1. The first My Hero Academia Banner Contest is here! We are pleased to invite you to participate.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hello Guest,

    Voting for the first Konoha Country Club Poetry Competition is live!

    Please check out the Entries here.

    Place your votes in the 1st Choice Vote thread here and the 2nd Choice Vote thread here.

    -- NarutoForums Staff

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Stop Scrolling!
    Attention - When discussing new chapters of an anime or manga, please use a source from the official list of approved sources. If you would like to contribute to the list, please do so in the suggestions section.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. If you write blogs about the current anime season (for linking) or like to add descriptions / impressions on certain series and like to add them to our wiki, then send us a ticket.
    Dismiss Notice

  6. Give NF the love she deserves! Join the NF-chan drawing contest and draw NF as NF-chan now!
    Earn some prizes... and maybe hugs and kisses from the forum herself?!
    CLICK HERE
    Dismiss Notice
  7. [​IMG]

    House of Uzumaki has a new banner contest! Please, check here for details and place your vote.

    Dismiss Notice

Were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

Discussion in 'Perspectives' started by A Optimistic, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. A Optimistic Rule of Two

    Messages:
    65,320
    Likes Received:
    4,892
    Trophy Points:
    4,607
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006






    State whether you think it's justified or not.

    And if you don't think it's justified, state what you would have done differently if you were in charge. Don't just say it's not justified without providing an alternate solution, that's a cop out.

    :diout
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    Tags:
  2. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

    Messages:
    34,426
    Likes Received:
    1,557
    Trophy Points:
    2,607
    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Flag:
    Sweden






    There have been multiple threads on this topic over the years.

    (2006)

    (2009)

    (2010)A

    (2010)B
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. A Optimistic Rule of Two

    Messages:
    65,320
    Likes Received:
    4,892
    Trophy Points:
    4,607
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006






    I appreciate the links, I'll check them all out.

    Still it's been nine years since the last one so I'm curious what today's era of Cafe posters think. Reading comments from users you've never heard of before isn't as exciting as reading comments from current Cafe all-stars such as Owl and others.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 3
    • List
  4. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

    Messages:
    34,426
    Likes Received:
    1,557
    Trophy Points:
    2,607
    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Flag:
    Sweden






    Fair enough, but please do skim through the threads I linked and think about if there's really anything further to say that hasn't already been said.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  5. Island In the Sun Moderator

    Messages:
    9,071
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    1,357
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Flag:
    United States






    The alternative was a plan called Operation Downfall, an American invasion of mainland Japan. The high-end estimates for total casualties (both soldiers and civilians) is 1-2 million.

    It was commonly estimated that 200,000 to 500,000 of those would be American soldiers. In fact, so many Purple Hearts were made in anticipation of the invasion that we're still handing them out.

    If we go strictly by body count, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the "right" options.
     
  6. Alwaysmind 总是心神

    Messages:
    22,298
    Likes Received:
    543
    Trophy Points:
    1,508
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Flag:
    Switzerland, Canada, China
    Reputation:
    Debatable, with Russia moving troops East to prepare an invasion of north Japan, the odds of Japan having the necessary material to fight a two pronged invasion was dim.

    But I already posted some source material in the other thread. So I'll just leave it at that.
     
  7. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

    Messages:
    34,426
    Likes Received:
    1,557
    Trophy Points:
    2,607
    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Flag:
    Sweden






    Just gonna chime in that the "Japan would never have surrendered because they're crazy jihadists who fight to the last man" is kind of a racist-reductionist narrative.

    Obviously some Japanese soldiers would have been ok with their own wives and kids getting martyred for the Emperor, but would all have been ok with it?

    The fact that the military command actually flinched after the nukes by itself proves that the Japanese weren't as suicidal as portrayed, so probably they would have eventually flinched from a conventional invasion as well, even if it had taken longer.

    We shouldn't talk about Fascists, ISIS, or North Koreans like they're space aliens who don't operate by the same psychological parameters as the rest of us.
     
  8. Island In the Sun Moderator

    Messages:
    9,071
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    1,357
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Flag:
    United States






    AFAIK, most estimates did not assume this.

    While they did assume civilian participation, they did not expect Okinawa-style carnage, albeit Okinawa was still fresh in everybody's minds as they were planning Operation Downfall.

    My understanding of the American brass is that they did not anticipate Japan to collapse in the same way that Italy did. They figured they'd be fighting all the way through Japan, likely the same way that they had to fight all the way through Germany.

    More so, they anticipated Japan knowing what their strategy would be: first invading Kyūshū from Okinawa and then landing in Kantō with air support from captured Kyūshū airfields. They ended up being correct about this because Japan was preparing accordingly.

    This contrasted with how well Operation Overlord went. Germany incorrectly guessed (and was fed false information) that the allies would land in Calais. The Allies were therefore able to bypass a lot of German coastal fortifications, something that would be impossible during Operation Downfall.

    So, while I'm sure the racial caricature of Japan never surrendering played into it, I don't think most of the level-headed contemporary estimates were too influenced by it. They had plenty of reason to believe Operation Downfall would be a bloodbath.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  9. Blue Well-Known Member Supporting Staff Retired Staff

    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    1,183
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004






    Downfall would absolutely have been a bloodbath. The Japanese citizenry and rank and file military were told the Americans were bloodthirsty cannibals who would kill them all to the last man, woman, and child, and while some people might have accepted this fate and been pleasantly surprised, the resistance would have been catastrophic.

    Note that 99% of these people had never met a foreigner before and had no idea what to expect. The Italians and Germans more or less knew what was coming. (and Germany still fought to the end).
     
  10. Drake WORK MAKES YOU FREE

    Messages:
    3,910
    Likes Received:
    236
    Trophy Points:
    1,007
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Reputation:
    Yes, the bombings were justified. I posted a lot of links and arguments backing this up in a Cafe thread not too long ago. Invading Japan would have ultimately resulted in a lot more deaths for both sides.
     
  11. Island In the Sun Moderator

    Messages:
    9,071
    Likes Received:
    766
    Trophy Points:
    1,357
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Flag:
    United States






    My inner conspiracy theorist thinks @A Optimistic made this thread with the intention of getting @mr_shadow and me into a debate.

    :conspiracy
     
  12. wibisana still newbie

    Messages:
    16,647
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    1,482
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Flag:
    Poland
    Reputation:
    They did a lot more worse.
    Firestorm
    Napalm
    Agent Orange
    Cluster bomb in SEA (Cambodia, Laos, etc)
     
  13. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

    Messages:
    34,426
    Likes Received:
    1,557
    Trophy Points:
    2,607
    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Flag:
    Sweden






    Nukes are spectacular-looking, but they're not necessarily the most lethal or horrific war crimes.

    As I brought up the fire bombings of Tokyo killed more people than either of the nukes, and burning to death in a conventional fire is probably more agonizing than being "vaporized" by a nuke - which I assume to be instantaneous if you're within the blast zone.
     
  14. wibisana still newbie

    Messages:
    16,647
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    1,482
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Flag:
    Poland
    Reputation:
    Yes. Obviously

    Look at SEA operation, in which civillian died or losing limbs long after the "war" end because the usage of cluster bomb which isnt detonated immediately.

    Or Agent Orange which kill also US soldier. Isnt it worse?
     
  15. Blue Well-Known Member Supporting Staff Retired Staff

    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    1,183
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004










    tl; dr: Agent Orange is harmless or almost harmless to humans.
     
  16. wibisana still newbie

    Messages:
    16,647
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    1,482
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Flag:
    Poland
    Reputation:


    It increase hormon level unaturally and without consent. Harmless?
     
  17. Blue Well-Known Member Supporting Staff Retired Staff

    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    1,183
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004






    Probably. Also correlation does not equal causation.

    Also changing hormone levels in infants is a long way away from deadly poison that killed US soldiers and Vietnamese and everything it touched.
     
  18. wibisana still newbie

    Messages:
    16,647
    Likes Received:
    518
    Trophy Points:
    1,482
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Flag:
    Poland
    Reputation:
    The u agree that it is poison than kill human without differentiate civillian or soldier or own US soldier.

    And still affecting people today. I dont have much to add tbh. Worse than Nuke
     
Loading...