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Tournament Final - Kai vs. Risu

Discussion in 'Konoha Colosseum Archive' started by Spell, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. Spell on a Forums Break

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    Setting For The Final - Great Naruto Bridge (wave country)

    Tournament Rules

    1. Vote on the clear victor and it is required you state why they would in. Votes will be voided if there is no explanation, or spam.
    2. Only 1 vote allowed. If later you are persuaded by someone and choose to vote for the other team, then only that vote will count.
    3. No Plot No Jutsu. (Naruto doesn’t defeat Kakuzu, Sasori, and everyone just because Kishimoto won’t let him die.)
    4. No filler jutsu’s. (We're letting TenTen have her crossbow.)
    5. No Giant or Boss summons except for Kakashi (Pakkun), Temari (Beaver thing), Kido (Spider), Tayuya (3 Monster things.)
    6. KWGoD, Aoba, Mecha Hidan and the Gai hype (Chuck Norris type hype) not allowed. Otherwise, one could have all 3 on their team and own EVERYONE. Please try and be serious and just go off their skills
    7. Experience of fighting WITH or AGAINST ninja's are in play. (I.E. if you choose Kiba-Shino-Hinata, they may work better since they are a team and know eachother's strengths and weaknesses. Or... Kakuzu will know to fight Hidan from a great distance since he doesn't want his blood drawn, and because they are partners. Hidan will have an advantage of characters who don't know of his ability). EXPERIENCE IS ONLY IN AFFECT FROM CHAPTER 348AND BEFORE.
    8. No Prep Time.
    9. It’s a team fight. Team vs. Team
    10. If caught bribing for votes or cheating (making aliases), you will be disqualified from the tournament.

    ***Please try and be clear with who you think wins. It would be koo if u can say at the bottom of ur post who wins. (i.e. Winner = Lil Wayne)

    Kai
    Team ^_^
    KN3 Naruto(before wind training)
    Post Shikamaru w/ Chakra Blades
    Pre-Ino
    Pre-Chouji
    Pre-Shikamaru
    Post Sakura
    Pre-Sakura

    Risu
    Team Deadly Combination
    Sasori
    Post-Shikamaru (w/blades)​
     
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  2. materpillar Caterpillar King

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    Team ^_^ takes this one with relative ease actually

    simple really...sakura mentions the poison to everyone...then pre-sakura, both shiks, and chouji run up. sasori and post shik rip them a new one but at least one shik binds sasori...then ino soul switches with sasori cause he isn't moving (probably work even if shik wasn't binding him). naruto gets pissed cause his team mates are littering the ground and proceeds to go KN3 and rip shik to bits and post sakura walks up a punchs out sasoris heart while his mind is being controlled...kn3 was barely needed
     
  3. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Just a message for best of luck to you, Risu. I knew this would come sooner or later :tem

    Simply put, Naruto is a bad matchup against Sasori. The contributing factor to the win will be Naruto's beginning status quo in base mode. The other major contributing factor is the established agreement that Sasori is starting off in Hiruko; none of his weapons are poisoned, and I already have a smasher who's destroyed it, and has knowledge of the rest of Sasori's gameplan.

    Yeah, Sasori has 100 puppets, but Naruto can literally create 10 times as many shadow clones when he first began his training.
    to popatrz na ten
    to popatrz na ten
    That is 1,000 shadow clones, 10 for every puppet in Sasori's arsenal.

    The rest of the folk on my team are capable of plowing threw a few puppets as a combination; however they may very well be poisoned in the end. KN3 can be used as a finishing touch; destroying Shikamaru and Sasori's heart talisman in a single roar.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2007
  4. HellKarasu Scourge of the Hidden Mists

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    Put simply, Post Shik=Post Shik. Kn3+post Sakura+fanclub>Sasori. KN3 can outnumber Sasori's puppet army by a lot, and post Sakura can pummel Shikamaru into submission. After that, shadow bound Sasori will lose. However, much depends on the timing, as Sasori> Naruto+post Sakura and co. If Sasori acts fast, he wins, if not, he loses. Simple as that. Naruto in KN form has no strategy, and Sasori AND Shikamaru are known for theirs. My vote's with Risu. This battle reminds me how much I want to see a Naruto v. Sasori fight on Shippuuden.
     
  5. Spell on a Forums Break

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    That's probably one of the worst matchups for me in this tournament, it's lucky I haven't met team ^_^ before. However my team can win this and I will provide some argument that prove my opinion. :p


    The problem is Shikamaru isn't able to bind Sasori. He is inside Hiruko. He could probably bind this puppet but Sasori still would be able to move. Furthermore do you think he will just stand there and wait until Skika binds Hiruko.

    No, he will attempt to kill them and if they just run at him he wouldn't have problems with killing them.

    No that won't work. Shintenshin is a slow technique, since Shika can't bind Sasori, he will be able to move. Besides there is no proof Ino would be able to use this jutsu on Sasori. It's a problematic matter.

    You already invalidated this argument. Let's talk hyphothetically: You stated Ino uses her jutsu with a success. What's now? Naruto kills her? No, I doubt it.

    It's good it was later :p

    Um, actually all of his weapons were poisoned :oh

    That smasher would die in the very beginning of the fight if Chiyo didn't help her. She is not able to smash Hiruko again.



    1. The problem is shadow clones usually die after a scratch. It's easy to get a scratch against a puppet. Besides creating 1000 drains a lot of chakra, even for Naruto, especially in base mode.
    2. Sasori has got 298 puppets.
    3. Recall the fight with Kimimaro. Seriously, a scratch isn't a big deal for puppets. Naruto doesn't seem to have considerable evading abilities, and for sure we can't compare them to Sakura's.
    4. IIRC someone ( I'm pretty sure it was you) stated (and for sure it was few people) that Naruto will transform pretty fast to 3 tailed mode when fighting against Akatsuki. That's why he won't act like you want him to do here. It's stll "I will bash you" Naruto. He will transform.

    You can't state it like that. Evaluating one character after another isn't proper. It's a team, synergy works here. That's why it's often when in a team 2 + 2 = 5.

    How exactly?

    1. Do you think Sasori will stand and watch?
    2. Shadow binding and Sakura pummels Ino.
    Good choice :p

    I wish Sasori didn't die =/ He had great potential ...

    Oh, I would just add a short statement. Why do I think I could win? Reason is simple: Naruto knows Sasori is an Akatsuki, won't listen to any arguments ("I'll kill this bastard!!!") and charge at Sasori. Rest of Kai's team isn't as powerfull as citan's (my previous fight) and won't be able to backup KN3 as good. They are good for strategy but weak when it comest to chaotic attack. Lack of raw power is their disadvantage here. I don't see how KN3 would be able to survive Irion Sand so if his teammates won't help properly, he will die. And if he dies, rest of his team has almost no chances to beat Sasori even without shika to help.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2007
  6. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Sakura is well aware of this....she's battled against the guy. Her analyzation and evasive attributes improved during their battle:
    [Order]_Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann_-_06

    This really isn't a hindrance to my argument. Naruto's swarm of kagebunshins would be able to Uzumaki Rendan[or whatever whacky taijutsu he decides to use] away a great deal of Sasori's puppet army. Durability of KB's isn't my concern.

    That is the least of problems concerning Naruto. He was able to pull off a 2,000 hit combo with god witnesses the # of clones..
    Link removed
    Link removed
    He summoned Gamabunta right afterwards. This is pre skip Naruto.

    Recall Naruto provided nothing to damage Kimmimaro with? Does Sasori receive a perfect 5 in taijutsu? Numbers are the big matter in play here; with the numbers Naruto can create, he'd destroy a horde of them.

    I think the clones are capable of transforming into the tailed forms; I'll check up on that in a bit.

    Even against Deidara, the actual character that defeated Gaara, he was naturally in his kyuubified form, no tails attached.
    Link removed
    Suzumebachi
    I should be able to decide whether he can transform or retain his current state... :notrust

    Sasori is a cocky fruit anyways with his heart talisman protruding out of his chest. That's not a good sign when he decides to use himself to attack team ^_^; KN3 will be right there to crush it with pure chakra force alone.
    Link removed
    volume 3_chapter 28
    ^I can definitely see those two connecting :)

    PS: Acknowledging our battle stage, will the poison still be effective if used in water?
     
  7. Hiruko Puppet

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    I'll have to go with Risu this time. I havent got time to make a very long argument so i'll keep it short.

    The shikamaru's cancel each other out.

    Now we have sasori
    vs
    Pre-Ino
    Pre-Chouji
    Pre-Shikamaru
    Post Sakura
    Pre-Sakura and 3 tailed naruto.

    Well, thats a lot of people, but I think sasori could take out everyone but naruto while in hiruko. Remember, sakura would have been killed pretty early if chiyo, who already knew sasori and knew alot of his traps. Post sakura might survive for a while, but she'll ultimately die if she's not being guided like a puppet.

    Now, as the battle between sasori and KN3 begins, I doubt sasori's projectiles will bother naruto much. Im not even sure that naruto would be able to smash through hiruko, as it is the most defensive of puppets. If he cant break it, i guess sasori will cut him in half with his tail. If he can be smashed out however, it may be a little harder. First of all, im sure sasori will have realised KN3's destructive force, so he's likely to whip out sandaime pretty soon, and by then if naruto can't catch him, naruto'sa dead man.

    Winner - Risu - Team Deadly Combination
     
  8. Distracted Well-Known Member

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    Yeah whatever advantage shikamaru has working with Sasori will also be added to the other shikamaru...

    so I don't know...

    Would Sakura be able to heal the poison on the battlefield? I mean she does have pre-knowledge.

    Whether she can or not effects my vote I'd like to hear opinions on this... she knows about the poison, she knows the cure, but she has no prep time.
     
  9. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    Kai: Sanbi Naruto, Shikamaru (II), Sakura (II), Ino (I), Chōji (I), Sakura (I), Shikamaru (I)
    Risu: Sasori, Shikamaru (II)


    The speed tiers indicate that Kai's four (I) characters are almost incapable (very unlikely) to positively contribute to this battle, so the perfect game is that his three key pieces do not waste their time protecting them. Strategy on both sides is impeded by a lack of preparation time, the high level of intellect on both teams and the difficulty of executing successful plans with pieces like Naruto and Sasori.

    Humbled by his defeat and aware of Sakura's abilities, Sasori will take the Konohagakure shinobi more seriously, and Sakura in particular is under threat. Their intellectual capacities are similar, and while both learnt of each other's powers, at the beginning of their fateful battle Sakura would have been incapable of surviving Sasori's attacks without Chiyo's assistance. Risu's Shikamaru will communicate the threat of kage mane immediately, as Sakura communicates the threat of Sasori's poisons.

    Neither Shikamaru has an excellent chance of taking advantage of this situation with his natural counter (himself) present, and any successful kage mane on anyone but each other will be cancelled by the other. That leaves only each other to use kage mane on, in which case both die to the others. Kai's Shikamaru has the advantage of more pieces for more offensive options, but Risu's has the advantage of less pieces which is easier to defend, so I see this balancing out.

    Sanbi Naruto and Sakura pose a serious threat to Sasori, and in the opening stage with Sasori in Hiruko I do not see Sasori being able to harm Naruto. Sakura, however, he will take seriously and has a very respectable chance of taking out. However, due to their superior numbers it's also very likely the Hiruko will be destroyed. At this stage the upper hand is with Kai.

    About a four in five chance that the Hiruko is destroyed, and what follows is stage two. Naruto is fine, the (I) pieces are dead and the Shikamaru on either side and Sakura have both accrued some probability of having died. Stage two's pretty much determined by Sasori, depending on what card he chooses to play, but it doesn't matter much. Kai's team is too worn out to deal with the hyakki no sōen and doesn't have the right pieces anymore. If their Shikamaru is still alive, he can't deal with significant numbers. Sakura will get poisoned far too easily here, and Sasori knows what to expect of her. Shikamaru on both sides become even more effective against small numbers in the chaos, but Naruto and Sasori are excluded (Naruto due to kage bunshin, Sasori due to travelling between puppets) in that weakness. All pieces that aren't those two are under ridiculous threat at this point and will probably all be annihilated.

    Ten kage bunshin are dangerous to one of Sasori's lesser hitokugutsu, but aren't likely to be superior to them, and if Naruto spreads his chakra so thinly in a battle with a legendary jōnin he will pay a steep price, because in the midst of the hyakki no sōen Sasori is still right there and fully capable of using himself, including his flamethrowers.

    Sakura will convey to Naruto the weakness of Sasori's body, which will make things at least somewhat interesting, but after a while this battle becomes a tired Naruto against Sasori, who is bad at getting tired out and just keeps having more tricks up his sleeve. Even though his poisons are unlikely to be effective, he's skilled enough to keep himself alive and Naruto needs the Kyūbi to stay alive (so as to not be taken out by poison), which will tire him out. Sasori has hundreds of hitokugutsu, not to mention the Third Kazekage who has a damn good chance of taking out Naruto on his own, to keep Naruto busy.

    Vote: Risu
     
  10. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Is KN3 automatically assumed here? Well, read my kagebunshin strategy once more. 1,000 KB will give Sasori one hell of a nuisance and he would have all puppets full.

    KN3 unable to smash through Hiruko...?

    So Hiruko > KN3...
    Well, I don't have much to say here rather than to check out where I posted KN3's feats and hope you have a different input.
    LINK post#25

    Edit: I'd like to ask again. How will Sasori's performance be affected if it took place underwater?(lake beneath bridge)
     
  11. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    In my mind, this strategy is a poor one. Let us for a moment remove the inverse ninja law, as well as plot induced stupidity and plot no jutsu. The hyakki no sōen is comprised of one hundred hitokugutsu Sasori defeated, with which he destroyed an entire country. It is inconceivable that a significant amount of them, if not all, would have been on the level of jōnin before their deaths. Each puppet is extremely dangerous.

    One thousand kage bunshin divides Naruto's chakra significantly, resulting in one thousand clones which can be easily defeated. Every time we've seen Naruto use a vast quantity of clones, they have individually fought at a level far inferior to his actual level, and I don't see Naruto being able to afford that. Dividing his chakra and relying on a vast quantity of clones fighting below his true level isn't a good way to deal with situation. He'll lose a lot of clones quickly, and although he'll destroy many hitokugutsu, without serious crowd clearing techniques (such as the fuuton rasenshuriken) he's not going to be taking them all out in anything resembling a cost effective way.

    I just see overdoing it on bunshin resulting on Sasori going to town on this. And what if Sasori changes his mind, calls out the Third and takes the opportunity to call for an immediate satetsu kaihō through the mayhem? In the chaos of eleven hundred people fighting, Naruto's not going to be able to stage an effective counter, and after dividing his chakra that much his sanbi form's chakra shroud probably won't even offer adequate protection. Naruto's better off tanking it out in Sanbi form than dividing up and letting someone with very powerful area of effect attacks kill 'em all.
     
  12. Sasori <font color="#8B0000">● GB Genius ●</font>

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    It's a weasel.
     
  13. Sasori <font color="#8B0000">● GB Genius ●</font>

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    All of his weapons are poisoned.

    Granted, and may be helpful for alerting the others. However, this works both ways and Sasori would also know what to expect from Sakura.

    Sasori would not underestimate her this time, and may make it a priority to take her out first, knowing that she has learnt his attack patterns before.

    Kage bunshins are vurlnerable to even the lightest attacks. Also the most we have seen from kage bunshins is taijutsu, which may not be as affective on puppets which can re-form, and will not be affected in the same way as a human opponent (ie. no concussions/broken bones etc...)

    This is plausible.

    I agree with both points. Notably the Kagemane would not hold Sasori inside Hiruko.

    Yes, the jutsu is incredibly slow, and is only effective in conjuction with her usual team mates, Chouji and Shikamaru which can both hold the opponent. In this scenario, Shikamaru would not be as successful in doing so as:

    1. The opposing Shikamaru would be more than aware and be on alert of himself at all times. (This goes both ways)

    2. Sasori in Hiruko cannot be held, and if outside of Hiruko, it can be argued that Sasori can control his puppets with no movement, using chakra strings from his chest ? la 100 puppets.

    Hmmm, if this is still in character then this is a valid point.

    I agree. Sakura now has knowledge and experience, and also 5 other team mates to give a decoy/occupation on Sasori. However, much of the so called decoys are relatively canonfodder and with the combination of Shikamaru, Sakura doesn't just have to get near Sasori, but also bypass his team mate.

    Agreed. No more Shikamaru = Shikamaru plz.

    Yes, agreed. But as argued above, whether this advantage would give them the win is another matter.

    There is also the issue that this works both ways. (Sasori would not re-create the same attacks to be unpredictable)

    How about the durability of the puppets? Kage bunshins may be able to gang rape a puppet, but they may still function even with a smashed head/chest/legs etc...

    However this is plausible. I can see kage bunshins dog piling the mass of them.

    When Naruto hits Itachi with the Oodama Rasengan, both Naruto and the kage bunshin are Kyuubified although not tailed. It can be argued that if a kage bunshin was sharing part of Kyuubi's chakra, there is some basis to say that it can become tailed.

    However, this may only happen if Naruto pours out a substantially high amount of Kyuubi chakra, ie. at least 9th of his chakra to become 1 tailed (example). This amount of Kyuubi's chakra may more than likely destroy the kage bunshin due to it's poor durabilty, seeing the adverse effects it has on Naruto.

    Yes.

    Expand on your question.

    Do you mean whether the poison would still work if a character is poisoned, and fall into the water?

    Or do you mean if a poisoned weapon is used in the water, would a wound still poison the victim?

    The answer to both is most likely yes.

    Sasori's poison seems to be potent enough to react almost instantly, so it can be argued that even if dilution does happen, the victim would still suffer severe adverse affects (ie. paralysis, although takes longer due to a lower concentration of poison in the body.)

    No.

    1. lol she's going to tend to the wounded in a middle of a battle???

    Easy pickings, as I doubt the rest of her team can give substantial cover (ie. a random puppet can be sent in for the kill, while the rest are occupied with the others.)

    2. lol you can't "heal" the poison. You need an antidote to counter the effects.

    Yes, without prep-time, her knowledge of the cure is useless.

    I like Esponer's post. It's a plausible scenario with strong arguments to make it valid.
     
  14. Zeche You will not like me

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    I'm not sure if this has been stated yet but Shikamaru's shadow can move through Sasori's puppet strings. This greatly increases the role that the Shikamarus would play in this fight (as if 10 points weren't cheap enough). Obviously both teams would be aiming for Shikamaru from most to all of the time. Shikamaru (Kai's) should be able to bind Sasori as soon as his shadow touches Sasori's puppet but in that case Risu's Shikamaru's shadow can travel to the same string back to bind Kai's Shikamaru. From there on it's Risu's Shikamaru binging everyone with the help of the puppet string and tiny Satetsu strings that Sasori would make. Satetsu takes over once everyone is binded. If Kai's Shikamaru happens to bind Risu's Shikamaru, there won't be anything able to block Sasori's attacks towards him. Not to mention Shikamaru would be able to make a plan with Sasori on how to use the strings to their advantage and against the other team's.

    With all this said Risu FTW.
     
  15. Distracted Well-Known Member

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    I know poison being healed is an incorrect word, that is semantics either way.

    And believe it or not Naruto would be EXCELLENT at providing cover for her. If he's got shikamaru I'm certain he would instantly tell Naruto to henge into a bunch of them and create chaos... and you guys keep forgetting that the Kyuubi's chakra is different from Naruto's.

    If he wears himself out and the Kyuubi takes over it's a different beast altogether... though he will tire out as well shortly afterwards.

    But definitely the shikamaru on Risu's side has a MUCH stronger piece with far more unexpected moves to play with... and I would probably argue that Sasori is a far more durable and dependable piece than anyone else on the field...

    Though with the poison... I mean just busting out the kage puppet and he basically takes out everyone except for a possible Naruto in one swoop...

    Sasori just dominates all of the other pieces except for KN3...

    which if KN3 destroys Sasori it will be after a very long drawn out battle... and KN3 will degrade back to a worn out Naruto afterwards...

    which leaves a Shikamaru with 2 chakra blades to use on him... wow Sasori is pretty damn buff...
     
  16. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Or rather, I'd like to change it to "Would Sasori's performance be hindered or remain the same if he battled underwater?"

    In any case, if they destroy Sasori's heart talisman, this match is set. Chiyo was able to hold off 200+ puppets while Sakura evaded and bypassed them all.
    [Kedex]Nanatsuiro_Drops_01
    [Kedex]Nanatsuiro_Drops_01

    1,000 kagebunshins should be more than an adequate amount for stalling whilst team ^_^ aims for Sasori's heart; not to mention the bridge would most likely break and this fight may take place on the water anyways. Wouldn't Sasori be cocky enough to come at my team by himself anyways?(which puts him at the highest level of danger I can think possible)
     
  17. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    If the bridge was destroyed, the shinobi would fight above the water, but not below it. Shinobi can walk on water, and Sasori's true form can hover. Sakura's really pushing her luck surviving that long, and if one thousand kage bunshin are given the task of stalling, then there's likely no-one left to aim for Sasori's heart.

    And even if there is, Sasori can teleport between hitokugutsu, transferring his heart talisman, and on his own is more than capable of protecting himself against the competition.
     
  18. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Isn't this what I stated previously...?
    I don't think you expanded on this... exactly why is that?

    1,000 shadow clones followed by KN3 enragement to clean up the remaining mess. If Sasori is ever foolish enough to go in for the kill by himself, or in the face of KN3, he will die. It is crucial for Sasori to keep a great distance away, which will be extremely difficult.
    volume 3_chapter 28
    volume 3_chapter 28
     
  19. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    No, you said "underwater".

    By this stage everyone except Naruto is likely dead, and Naruto is busy stalling the one hundred puppets. If your intention was that he create one thousand kage bunshin and he himself attack Sasori, then he will have divided his chakra into insignificance and will die the moment he gets within ten feet of Sasori. (It'd be like a 0.1% shōten of Itachi actually expecting to delay Kakashi thirty seconds).

    If Sakura is still alive, then we already know she's incapable of doing the deed. It took Chiyo and Sasori's willingness in the end to strike the heart talisman.

    You can't have one thousand kage bunshin and the pictures you're linking me to. Choose. Either one thousand kage bunshin or a Naruto who just divided his chakra equally one thousand times. Unless Naruto was holding back in those images by a factor of one thousand (he wasn't), you can't have both.

    If it's Sanbi Naruto, then Sasori has enough pieces at his disposal to last Naruto out, enough cunning to survive Naruto's attacks and teleportation between his hitokugutsu to round it off. Naruto will fall to one of his hitokugutsu's attacks eventually, or lose his tailed state and fall to poison. Close fight though.

    If Sanbi Naruto starts divvying up his chakra so that his clones outnumber Sasori's hitokugutsu ten to one, then he'd better do his damn best not to make it obvious which one of the thousand is him, or he's dead. If he keeps it unknown, they'll be lots of slaughter but the end result will be similar to above ? Naruto uses a lot of chakra, lots of pieces on both sides die, Sasori keeps throwing out more techniques, hitokugutsu, etc. at an unchanged pace, Naruto tires, slips up and dies.
     
  20. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    No I asked how Sasori's performance specifically would be underwater.

    I think you are getting confused with "chakra" and combination of strength.

    I don't understand what you're definition of "this stage" really is. Sasori begins in Hiruko. Naruto creates shadow clones. Where's the gap between this where the rest of my team members suddenly perish? Sasori is a cocky character; he will have no interest with partnering with Shikamaru anyways.


    You misunderstand. Why is it hard to believe Naruto can perform 1,000 shadow clones, then engage in an enraged tail state as soon as the clones are dispersed.

    After all, I posted some scans a bit higher up of pre skip Naruto performing Nisen Rendan(2,000 hit combo) against Gaara with lord knows how many clones involved, and was able to summon Gamabunta afterwards. I think he was able to summon a bit more clones beforehand as well.

    :notrust

    Sasori will last off KN3? Just like Orochimaru was able to, eh? Naruto proceeded in going an extra step into KN4, a far more detrimental state than the previous states, and was stationary the entire time. KN3 will last more than the time required for this match to end just fine.

    You would then have to conjure up the few offensive attacks Sasori has that would be able to pierce KN3's chakra shroud, or chakra force he emits by roaring. Then the kyuubi's chakra = poison nullifier debate, blah blah. Too many factoring obstacles blocking you here.
     
  21. MISTNINJA Master of the Hidden Mist.

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    Kai
    Team ^_^
    KN3 Naruto(before wind training)
    Post Shikamaru w/ Chakra Blades
    Pre-Ino
    Pre-Chouji
    Pre-Shikamaru
    Post Sakura
    Pre-Sakura

    Risu
    Team Deadly Combination
    Sasori
    Post-Shikamaru (w/blades)


    The battle takes place on the great naruto bridge. This does not provide a lot of room for Sasori's 100 puppets or KN3. If Naruto goes KN3 his teammates will have to scatter. Kai spoke of clones from Naruto to battle the 100 puppets. I do not believe his clones would match up well against Sasori's puppets. Naruto going KN3 is the trump card to this battle. With that much power I doubt that he could be bound by Shika. If he is bound then he will not be able to hold him for long. Sasori has a lot of abilities but none can stop KN3. His Iron sand will not be enough to stop KN3. Meanwhile Shika is fighting himself and the rest of Kai's team to no avail.

    The winner is Kai Team ^_^
     
  22. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    All right, please do not say "no" to something you did say. You did say "underwater", so the response is "yes, I asked…", not "no, I asked". To the point, my response is that you seemed to suggest that the state of affairs of Sasori fighting underwater may occur as a consequence of the bridge being destroyed. And my response was that if the bridge is destroyed, Sasori will hover above the water. He'd never be underwater, so it doesn't matter.

    Please do elucidate your feelings, otherwise there's nothing I can do.

    Read my post, I explained all of this in detail. In brief, you proposed one thousand bunshin as a counter to Sasori's final move, not from the beginning. I gave definitions for "stage one" (up until Hiruko is destroyed) and "stage two" (everything after), and my rationale for believing that only those two are left in stage two. Again, please read my opening post.

    And we've already established that you cannot claim the other team will not cooperate, that is desperate nonsense.

    Naruto did not summon Gamabunta while the thousands of clones were extant, while his chakra was divided. I don't misunderstand at all: if Naruto divvies his chakra up, what's left on his own is not enough to be a risk to Sasori's hitokugutsu form.

    Orochimaru's body was rejecting him, and he was playing around as well. Besides which, Sasori is better at staying alive and all things said, quite possibly the more powerful opponent. We clearly disagree on this matter, so let us leave it be: my vote is not changing.

    As I've already said, the chakra shroud is either lessened by him dividing his chakra many times (a foolish tactic), or it wears out as he gets exhausted, because Sasori is a far better master of attrition than Naruto. Sasori has the chakra of 298 high level shinobi in his pocket, has a body that reforms indefinitely and can easily teleport amongst his army. The Third Kazekage's more powerful attacks (including its physical ones) would be pretty damn harmful to three-tailed Naruto, and of 297 other hitokugutsu he's very likely to have other effective attacks.
     
  23. Distracted Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... poison... small enclosed area.. dueling shikamaru's....

    this would be one EPIC battle... but without plot-no-jutsu Sasori just completel obliterates the battle field here...

    Even if all else fails as soon as he brings out the Kazekage it's over. That puppet alone would be able to survive KN3 and put a hurting on it WHILE wiping out anyone unlucky enough to still be standing...

    Sasori may even lose to KN-3 by that point... but KN-3 will be tired, beaten up, and collapsing under poison... in which case Risu's shikamaru should still be standing (go enclosed places) and will simply walk up and casually stab any of the poor suffering poisoned people in the head and end the fight.

    Team Deadly Combination for the win with a lot of difficulty!
     
  24. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    This is petty, I'm not here to trade grammar mistakes with you. In case you had to know, my usage of the word "no" is equally defined as "incorrect".

    "Incorrect", I asked how Sasori's performance would be underwater.

    From your paragraph of explanation, you believe that the totality of strength of 1,000 kagebunshins = strength of 1 Naruto. This is clearly not the case, as countless battles Naruto has been engaged in throughout the entire series.

    Kage Bunshins = equal distribution of chakra, not division of other attributes(with the exception of durability, it's extremely light).

    I'm starting to get worried here. I strongly believe I've been stating one thousand kagebunshins?

    Really. You gave absolutely no rationale to how the (I) characters died in this post, as I've searched for it several times.
    ^Where is the reasoning in this? You go from comparing both our Shikamarus to a high probability of Hiruko getting smashed. Suddenly, Pre Shikamaru, Chouji, Ino, and Sakura have been wiped clean off your radar.

    The matches are in character. Sasori only saw in Sakura a nuisance and a "safe-to-be" sideliner. There is no reason to believe Sasori will see Shikamaru as a valuable asset or give him any merit, so Shikamaru will have to operate under his own ideals.

    ...then why is it farfetched to believe Naruto can't become tailed in the aftermath of the KB's being destroyed?

    No no, my point here is: Orochimaru and KN3 were having playtime. Orochimaru was evading his offensive strikes; this time period of sparring + time period which Naruto was in KN4 is more than enough time for this battle. I don't know why you brought up this non-concerning issue. Nevertheless, yeah I learned it's extremely difficult to change other people's opinions when their focused on their ideas on the matter.

    This is nothing to what Naruto has endured. Pre skip Naruto:
    1. Summons Gamakichi, 5 KageBunshins to attack Gaara
    2. ? Kagebunshins(Nisen Rendan[2,000 hit combo]
    3. Summons Gamabunta
    4. Borrows Kyuubi's chakra
    5. Collides his head with Gaara's with as much force he could
    6. Lands a final punch, is able to inch on the ground

    Naruto summoning 1,000 KB's and going tailed afterwards is less chakra deprived than the former.

    I already covered the hitokugutsu issue with mass KB's and team efforts. Sandaime Kazekage- hmmm, yeah he's a great problem. Do we know the speeds of the iron sand? KN3 could very well be zipping across the current battle stage. Hide underwater, what will happen to the sand once it makes contact? How about "Naruto torpedoes?" Think about these before you ride on Sasori's wave of destruction feats so casually.
     
  25. SpitefulSerpent5 Agent of Conviction

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    Erm, yeah... as long as we're taking canon into play here, Naruto has already seen that he hurt Sakura when going Kyuubi and has already been trying to supress it. I'm not so sure that he would even go KN3 unless somebody else dies. Taking that into account, wouldn't Shikamaru let Sasori (who also knows how dangerous a nine-tails jinchiruuki is due to his employment at Akatsuki) to aim for Naruto before hitting everybody else.

    Considering the fact that Risu's team has two geniuses (For Sasori to coordinate hundreds of puppets into a perfect fighting force while using tactics and such classifies him as a genius in my books) added to the fact that both geniuses have at least some knowledge of Naruto's Kyuubi capabilities, and that they will be advising each other on said capabilities I doubt that Naruto will even use the Kyuubi during this fight.
     
  26. Spell on a Forums Break

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    Tey improved, sure. But without help she isn't able to smash Hiruko, because approaching it without getting a scratch is nearly impossible.

    You forgot about Iron Sand. This:
    Link removed
    and there is no KB army or at least it would be seriously thined up. Besides I'm sure Naruto will go tail mode and charge at Sasori.

    Yes, thanks to Kyuubi. However It was his limit, if he doesn't go tail mode he will be probably unable to fight for a longer time. But everything is speculation, we haven't seen Naruto fighting like that after timeskip so we don't know how it would look like.


    We don't know Sasori's stats. But we know KB is destroyed after damage. Sasori is a genius puppeter, we've seen he is able to control his puppets nearly perfect. That's why they are incredible in close combatLink removed

    Yes, but if one transforms, rest is suffering and are unable to fight.


    He transformed pretty fast when he noticed he hadn't done anything to Deidara.

    Possible, but approaching Sasori won't be so easy. Firstly Naruto has to get rid of Hiruko and Iron Sand. That's a big problem. Your team doesn't have an antidote.

    I don't know. Do you mean it would be washed out from weapons? Well, I'm not a poison specialist, but I'm pretty sure many posisons can't be washed easily.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
  27. Esponer Brief Intermission

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    I am not being petty, we are having a misunderstanding. We are both being rather roundabout about repairing it due to our guarded natures in this discussion, and I am equally guilty of that, so I apologise.

    You first asked, "Acknowledging our battle stage, will the poison still be effective if used in water?", and later reiterated "How will Sasori's performance be affected if it took place underwater?(lake beneath bridge)". You later changed the question upon partial response to, ""Would Sasori's performance be hindered or remain the same if he battled underwater?"

    My response to this is that "battled underwater" had no reason to occur, and I explained that Sasori's hitokugutsu can hover and that shinobi can stand on water. Acknowleding the battle stage seems to equate to me to, "in the likely case that the bridge breaks and the shinobi are above water". In which case I don't understand why we even need to question how Sasori would do underwater.

    Could you clarify? The bridge breaking doesn't put Sasori underwater, so what does why do you wish to know this?

    I'm not claiming that other attributes are reduced, but it's a distinct possibility considering how Naruto's kage bunshin are supposed to be exact, equal copies at that moment and always fight below his own level. However, if Naruto divides his chakra one thousand times then he still has little chakra to work with at the moment, until the technique ends. In that state I don't see him challenging Sasori's hitokugutsu one bit.

    He doesn't have the chakra available that he had in three-tailed form on his own, so he can't use those massive explosions and probably not even the chakra claws, and his chakra shroud isn't making him very hard to attack anymore. Chakra divided that much he can probably use Rasengan at the best. This is a terribly watered down Naruto, and not in my mind capable of killing Sasori while one thousand kage bunshin "distract" (obliterate themselves) against the hyakki no sōen. In every sense Naruto is better off not using tajū kage bunshin. On his own in three-tailed state, the hyakki no sōen can't touch him due to his defences and his attack is a more serious risk to Sasori. After sharing his chakra out one thousand times, he can now be harmed, isn't a risk to Sasori and has made a mountain of fodder.

    Forgive me this analogy, but in D&D terms Naruto and Sasori have DR (damage reduction). Naruto's is pretty insane in three-tailed state, so much so that none of the one hundred puppets can harm him, and his attack is more than Sasori's DR in that state too. You're suggesting he goes for an option which reduces his attack below Sasori's DR, reduces his DR enough that he can be harmed by all one hundred and one country-destroying hitokugutsu he faces, and makes one thousand 1 hit point fodder with good skills.


    Shorthand.

    First sentence of the post.

    The (I) characters, as I established in the first post, cannot usefully contribute due to the speed tiers. I sincerely hope your team is not protecting them, as that will be a serious disadvantage paid for for three shinobi who can't do anything here. They're wiped clean off their radar to Sasori's first tail sweep, or the first three kunai to be shot out of his mouth, or a casual flamethrower, while not even really letting his guard down.

    No, we've already established that all teams in this competition have cooperation. Also, if you read my opening post carefully you'll see I gave an argument for this battle swaying towards Risu that didn't actually have Sasori and Shikamaru work together. It had Sasori do his own thing, and Risu's Shikamaru be an opportunist and do the most sensible thing at the time which is tell Sasori to be careful of kage mane, then do everything he can to keep Sasori alive. Shikamaru's a rather intelligent lad, and he'll recognise that Sasori is the only thing between him and destruction.

    It is not. If you want the kage bunshin to be a distraction, then Naruto needs to attack at the same time. If you don't want them to do that, then it's fine but you have no distraction. If the kage bunshin come first, then Sasori destroys them and Naruto's wasted a lot of chakra.

    These are non-objective points. You're claiming without reason that a brief skirmish with Orochimaru will require less of Naruto than a fight to the death against Sasori, or that those six feats above require more chakra than Naruto will require against Sasori.

    We don't have much to discuss here. Your evaluation puts Naruto at an offensive advantage, meaning he doesn't need to do much to kill Sasori. My evaluation puts Sasori at a defensive advantage, and Sasori being himself doesn't get tired and uses his hitokugutsu's chakra to power their attacks, so he's a master of attrition. In my circumstance, Naruto gets worn down and careless. In yours, Naruto slaughters Sasori rapidly.

    And as we've seen, I disagree that you've given an argument that defeats the hyakki no sōen, and in fact I think your argument is suicide and the worst possible move you could make. We're at an impasse there.

    Iron Sand is not sand. Underwater the iron will form
    [Fe(H20)6]^3+. I don't see any of that posing a problem to the ability of magnetic forces to control it, though. Also, we're on a bridge, not in the middle of an ocean, so it's easy to get back to land.

    Sanbi Naruto has the power to be a threat to Sasori, but its chakra shroud is easy enough to see that Naruto won't be doing these sorts of tricks successfully. And actually, I'd argue that I'm not riding on Sasori's "wave of destruction" feats, but his attrition and survivability traits as contrasted with your riding on Naruto's "wave of destruction" feats.
     
  28. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    Likewise, to say the least.

    It was for my personal reference whether his control over/style of combat of his puppets would be of any lesser difference underwater.

    It is not a distinct possibility; we have witnessed and have been provided with an explanation of the technique... There would be no reason for Naruto to waste his chakra dividing his "strength" 10 or so times if he could dish out the exact same pain with a single punch. His speed isn't divided into tenths or twentieths....that's nonsense supported with baseless "possibilities."

    You missed it again and this is what I don't understand. Naruto creates 1,000 kagebunshins and this is used as a "test of destruction"(seeing how many puppets he is able to plow through). Yeah, they'll all be annihilated but definitely not without taking a number of puppets in the process. THIS is where he rages into KN3, gaining alienable chakra.

    Wait, what are you talking about? Naruto gains chakra when he becomes kyuubified and beyond; it doesn't become his sole power anymore. This is why Jiraiya puts in simple terms he has "two types of chakra?"

    Considering this is on a bridge, there isn't much space to battle here. Either this, or the fight can take place on the water beneath. Chiyo and Sakura were able to bypass the hyakki no sōen, and reach Sasori. Chiyo had ten times less than the amount of fighters Sasori had, and you find it okay to believe that ten times more the fighters PLUS one of the combatants in their last battle(Sakura) won't be able to do so?

    "1,000 1 hit fodders" was my original disposition. Where did you suddenly get Naruto reducing "DR" two steps before this?

    They will all be able to hold off the puppets for a short while. Sakura is able to go through this midst and effectively evade incoming strikes[she was able to to this when it was actually aimed towards her]... with greater numbers to aid her than last time, it will be an easier task rushing towards Sasori and crushing his heart.

    Of course, Sasori could always transfer to another puppet. After the barrage of KB's have been cleared through, the bursting into KN3 will occur. By "this stage" as you would call it, Sasori has nothing to even touch KN3 with and will be unable to even keep a plausible distance for defending himself. KN3 zips towards him and destroys every single one of his puppets that he decides to transit into, and hits his target in the very end with a roar.

    I see your notion here and agree.

    Well, I guessed you just missed Risu's previous matches when the exact same strategy had been used against him by various other members.

    This is an irrelevant discussion that I have no interest of. Shikamaru can operate how he wishes, but that can most likely give the equal opportunity for my Shikamaru as well.

    Wait..why is this for you decide? I've already made this clear. The mass of KB's are to destroy as many of his puppets as possible. That, in no way, gives Naruto the green light for him to go in and unnecessarily risk his life.

    You act as Sasori comes on top with all his poker chips. Those KB's have interesting and surprising teamwork that would storm through the lot of those puppets.

    Naruto's endurance is unbelievable. Believing KN3 will burn out in the current circumstances is being completely narrow-minded.

    Yes, because Sasori with a few remaining amount of puppets can outrun KN3. Orochimaru was unable to effectively evade KN3's onslaught; his left arm go ripped off as a result. One punch from KN1 melted half his face. Trying to evade KN3 is a horrible idea.

    Yeah I'll just say I'm done here. I'm not swaying you in the other direction or achieving anything by consecutively counter-quoting you.
     
  29. Sasori <font color="#8B0000">● GB Genius ●</font>

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    Chiyo and Sakura was never able to hold off or bypass them.

    Even in the second link you can see that Sakura although dodged one attack, still had puppets coming after her after she through the chakra sealing ball.

    I can't b bothered to quote the rest of the thread lol

    Also, Esponer and Kai, pointing out grammatical and minor errors are petty and do not hold any weight towards your argument.

    edit: ok u resolved that yourselves lol
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2007
  30. Dudemancool Member

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    Vote for Risu's team.


    Everybody in Kai's team dies to Hiruko's traps and projectiles, and if 1 or 2 lucky ones get to survive (namely Naruto and Post Sakura, since Naruto is the most skilled and his shadow clones would help a lot. Sakura is an insane dodger and has fought Hiruko before, + she should have an antidote), Shikamaru shadow tendrils/neckhold kills them while they're regaining their balance from the barrage of traps.

    Suppose things take a turn for the worst (the best for Naruto's team) and Naruto goes KN3 when he sees his teammates getting slaughtered. I think Sasori and Shikamaru would still be perfectly capable of beating only KN3.
     
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