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'We have a deal,' say Greece and Macedonia over name dispute

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by mr_shadow, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Greece and Macedonia have reached an historic accord to resolve a dispute over the former Yugoslav republic's name that has troubled relations between the two neighbors for decades.

    Under the deal, Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said his country would officially be called the "Republic of Northern Macedonia". It is currently known formally at the United Nations under the interim name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

    Zaev said the deal would open the way for the tiny Balkan nation's eventual membership of the European Union and NATO, currently blocked by Greece's objections to its use of the name Macedonia. Athens say that name implies territorial claims on a northern Greek province of the same name.

    "There is no way back," Zaev told a news conference after speaking with his Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras by telephone. A meeting of the two soon may seal the deal, he said.

    "Our bid in the compromise is a defined and precise name, the name that is honorable and geographically precise - Republic of Northern Macedonia."

    "By solving the name question, we are becoming a member of NATO," Zaev added.

    The accord still requires ratification by the two national parliaments and a referendum in Macedonia. Skopje also needs to revise its constitution, Tsipras said, before Greece ratifies the deal.

    The name dispute has soured relations between the two neighbors at least since 1991, when Macedonia broke away from former Yugoslavia, declaring its independence under the name Republic of Macedonia.

    "HISTORIC GRAVITY"

    Many Greeks felt their northern neighbor was trying to hijack Greece's ancient cultural heritage. Macedonia is the birthplace of Alexander the Great.

    "Maybe what has the most historic gravity and value for Greece (is that) according to this accord... our northern neighbors don't have, and cannot assert, any link to the ancient Greek culture of Macedonia," Tsipras said in a televised address on Tuesday evening.

    But Greeks seem cool to any deal involving the continued use of the name "Macedonia" by their northern neighbor. Most opposition parties have criticized Tsipras's tactics, and even his coalition partner, the right-leaning Independent Greeks, have said they will not back an accord that allows the continued use of "Macedonia".

    But the leftist leader is still likely to win support from center-left parties. "We want
    to be part of a solution," said an official at the opposition Socialist Party.

    Athens and Skopje have been racing to agree the outline of a settlement before an EU summit in late June. A NATO summit is scheduled for mid-July.

    Veteran United Nations diplomat Matthew Nimetz, who has been a mediator in the name dispute since 1994, hailed the "leadership, vision and determination" of the foreign ministers of Greece and Macedonia, who have negotiated for months.

    "I am encouraged by the dedication of both governments to deliver mutual benefits for all their citizens through the establishment of a strategic partnership as a basis for intensified cooperation across all sectors," he said in a statement.

     
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  2. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    A step closer to the unification of Europe. :villa

    This is the location of Northern Macedonia relative to the EU:




    Admitting Northern Macedonia will put more connective tissue between member states Greece and Bulgaria, as well as increase pressure (?) on Serbia and Albania to comply with EU membership conditions (e.g. respect for ethnic minorities) so that they may join as well.
     
  3. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Just change it back once you get membership, This is a non-issue anyway. Though it looks weird to have a North Macedonia and no country called South Macedonia. Same with Sudan and South Sudan.
     
  4. Mr. Black Leg The Ordeal of Love

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    We have a state here in Brazil called "Mato Grosso do Sul" (Thick Bush of the South) and have Mato Grosso(Thick Bush) with no "North" in it.
     
  5. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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  6. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    Deal is solid, one that should have been done 10+ years ago when Greece started to suggest these names. Now need to hope people on both sides to accept it.

    Severna Makedonija also seems to roll of the tongue nicely too in the Bulgo-Macedonian language (They're 99% the same. Tito meddling being shown). Plus it also puts to rest any claim the more extreme elements the Northern Macedonians tried to have on Greek Macedonian history. Which to their credit they already started on by re-renaming airports and roads with names like Alexander the Great and Phillip.

    Plus it's also another country that locks out Putin.
     
  7. Undertaker elect the dead

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    It's a good news in the current chaotic international climate.
     
  8. stream Do something, Naruto!

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    There's also a West Virginia state in the US, but the other one is just Virginia.

    Anyway, hurray for common sense solutions.
     
  9. DarkTorrent Well-Known Member

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    Fyrom president rejected the agreement
     
  10. Island In the Sun

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    How did it take 25 years to come up with this name??
     
  11. wibisana still newbie

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  12. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    Good thing he can be circumvented around in any case. Both foreign ministers are going to sign it this weekend. If the parliament of Severna Makedonija pass it twice he has no say in the matter. He's just trying to use it because he's having a temper tantrum over his party being removed from power last year because citizens of the country got fed up with extreme nationalism

    You know considering how West Virginia came about I am surprised they were not given the actual name Virginia for the state and Virginia were told "To be given full rights back in the union you're going to have to pick a new name. One of which will be considered for your apology for betrayal and promise you'll never resort to treason again"

    Balkans man, never underestimate how it can all go crazy in that part of Europe. Severna Makedonija had people legit wanting to take Greek History as their own. Greece was worried about claims on their territory (Which while seems crazy, Tito created the Yugoslav Macedonian republic for that very reason (As well as to debulgarianize the people there)), plus Macedonian style foods/clothing/anything exports is a great source of income for Greece. Accepting the term Republic of Macedonia basically would be that they'd lose out on that.
     
  13. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Macedonia's president said on Wednesday he would not sign a landmark deal reached with Greece on changing his country's name, dashing hopes of a swift end to a diplomatic dispute that has blocked Skopje's bid to join the European Union and NATO.

    In Greece too, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras faced a barrage of criticism and the prospect of a no-confidence vote against his government after he and Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev announced the accord late on Tuesday.

    Under the deal, Macedonia would become formally known as 'the Republic of Severna (Northern) Macedonia'. It is currently known officially at the United Nations as the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'.

    Athens has long objected to its northern neighbor's use of the name 'Macedonia', saying it implies territorial claims on a northern Greek province of that name and also amounts to appropriation of Greece's ancient cultural heritage.

    "My position is final and I will not yield to any pressure, blackmail or threats. I will not support or sign such a damaging agreement," Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov told a news conference in Skopje.

    Ivanov, who is backed by the nationalist opposition VMRO-DPMNE, can veto the deal. Macedonia's center-left government also needs a two-thirds majority to win parliamentary approval and this would require the backing of VMRO-DPMNE, which is strongly opposed to the accord.

    The president also said Macedonia's possible future membership of the EU and NATO was not sufficient excuse to sign such a "bad agreement".

    The accord must be approved by Macedonians in a referendum as well as by the parliaments of both countries.

    "We will oppose this deal of capitulation with all democratic and legal means," VMRO-DPMNE head Hristijan Mickoski told a news conference, branding the agreement "an absolute defeat for Macedonian diplomacy".

    "DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC"

    In Athens, where Tsipras is also trying to negotiate a definitive exit from financial bailouts which have traumatized Greece, resistance to the Macedonia deal was growing.

    A source in Greece's main opposition party, New Democracy, said it planned to submit a motion of no-confidence in the Tsipras government over the deal.

    New Democracy will submit the motion after the conclusion of a debate on bailout reforms scheduled to wrap up late on Thursday, the source told Reuters.

    If the motion is submitted, it would be the first since Tsipras, a leftist, won elections in September 2015, testing the unity of his governing left-right coalition.

    New Democracy leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis called the Macedonia deal "deeply problematic" because he said most Greeks were against it and Tsipras lacked the authority to sign it.

    "We are in a situation that is unprecedented in Greece's constitutional history. A prime minister without a clear parliamentary mandate willing to commit the country to a reality which will not be possible to change," Mitsotakis said.

    In a front-page editorial, conservative daily Eleftheros Typos called the agreement "the surrender of the Macedonian identity and language", while the center-right Kathimerini newspaper referred to "a deal with gaps and question marks".

    For some Greeks the compromise deal over Macedonia was the final straw after nine years of painful austerity under three international bailouts.

    "We have lost, we retreated," said 40-year old Stamatia Valtadorou, a private sector employee. "It's one thing to sell off a part of yourself for a bailout and a different thing to sell off your land, it hurts deeply."

     
  14. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Greece and Macedonia will sign an accord on Sunday to change the name of the former Yugoslav republic, the Greek government's press ministry said on Friday as the governments of both countries faced mounting opposition at home over the deal.

    The accord would be signed in the Prespes region, a lake district which borders Greece, Macedonia and Albania by the two countries' foreign ministers, the ministry said in a statement to media.

    It gave no more precise location or time for the signing.

    Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his counterpart Zoran Zaev, who will also be in attendance, have agreed the country will officially be called the "Republic of Northern Macedonia". It is currently known formally at the United Nations under the interim name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

    The deal has triggered fierce opposition in both countries. The Macedonian president has vowed to block the accord, and in Greece, opposition has mounted a no-confidence vote against Tsipras in parliament.

    Athens has long objected to its northern neighbour's use of the name 'Macedonia', saying it implies territorial claims on a northern Greek province of that name and amounts to appropriation of Greece's ancient cultural heritage.

    The accord requires ratification by national parliaments and must pass a referendum in Macedonia.

     
  15. Eternal Dreamer The Bored Lolmaster

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    Yeah, no one seems to like that deal other than Zaev and Tsipras.
     
  16. Hozukimaru &#32

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    The deal is really good.

    The Greek opposition being against the deal might be positive, to a certain degree. It makes the deal seem more balanced, to the eyes of North Macedonians.

    The main issue after all is whether the North Macedonian government will be able to gather enough support for the deal.


    By the way, one far-right Greek Golden Dawn parliament member is being charged for openly encouraging the armed forces to revolt and arrest/kill the government. He said that inside the parliament, while talking about how awful that deal is for Greece! There was a highway car chase by the police yesterday but he got away and almost hit some police officers with his car. They are still looking for him.
     
  17. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    Do these guys not remember the shit that happened under the Junta. Or are these old fucks those that benefitted from them.
     
  18. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras survived a no-confidence motion in parliament on Saturday, setting the stage for the signing of a historic accord with neighboring Macedonia to settle a long dispute over the latter's name.

    The motion brought by the opposition New Democracy party was rejected by 153 MPs, with 127 in favor. Political opponents had accused Tsipras of making too many concessions over the deal, due to be signed on Sunday.

    Thousands of Greeks protested outside parliament against the accord with Macedonia, calling for Tsipras to resign. Police used stun grenades and tear gas to prevent them from entering the building.

    "This is a deal I believe that every Greek prime minister would want," Tsipras told the chamber earlier.

    Had he lost, the leftist elected in 2015 would have had to relinquish his mandate to the country's president, signaling early elections. He is already trailing center-right New Democracy in opinion polls.

    Greece had been in dispute with Macedonia since 1991 over the former Yugoslav republic's name, arguing it could imply territorial claims over the Greek province of Macedonia and an appropriation of ancient Greek culture and civilization.

    The subject is a deeply emotional one for many Greeks. On Saturday, protesters outside the parliament building shouted "traitor, traitor!" as lawmakers debated inside.

    "I'm just furious," said Theologos Ambotis, 69, a monk. "Conceding on the name is conceding on territory. Macedonia and Alexander the Great is Greek history and culture, and they are just giving it away to Skopje."

    Under the terms of the accord, the country will be known as "Republic of North Macedonia" and Greece will lift its objections to the renamed nation joining the European Union and the NATO military alliance.

    ACCORD TO BE SIGNED

    Greek foreign minister Nikos Kotzias and his Macedonian counterpart Nikola Dimitrov will sign the pact in the border lake region of Prespes on Sunday morning. Tsipras and Macedonian premier Zoran Zaev will also be present.

    It will require ratification by both national parliaments and approval in a Macedonian referendum, which is not assured.

    The president of Macedonia has said he will not endorse the pact, while in Greece, Tsipras's right-wing coalition partners have said their lawmakers will reject it when it is brought for ratification. That is expected to occur by the end of the year.

    Protests were scheduled on both sides of the border on Sunday.

    One lawmaker with the right-wing Independent Greeks, Tsipras's coalition partner, sided with New Democracy on the motion, bringing applause from opposition politicians. He was promptly expelled by the party's leader.

    The expulsion brings Tsipras's majority in parliament to 153 MPs out of a total in the chamber of 300.

    New Democracy leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis called the accord an affront, and the Tsipras government a 'nightmare'.

    "This government should go before it does more damage, this time national damage," he said.

     
  19. Eternal Dreamer The Bored Lolmaster

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    Yeah, people are not very happy about this deal. Don't think I have seen anyone saying anything positive about it.
     
  20. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    @Nemesis

    Does "severna" mean "north" or "northern"?

    "North" is an absolute term which implies the existence of some entity called "South Macedonia" (in Greece), whereas "Northern" is relative and only suggests that the republic is located in the northern portion of a larger area called Macedonia.

    IMO the former sounds like they might seek reunification with "South Macedonia", while the latter seems more accepting that the Republic is located in the region Macedonia but does not claim the entirety of it.
     
  21. Overwatch [Yogurt intensifies]

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    “Sever”=north

    “Severna”=northern (feminine)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  22. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Greece and Macedonia defied protests and set aside decades of dispute on Sunday as they agreed on a new name for the Balkan state, potentially paving the way for Skopje's admission to the EU and NATO.

    The foreign ministers of Greece and Macedonia signed an accord to rename the former Yugoslav republic the "Republic of North Macedonia," despite a storm of protest over a deal seen as a national sellout by some on both sides.

    In the idyllic setting of Prespes, a lake region which borders Greece, Macedonia and Albania, officials from the two countries embraced, shook hands and penned a deal in the presence of European and United Nations officials.

    The agreement still requires the approval of both parliaments and a referendum in Macedonia. That approval is far from assured, as it faces stiff opposition from the Greek public, and Macedonia's president has vowed to block the deal.

    "We have a historic responsibility that this deal is not held in abeyance, and I am confident that we will manage it," Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said as he and his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev received a standing ovation from guests at the lakeside ceremony.

    Tsipras survived a no-confidence vote mounted by Greece's opposition in parliament on Saturday, but the depth of public emotion against the deal is strong.

    Up to 70 percent of Greeks object to the compromise, an opinion poll by the Proto Thema newspaper showed on Saturday. In Psarades, the tiny lakeside community where the deal was signed, the village church bell tolled in mourning, draped in a Greek flag.

    Under the deal, Greece will lift its objections to the renamed nation joining the EU and NATO.

    "Our two countries have to turn from the past and look to the future," Zaev said. "We were bold enough to take a step forward."

    Greece has been in dispute with Macedonia since 1991 over the former Yugoslav republic's name, arguing it could imply territorial claims over the Greek province of Macedonia and an appropriation of ancient Greek culture and civilization.

    The subject is an emotional one for many Greeks. On Saturday, thousands of protesters outside the parliament building shouted "Traitor, traitor!" as lawmakers debated inside.

    Veteran UN mediator Matthew Nimetz, who has been overseeing talks for a quarter century, described the agreement as an honorable deal. It was, he said, an example of "how neighbors can solve a problem if they really work at it".

    "Today is my birthday," said Nimetz, who turned 79 on Sunday. "I told my family this year I don’t need any gifts because two prime ministers are going to give me a big gift."

     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  23. Eternal Dreamer The Bored Lolmaster

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    Honestly, it is most likely going to be approved by the Greek parliament. The goverment have the majority needed and doubt the other party that is part of it, is going to vote otherwise. As for FYROM, pretty sure it is going to be approved by theirs too. Doubt Ivanov's opposition will do much. Not so sure about the referendum there though.
     
  24. wibisana still newbie

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    You wanna friend and prosper you have to cooperate and "sell out" (i forget proper term if we conform other need but not too much)

    If history teach us something Venice and Ottoman were rich together despite one being muslim and one being Christian.
     
  25. Alwaysmind Lunesdi al vespre.

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    Couldn’t they have just named it Former Part of Alexander the Grests Empire?
     
  26. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Now it's gonna be "The Former Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Northern Macedonia". :maybe
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  27. Mider T VM Rapist

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    This is what happens when you get up in arms about trivial things.
     
  28. Nemesis The Sith Lord

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    Multi billion dollars + ownership of parts of a country are not trivial matters.
     
  29. Mider T VM Rapist

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    A minor change of the name of a country is trivial.
     
  30. Eternal Dreamer The Bored Lolmaster

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    The things that come with it are not though.
     
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