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US, Baghdad warn against Kurdish independence vote

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by Khaleesi, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Khaleesi Moderator

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    Let us use you in every Middle Eastern conflict, please have your soldiers die for us, we are your friends but nope don't even think about having our support for independence.

    Oh America, can't say I'm surprised but I am disappointed.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxn...rn-against-kurdish-independence-vote.amp.html
     
  2. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    I've heard several times that Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world that don't have their own country.

    But that could be through a strategic definition of "ethnic group" since the criteria for what constitutes one are not universally agreed on.
     
  3. Khaleesi Moderator

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    I've always found this to be the case and I've come across it in my research on Kurds, etc a lot of times but idk how true it is. We are a very big group though.
     
  4. wibisana still newbie

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    Kurds > Tibet?
    Tamil too. They dont have their own Natiom IIRC

    Tamil pop is +60millions
     
  5. WT #for the watch

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    Kurd people are some of the nicest I've met. Hope it goes well for them
     
  6. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    There's only 7.5 million Tibetans. And of those only 3 million actually live in Tibet.

    The western sympathy for Tibet derives from:

    1. The personal charisma of the Dalai Lama.

    2. The spectacular circumstances under which China (re-?)conquered Tibet in 1959.

    3. The stereotype of Himalayan countries as tranquil abodes of enlightenment where celebrities go to kick their cocaine addiction and become one with the universe. (See #1)
     
  7. wibisana still newbie

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    Yeah i am under impression of the size of tibet
    It is quite big.

    Make me assumed its population would be max of 30mill not just 3 million

    Maybe because it is mountainous. Less fertille than lowland riverside cities
     
  8. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Yep, Tibet is the size of South Africa and would be the 24th-largest country if independent. But as you say, the mountainous terrain makes it unsuitable to agriculture, which inhibits population growth.

    So their population is only on par with Armenia. They'd be the 135th-most populous (of 194) if independent.
     
  9. Mider T VM Rapist

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    We should be supporting Kurds independence, if we play it right it could be very advantageous to both of us.
     
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  10. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    Well, the Independence Referendum is next month, so the reality being is that the result should dictate if Kurds could form their own country. If they do, then it's great news. Otherwise, it's unfortunate news.
     
  11. Death Arcana XIII. La Muerte

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    Viva Rojava and Kurdistan. I send my best intents to the Kurdish people.
     
  12. wibisana still newbie

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    I will say this again
    What good of newly independent landlocked country
    The former country which it gain independence (Turkey, Iraq, Syria) will be so burthurt and dont let them use their port.
    And they will be fucked.
     
  13. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Will the Kurds also grab the Kurdish portion of Syria?
     
  14. wibisana still newbie

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    Why not
    They spread from Turkey, Iraq and Syria
     
  15. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Yeah, there is no way Turkey is giving up their territory with Erdogan in power though. Syria, on the other hand, is in the perfect position to be divided up.
     
  16. Khaleesi Moderator

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    Yup. Rojava is already de facto autonomous. Rojava becoming independent and unifying with Basur won't be possible if Basur doesn't become independent first though.
     
  17. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    This has been my concern as well. An independent Kurdistan would border Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Armenia.

    Armenia would be the only non-hostile neighbors. But as a former Soviet republic they are Russia's sphere of influence, so trading with them is selling your soul to Putin.

    If Kurds are ok with being a Russian vassal then I wish them good luck, though. Independence is long overdue.
     
  18. wibisana still newbie

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    Ideally Syria should give up their land and give new Kurdistan something equal of wakhan Coridor
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakhan_Corridor



    Dont have to be wide
    But big enough for Roads and Trains +ports

    And surely China will develop/invest the roads and ports

    For them new market is always great
     
  19. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    Wouldn't war as a result of a unilateral declaration of independence be more unfortunate?
     
  20. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    If the victor's opponent doesn't concede, then it's a possibility. Unless you're referring to outside forces like Erdogan.
     
  21. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    Yeah him, or you know, the rest of Iraq and their government who have a legitimate claim to that land (and its ressources). If secessions were just a matter of holding unilateral referendums, the whole Crimea thing would've (or rather should've) been totally ok. And the Scotts, the Catalans and others wouldn't need the approval of their countries' governments to hold such referendums (that are binding).
     
  22. afgpride Well-Known Member

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    Iraqi Kurdistan is an autonomous region with a distinct language, ethnicity, culture and history. For such a fervent Palestine supporter you sure get a hard on for opposing Kurdish independence at the first whiff of it, whether it's in Syria or Iraq.
     
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  23. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    Hence why it all depends if they concede to the Referendum and willing to cooperate with the Kurds in forming their own country (if Kurdistan Establishment were to win). Otherwise, what would be the point of a Referendum?
    And it also depends if the Kurds are willing to accept the result as well.

    Can't say this can technically be compared to the Crimea incident, since it was sudden and resulted in riots. But Scotland is a fair comparison, I suppose.
     
  24. Khaleesi Moderator

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    Please do tell why Iraq has a legitimate claim to Kurdish land that they agreed was autonomous and has been for years. And don't bother answering if your answer is the imaginary lines that the British and French drew up. I expect more from a Palestinians supporter tbh, why do they have a claim on that land but Kurds don't?
     
  25. Rain Eine Schöne Ruine

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    Is it true that Iraqi Kurdistan is basically ruled with an iron fist by a very conservative Barzani mafia clan? If that is indeed the case, i don't see reasons to be particularly enthusiastic about it's independence. I always thought those people there, Arabs, Kurds, Jews, Palestinians etc. should strive to learn to live together and not fall back into petty provincialism.

    Rojava on the other hand is a cause worth supporting, with their emphasis on social justice, emancipation of women etc, although they should seek to spread these ideals also to Arabs and other ethnic groups. But either way it's good for Middle East that something like Rojava exists - it means Arab women for example can say: "Hey look at how they're doing it there in Rojava" and start demanding their own rights much more aggressively.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 5:13 PM
  26. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    Ok, so there is no point to that referendum, until the Iraqi government is willing to concede to losing that territory? And yet the referendum is taking place, regardless.
    The Kurds accepting the results of their own referendum isn't the issue here, trust me.

    Crimea is a perfect example, because it happened without the consent of Kiew. And you can also expect riots of non-kurds suddenly waking up in that new Kurdistan.

    Where did I say that the Kurds don't have a claim to their own land? What I said was that the rest of Iraq has a right to that land, but that doesn't make it exclusive. Iraq (as a whole) has a right to maintain its territorial integrity, as does every country. That's why Russia is being sanctioned by the west despite the majority of Crimeans agreeing with the annexation. They violated Ukraine's territorial integrity.

    This whole thing is a matter of 'self-determination of a people vs the territorial integrity of the state'. Both are rights under international law, but the latter (usually) trumps the former (hence why the Scotts, the Catalans etc. need permission from the central government to secede).


    And yeah, it sucks, but those "imagenery lines" are what everybody has to deal with. Attempting to unilaterally move those lines usually comes with a high price, to be paid in blood.



    My take on all this? I want what's best for the region. Kurds deserve their own country and I hope they'll get it. But an unilateral move is risky and the consequences need to be weighed carefully, not least for their own sake.
     
  27. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    That's not what I mean tho. What I meant is that the Iraqi Government is willing to respect their wishes if Kurdistan Establishment wins; to go against the result would betray the Kurds' wishes and would make this Referendum meaningless.
    That's when I can see a conflict happening between the Iraqi Government and the Kurds, which also ignores what people like Erdogan would do.

    I don't know, the Crimea incident had no Referendum that allows the people to align with the Russian Federation IIR. The Kurdistan Referendum was planned since the defeat of ISIL in Mosul. That's why I don't see much similarities between the two.
     
  28. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    The Iraqi government is opposed to the mere idea of such a referendum, period. So I really have no idea what it is you're trying say here.
    That's not the issue here. Crimeans have been in favor of Russia over Ukraine for years prior, according to polls. Russians moved into Crimea after the coup happened in Kiew and pro-western/anti-russian forces took over (threatening their naval base in Sevastopol, Crimea), who of course would never had tolereated a referendum in Crimea. And, as expected, they (Russians) were welcomed by a majority of Crimeans.

    So what it comes down to, is: Crimeans wanted out. Kurds want out.
     
  29. Dragon D. Luffy You can only cry when it's all over.

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    Textbook USA
     
  30. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Wait so you're in favor of Russia's unilateral move to invade Crimea and cause a short war with Ukraine SoG? Funny your talk about violent consequences in regards to Iraq, which has far less resources and time to react similarly.
     

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