actuality, I do not have a physical form. I am an 'Existence' of a higher dimension. A place you cannot perceive... But in terms you understand, it is a world where everything acts as kinds of waves...
    It is the source of this four-dimensional universe... The place where time and space is controlled... The fluctuating void... The 'Wave Existence'"

    Or how about Perfect Work

    A bodiless existence from a higher dimension; it exists in the form of "waves" and thus, cannot be perceived, in its normal state, by the human mind. The universe originally existed in this dimension of waves before becoming the universe we are familiar with, however, the boundary between the dimensions was broken by Zohar, and the Wave Existence trickled down into our three dimensional world.

    Yeah it does. Plus I need to revise it. Some of my images got broken.

    Well it isn't necessarily a respect thread, given that the bulk of it is theories.

    I'm wondering what else I should add. Maybe some stuff from Elly/Myyah/Antitype?

    They are interconnected to Fei/-Contact-, and can reestablish the theories with their own feats (like Elly containing a planet buster)
     
  10. Id The Demon of Elru

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    This thread needs to be moved to the respect dome.
     
  11. Id The Demon of Elru

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    I demand one of the 4 mods to move thee:mad
    And rep from Keo for necroreviving this:LOS


    Plus I think there is more we can add on to this. Like direct links to the bios you made in the power directory from this page. - Just a suggestion.
     
  12. Id The Demon of Elru

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    Its not a respect thread per say, but it is an informative thread.
    I believe informative threads such as these (ware one is attempting to inform, not discuss the series) are permitted to be added to the respect dome.


    Thanks - ezxx
     
  13. Id The Demon of Elru

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    That?s what came to mind. The interrelations between Maing, Elly, Antitype. As well as how Deus sought to merge the contact and the antitype, in order to execute its rogue plan??? Or else Deus would not have functioned to optimal level with out it.
     
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