1. Ho ho ho! It is time to celebrate!

    Christmas is coming, and we invite you to join the NFs Ho-Ho-Holidaze Event!

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Stop Scrolling!
    Attention - When discussing new chapters of an anime or manga, please use a source from the official list of approved sources. If you would like to contribute to the list, please do so in the suggestions section.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. If you write blogs about the current anime season (for linking) or like to add descriptions / impressions on certain series and like to add them to our wiki, then send us a ticket.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Santi would like to notify you guys about The Alley Banner Contest
    Dismiss Notice
  6. We invite you to join two banner contests in  New Leaf and Naruto Battledome.

    Dismiss Notice

Was pre-Allaince Konoha a fascist organization?

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki' started by Karyu Endan, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

    Messages:
    2,317
    Likes Received:
    279
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Reputation:
    I just started political philosophy in Uni and have been tasked with writing a short piece about the relevance of fascism in current times. I won't share my real world thoughts here, but as I was reading various articles about it I kept noticing similarities between what generally occurred in historical fascist governments and how Konoha was run, at least until the formation of the Shinobi Alliance.

    First of all, the glorification of its leader. This is kind of a given. The Hokage all have their faces carved into a mountain for eternity and are, most of the time at least, idolized as powerful, self-sacrificing ninja that all Konoha ninja are encouraged to emulate to the best of their ability. And outright denouncing the Hokage? Blasphemous. Just look at how Naruto reacts when Tsunade initially rejects the offer to become Fifth Hokage, or better yet when Naruto reacts to Obito saying the Hokage suck so much he no longer looks up to them. In Obito's case, Naruto says that anyone who bad-mouths the Hokage is just lashing out in jealousy that they can't be as awesome as the Hokage are, and in Tsunade's, Naruto takes Tsunade's refusal as evidence she doesn't deserve the position and the trip to find her was a waste of time.

    Then there's the glorification of the state. While it's never that in-your-face about it, the Will of Fire has a lot of nationalistic undertones. The Will of Fire paints any and all individual sacrifices for the betterment of the village as heroic, and conversely, that leaving the village for personal pursuits as selfish to a fault at best and deserving of death at worst. When Sakumo Hatake failed a mission to save his teammates, his teammates hated him for it and Sakumo was ultimately driven to commit Seppuku (and leave Kakashi a six year old orphan) to retain his honour. While public opinion of Sakumo improved since his death (to the point that Kakashi being his son is a point in Kakashi's favour to most people), it's still a standout example of martyrdom for the sake of the village that was common among Konoha people until Naruto's generation started slowly changing things.

    As for a fixation on military power? Konoha is the Land of Fire's military. And according to Hashirama's flashback, the Fire Daimyo agreed to give the village half the influence over the country. And the other villages seem to have adopted similar policies. Effectively, the Daimyo spends half his budget on his military, with the remaining half needing to be divided among all the boring, off-panel civilian goings-on. That's a fairly significant bias in favour of the military.

    Now, fear-mongering and the reliance on a scapegoat to keep people united... This is all over the place. Jinchuriki and the Bijuu's main purpose in the villages is to be a deterrent to keep the villages from attacking each other (note that the villages went to war three times after this agreement was reached) ... and a scapegoat to direct the village's hatred in case some tragedy befalls them and the guilty party cannot be found or punished. This is how Naruto begins his story: as a walking hate sink to appease all of Konoha's anger over the Kurama attack (ostensibly because no one knows about Tobi's involvement and their previous scapegoat, the Uchiha clan, was now all but extinct). Of course, the moment the villages can no longer use their Jinchuriki as scapegoats (thanks to Akatsuki taking them away) is the same moment Obito comes in and effectively takes their place. Just this time the villages are all united against a common enemy rather than united against each other.

    The next thing I want to bring up is an inability to remain consistent in political convictions. This is by and large not the case... but Tobirama is a special case that more than qualifies. He claims more than once that Konoha's leader should be decided democratically, and opposes Hashirama's wish to make Madara First Hokage because of it. But as soon as Tobirama becomes Hokage himself he has no problem being an authoritarian arbitrator. He created the Police Force and made the Uchiha run it presumably without their input, and in his final moments appointed Hiruzen as Third Hokage without regard for any second opinion. Making promises "for the people" just long enough to get into power, and then promptly abandoning these promises to further their own agenda, is a hallmark of fascist leaders.

    The only common aspect of fascism that Konoha doesn't embody, as far as I have noticed, is a totalitarian belief that the government needs to be involved in all aspects of life. Danzo certainly believes this and he trains Root up with this in mind (i.e. their only identity is an emotionless tool to be used and thrown away at Danzo's convenience, to the point that a Root agent is visibly disturbed when they see that Sai has a hobby), but this is missing from Konoha as a whole. Ino is able to help out her mother's civilian flower shop on the side. Sakura spends her time off-duty reading at the local library. Ninja are allowed to have rather diverse hobbies and, as long as one does not openly defy the establishment, one is free to pursue them. A completely fascist organization would restrict what a ninja could even be exposed to so they don't develop any distractions from becoming the perfect soldier they're supposed to be. For example, Teuchi would not be allowed to have a ramen stand operating within Konoha because the food is fattening and addictive. Konoha doesn't do that.

    Am I just seeing things or did Kishimoto actually write a fascist, if not totalitarian, organization?
     
    Tags:
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
    • List
  2. Analyzer New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2017
    Reputation:
    Konoha is definitely not fascist. You need to remember that they still answer to the Fire Daimyo as well, and Daimyo's are typically hereditary, you were born into it. If we're talking about the villages, They're more like military republics. And as you mentioned about the businesses, they are both private and state funded. You can also rise from a nameless clan into great status.

    Facism is rather specific, radical authoritian nationalism. The government represented in Konoha is more aken to typical structures of the 1500s with modern aspects, rather than early-mid 1900s Mussolini or Germany.
     
  3. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Yes and no.

    When Hashirama and Madara founded Konoha there was no fascism on it not but this began to change when Tobirama was elected as the Hokage and Danzo was taught by him. Konoha always had a dark side and I'd consider it fascist. Danzo was a fascist and when he was an elder he screwed it all the time just like he did with the Uchiha Downfall. Tobirama and Danzo are responsibles for the fascism in Konoha.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany, Peru, Brazil
    You already know my opinion about it. Kishi just did a nasty job in his story leading to these conclusions. @HoroHoro
     
  5. Spider-Man have a nice day

    Messages:
    6,009
    Likes Received:
    2,033
    Trophy Points:
    1,468
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    France
    Yes, Konoha is (and still is) fascist. Konoha is a military dictatorship. The power structure in Konoha is primarily ruled by the military personnels, only Jonin and the Konoha Elders have the right to participate in the decision of the next Hokage, and their leadership is mainly by their combat prowess. Their primary income relies on military operations like assassination, espionage and sabotage, thus it's only natural that the militants sit on top of the pecking order, but this also gives them reason to get the village involved in conflicts and violence.

    Conflicts and military operations kill and maim. The human cost can easily turn into discontent and questioning of the authority. The government uses methods such as brainwashing all of their soldiers with jingoistic pride like the Will of Fire to demand absolute loyalty and obedience to the authorities including if not limited to the following:

    #1: It demands it's people to put their "duty" to the state over themselves and their loved ones, Itachi was ordered by the government into preemptively killing his clan for the sake of protecting the status quo of Konoha. Kakashi's dad failed a mission because he decided it was more important to save his friends instead of abiding the rules. As a result, he was shunned by Konoha. Their indoctrination was so toxic as fuck it drove him to suicide.

    #2: They justify the violence and abuse against its own people, Konoha for instance trivialized the Uchiha and marginalized them as far as back as Tobirama's era when he drove them to the outskirts of Konoha for reasons of irrational distrust and fear and due to something as asinine as the "Curse of Hatred" conspiracy theories. It's kinda similar to how Hitler claimed that the Jewish people would be the catalyst destruction of Germany and must be purged. On top of that, Konoha has no qualms hunting down and killing any soldier who attempts to leave the village, even if you're just a 12-year-old kid.

    #3: Kids are taught the Will of Fire from the very beginning as a means to forge a national unity that revolves around the sentiment of enduring hardships. Even as late as Boruto, Naruto is indoctrinating the next generation to put the village before their families, before themselves and their happiness, dismissing that Sarada is visibly upset by her father's decades of absence and similarly to Boruto, albeit, milder.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
    • Winner x 3
    • Agree x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Optimistic x 1
    • List
  6. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    I agree on this all. You've actually made good points.
    Very well done, good job Horo.
     
  7. Karyu Endan Smilies = Not serious

    Messages:
    2,317
    Likes Received:
    279
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Reputation:
    I think you may be conflating fascism with traditional nationalism. At least according to Gentile, they are fundamentally different. Nationalism posits that there is a distinction between the needs of the state and the needs of the individual, and that when in conflict, the needs of the state come first and that the individual needs to sacrifice their personal desires for the good of the larger community. Fascism denies a distinction altogether; the needs of the individual and state are one and the same at all times. The individual wants to be the best version of themselves they can be, and the state wants to provide the means for all individuals within it to be the best people.

    The problem is that fascism does not just hold that the state provides the means for its people to be the best, but it has a duty to make its people the best. So the ones in charge come up with a "best human" and do everything they can to make the entire population fit the mold. Of course, that means that all who deviate from the ideal must either be reformed so that they do fit the mold, or be removed from society altogether if such reformation is impossible. After all, who would want to live in a place where they are surrounded by superiors with no way of becoming just as good as the norm? A fascist does not see the harm of an individual for the sake of society as a necessary evil or an act of sacrifice, like a nationalist would; they see it as an act of mercy.

    Ultimately, both nationalism and fascism will make the individual suffer for the good of the collective. But while nationalism sees this suffering as a necessary evil justified by utility, fascism sees this suffering as a good thing for the individual in and of itself. While nationalism claims to do wrong for the right reasons, fascism claims to never be wrong at all.

    Naruto is inconsistent with this. On one hand, like you have pointed out there are many times when making personal sacrifices for the good of the community is glorified, to extremes even. But putting it in those terms is nationalist, not necessarily fascist. Of course, there are also times when characters claim their needs and those of Konoha are one and the same. Hiruzen on more than one occasion claims the entire village is his family and protecting one means that he is necessarily protecting the other (though in practice Hiruzen is nowhere near authoritarian enough to be a fascist leader; his primary character flaw is precisely that he's too soft). Minato's decision to die sealing Kurama in Naruto, rather than survive to raise Naruto personally, was made with a similar mindset. He believed that letting Kurama die with Kushina would destabilize Konoha and lead to it being destroyed just like Uzu was, and that would be worse for Naruto than living as an orphan in a thriving village. Minato genuinely believed that he was doing Naruto a favour robbing him of both his parents rather than just the one who would have died anyway. That is the fascist way of looking at it, not the nationalist one.
     
  8. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    They played a part but the Uchiha being a clan of hate and jealousy also played a part.
     
  9. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Yeah, I am not justifying Uchiha yet they're fascists for their ideals, mostly Danzo.
     
  10. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    Yes Danzo was definitely a "the ends justifies the means" type of guy.

    Tobirama's approach was like a harsh parent. onto his disobeying kids.
     
  11. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Indeed.
    Tobirama wasn't that dark compared to Danzo. He simply didn't do the right choice at moving away the Uchiha. Whether he had not decided that the Uchiha wouldn't have felt oppressed.

    On the other hand Danzo completely screwed it.
     
  12. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany, Peru, Brazil
    You have to disobey first for that false equivalence to uphold. Tobirama's segregation are is rooted on the "disobedience" of the Uchiha clan. Since up to that point the Uchiha clan didn't do anything wrong, but rather it's rooted in Tobirama's prejudge against the clan. Both are very different roots.
     
  13. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    This is what I said in my comment so I'm agreeing with you
     
  14. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    It is not 100% baseless prejudice though, the author agrees that there is some "Evil" when it comes to the Uchiha clan. So Tobirama did have some sort of leg to stand on.
     
  15. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    There were a peace agreement between Uchiha and Senju.
    Tobirama didn't trust them because of what happened in the war between Uchiha and Senju but he had no solid reasos to do all what he did. Even Hashirama told him to leave them alone. He oppressed the Uchiha during decades and they didn't do nothing. They finally planned to take down the Hokage and stuff.
     
  16. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    That's not the only reason. When talking to Sasuke Tobirama explained that Uchiha are more prone to being "evil" by nature of them being Uchiha.

    So yes he was wrong in what he did but he was acting out of caution for a legit reason, he simply chose the wrong way to handle things.

    The Uchiha aren't just some random clan who was oppressed by Tobirama, they were a clan of hate and evil as the manga states.
     
  17. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    You are contradicting yourself.
    You said Tobirama was wrong in what he did but yet you justify his desicions.

    It is true Uchiha were a cursed clan because when they lose someone they care about his feelings transform into hatred. This is a fact yet that does not mean Uchiha were danger for Konoha.

    Tobirama screwed it and he opressed them but it took more than 50 years for the Uchiha to finally plan a coup and this proves what Tobirama did was wrong. If they were really a danger to Konoha they would've attacked the village longer ago. Not all the Uchiha were cursed. If Tobirama didn't opress them then Uchiha wouldn't have planned a coup.
     
  18. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    I'm not contradicting myself, I'm simply stating what the manga is telling us:

    1. Uchiha are "evil".
    2. Tobirama acted on that evil.
    3. Tobirama was wrong despite that and should have done something else.

    The poster that quoted me made it seem like Tobirama was like a prejudiced racist ruler who had something against the Uchiha, but it turns out the Uchiha aren't just normal good people with different "skin colours", they were actually inherently evil.

    Tobirama was wrong but his actions weren't as grave as the poster was implying.
     
  19. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Yes, they were if you realise his actions is what triggered Uchiha to plan a coup.

    Btw, cursed≠evil
     
  20. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    My point is Tobirama didn't act on pure prejudice, as the manga clearly states Uchiha are hateful and cursed.

    Cursed with hate/evil, you get the point.
     
  21. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany, Peru, Brazil
    CoH was just a name Tobirama invented. Not that they were evil, since Tobirama’s same explanation was intense bipolar emotions. If you are critical of the term, then no they aren’t. And yeah it’s pure prejudge since even the same term only carries the negative connotation.
     
  22. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    The fact Uchiha took over +50 years says otherwise imo.
    Anyway agree to disagree. Better to leave it at that.
     
  23. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    The author is conveying the message by way of Tobirama's words. What was subjective is Tobirama's opinion of his actions (he believed he was totally justified), what was objective is his description of the Uchiha clan.

    It is not pure prejudice.
     
  24. Shark Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,418
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    994
    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Reputation:
    That doesn't take away what is said right there in the manga though.

    But yeah agree to disagree.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  25. Raniero 『 』

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes Received:
    662
    Trophy Points:
    843
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Reputation:
    Nah, was more more similar to National Socialism, minus the racist ideologies and forceful expansion characteristics. And as others have mentioned, there are private business in Konoha and there is someone above the Hokage (who just comes across as a figurehead), though even Hitler was chancellor in Nazi Germany before being voted into supreme power.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  26. Batzzaro29 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,760
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    313
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2017
    Reputation:
    Where this Uchiha's were oppressed thing came from? if i remember Sasuke was getting his dick sucked by village during pt 1.

    While clan heads were willing to kill Naruto when he stolled Sealing Scroll.
     
  27. Ultrafragor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,601
    Likes Received:
    678
    Trophy Points:
    593
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Reputation:
    The current generation only knows the Uchiha for the massacre.

    In the past the knowledge of their coup was very restricted and Tobirama was the one letting mistrust and rumors spread about them.

    The kyuubi attacked when Naruto and Sasuke were born, then the Uchiha clan was killed when Sasuke was 6. So that's a time frame of only a couple years where resentment grew between the Uchiha and the other villagers.
     
  28. Kuzehiko Infinite

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Trophy Points:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Fugaku said Uchiha were oppressed since they got moved apart. Sasuke and Obito also mentioned the oppression. It's clear Uchiha were oppressed. :oldshrug
     
  29. oMeGa1904 Mr. Incredible

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    283
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2014
    Reputation:
    Flag:
    Germany, Peru, Brazil
    Tobirama’s words are just the character’s words. Even with the supposition he’s infalible as a scientist and pointed out Uchiha can display strong bipolar emotions, i.e. love too much and hate too much. It’s prejudge what drives him in coining the term of curse of hatred or evil clan. Since as per original explanation, it’s they are just that, bipolar, even “curse of love and hatred” is a more accurately phenomenon descriptor than just curse of hatred or vilifying a whole clan. It’s ultimately only prejudge in his actions to come.
     
  30. Aduro Definitely not a villain.

    Messages:
    5,190
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    363
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Reputation:
    There are some major gaps between fascism and Konoha. For one thing, although the faces are on the mountain, there isn't exactly a cult of personality around the Hokage. When Kakashi was explaining the 5 Kage to Team 7, they were sceptical, thinking "that old geezer is that special?". Fascist dictators like Jong-un, Stalin and Hitler came up with tons of exaggerated stories and outright lies to shove their personal 'greatness' down people's throats. So hearing that the Hokage was a world-class shinobi wouldn't be a shock to them. Plus Tsunade tolerated the elders questioning her all the time when she could probably have found an excuse to execute them. The Hokage wasn't considered infallible.

    There are a lot of atrocities but they were generally done without the public's knowledge. Whereas in fascist organisations that kind of thing is done publicly, and the reasons for the actions are open lies. This implies that there is at least the possibility that if the Hokage did something dishonourably, the opinions of others would count against them. A key element of fascism is the ability to tell people blatant lies and have the people openly accept them as the truth. That's what the whole Orwellian "two and two are five" thing is about. Fascist governments have the power to turn a lie into the truth. Konoha had to commit the Uchiha Massacre quietly without anyone knowing. Konoha's politics is fucked up by modern standards. But its not totalitarian exactly.

    On the issue of jonin choosing the leader. Its true that there is an elite group who get to choose the leader of the village is. But the group is at least selected on genuine merit, rather than class or caste. And there's not much of a barrier to entry since anyone who has the skills can become a jonin. It reflects democracies from the pre-industrial era more than an early modern one. The problem is that the village is both a city and a military base. There isn't a clear gap between a military which often more reasonably relies on a hierarchical structure, making certain decisions secretly and legitimate violence, and civilian politics. That's the real problem.


    One arrogant, powerful little boy who's family got murdered is a lot more pitiful than an entire arrogant, powerful clan who runs the police force. Although frankly the Uchiha were in charge of the police as a result of discrimination is a little hard to swallow. Given the context of real-life clashes between discriminated-against-groups and the police in literally every country with a police force. Even if it did probably stop the Uchiha allying with other clans.
     
Loading...