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What if George Lucas held onto Star Wars?

Discussion in 'Konoha Theatre' started by MartialHorror, May 29, 2018.

  1. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    I remember hearing that George Lucas planned on directing Episode 7 himself and then selling the franchise, which for me...almost seems like sabotage. Some have defended the prequels by saying that 'Lucas was rusty as he hadn't directed in awhile', but he was still a little active as a producer during that time. The only projects I can think of him being involved with since the prequels were "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" and "Red Tails", neither of which are well liked.

    I've heard conflicting reports of what his Episode 7 would've been like. Some say that the main characters would've been younger teenagers, but some of the (alleged) treatments seem too dark for that demographic. But Im sure if Lucas did it, everything would be green screened, the tone would be all over the place, the dialogue would be dense with exposition, mixed in with the occasional horrendous line ("That's so Wizard, Anny!") and the acting would be phoned in. I think the reception would've been worse than any of the other Star Wars films, including both "TLJ" and the prequels. "The Last Jedi" seemed to piss off fans more than casuals and the prequels were armed with nostalgia. I remember seeing "The Phantom Menace" in theaters and at the time, it's like everyone willed themselves to like it. Now everyone seems to hate it. This is because the generation who saw "TPM" upon release grew up with the original trilogy. We were kids as they were being released or had just recently been released, but I don't think younger generations have the same connection that we did. This is why "The Phantom Menace" is more hated now than it was back then.

    People talk about how Kennedy 'pisses on the fanbase', but Lucas completely misunderstood his own. He intended to make the prequels for kids, not realizing that the bulk of his audience would be the adults who grew up on Star Wars.

    If Lucas did Episode 7 before selling it, I think it would've been far worse than anything Star Wars has done recently, as it would be like poisoning the well before selling it. But if he had not sold it at all, there would be some good alternatives. The biggest advantage would be that Lucas probably would not over-saturate his own market. We would probably get one trilogy, with each release being spaced out over the course of a few years. There would probably be a few spin-offs, but they would likely be smaller affairs. Even if the movies aren't good, I doubt audiences would become numb to the brand, as they clearly are now. I also think the internet would be a much more pleasant place, as I doubt I would hear the phrase "Social Justice Warrior" being incorrectly thrown around. Furthermore, there is always a chance Lucas would have learned from his mistakes and produced the rest of the trilogy, letting more talented or experienced directors and writers carry the franchise using Lucas's better ideas. I do think Lucas is a great producer when working with someone who won't bow to him and am actually a little saddened that he has seemingly lost all interest in filmmaking.

    Anyway, that's my wall of text for the day. So what do you think things would be like if Lucas held onto Star Wars. Better? Worse? Or maybe there would simply be no new Star Wars flicks, as Lucas seems to be enjoying retirement too much.
     
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  2. The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour Well-Known Member

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    Anyway, that's my wall of text for the day. So what do you think things would be like if Lucas held onto Star Wars. Better? Worse? Or maybe there would simply be no new Star Wars flicks, as Lucas seems to be enjoying retirement too much.


    I have no idea, he is just as foolish in his own way as Kathleen K.
     
  3. Fang Titan

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    Then it would've been fine. Lucas doesn't go out of his way to call fans of the franchise who object Kathleen Kennedy's nonsense as "toxic" or poison his relations while making movies the fans want.
     
  4. Ennoea Red Light

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    Lucas just needed reigning back. What he needed was a partner to tell him what works and what doesn't. He forgot that Star Wars was a collaborative product and instead tried to make decisions for everything. He had great ideas but his execution is lacking.
     
  5. Ghost_of_Gashir Mider T's mom's a hoe

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    Lucas had too many ideas, but he made Star Wars a world filled with wonder and endless possibilities. Something the sequel trilogy suffers from is a complete lack of new ideas.
     
  6. Sennin of Hardwork Tales to Astonish Moderator

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    More of the same would've happened one way or other in the end. There would still be nitpicking complains. The very first thing that fandom did when The Force Awakens' teaser was released in 2014 was to criticize the purpose and usage of Kylo Ren's cross-guard lightsaber and how it wasn't the proper way to hold a lightsaber. Star Wars fans are masters of swordmanship and fencing.

    Nothing will ever be enough for this fandom, it would still be a vicious cycle. So just approach it with the most YOLO and chilled attitude and rescue what you want and enjoyed the most from the films.
     
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  7. Shiba D. Inu #admiralgang

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    who knows, could have been more phantom menaces
     
  8. Ben Grimm Kicking the Hulk's Ass

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    Depends if others were willing to help George and if he kept some advisors with him. People who would be willing to tell him no.
     
  9. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    I think it would've been cool if Steven Spielberg and George Lucas united for a Star Wars movie...assuming Spielberg actually cares about the project...
     
  10. Fang Titan

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    Doubtful to this degree we're seeing with Disney. And this is any fandom to be fair, I mean did you even see the backlash with the reboot F4 movie and having a black actor play Johnny Storm? Star Wars isn't some exception to the rule in this regards and Star Wars fans being more vocal is the fact that its the single largest franchise in pop culture history in the West. At least Lucas picked up on issues he had the first two Prequel films which is generally why RotS is considered so much more positively well received; continually cutting down Jar-Jar's screentime, reducing the romance sub-plot with Anakin and Padme eating up over a half hour in AoTC to less than 15 minutes of that in RotS, returning back to a swashbuckling adventure with heavier if bleaker and darker story overtones, more lightsaber duels, kinetic fights, etc...

    I mean the opening scene with the Battle of Coruscant in RotS right after the text scrawl and the heavy war drums beating is fucking iconic. So yes there would be nitpicking complaints but there wouldn't be to the level we've gotten with the executive of Disney's Lucas Arts doubling-down on any criticism and trying to deflect nonsensically or avoid responsibility by claiming its a "small" aspect of the total fandom (blatant lie) and claiming misogyny.

    But either way it says something when a big aspect of why the latest movie is tanking is due to fan backlash intentionally boycotting it. No one did this with the Prequels, despite their love it or hate it status with George Lucas, its pretty telling what the fans are thinking.
     
  11. Sennin of Hardwork Tales to Astonish Moderator

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    I never touched on the backlash of casting a minority in a lead role, F4's regarding that was a clear trick in drawing in the audience with diversity. I was talking about really redundant things like I mentioned in that. It was the first time we ever got new Star Wars footage in 9 years back then and that was what the focus of attention was on, tearing down apart the newest prop in the franchise. How much can we say that RotS was that well recieved? It still featured that sub-plot of Anaking finally succumbing to the dark side not because he had legit points against the Jedi council that he disagreed with & thoughts that things should be different but because he was willing to do what was neccessary to keep Padme alive. Anaking became Darth Vader because of a love story, not because he no longer could find it in himself to work with the Jedi. I can just not believe it was within the fandom's expectation to see the rise of the franchise's most memorable character and villain due to his feelings.

    Wouldn't call RotS "swashbuckling" though, it was the swan song of the Jedi IMO.

    I think the only scene we can call iconic is when he finally dons the Darth Vader suit. No arguments in that. RotS still was found with many faults from the way in which the Jedi masters that came with Mace Windu, another Jedi master, just stood there while Palpatine gave his moonsault attack and made quick job of all of them except Windu and speaking about fights wasn't just RotS but the entire prequel films criticized because their fights had too much choreography? Lord knows that I've seen all type of comments about awful (Also read posts in favour about it like how it showed they knew each other too well) And now we have the opposite with TLJ's throne room of how it has bad choreography. So what gives in the end?

    I just think in a few years when either Rian Johnson's new trilogy or GoT's David Benioff and D.B. Weiss projects come out we will be back in square one. We'll likely look back at the Sequel trilogy and repeat the exact same thing we are doing now with propping up the prequels against the newest ones.
     
  12. Fang Titan

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    It was a simple comparison, no need to over-analyze it.

    Kylo's lightsaber design is admittingly pretty corny and people going after that, the reveal teaser with Finn popping up as Bogeya sweats all over the place and the silly modernist style new age redesigned Stormtroopers getting critized were going to happen with how silly they were.

    And related but I remember being a kid when the first trailer came out for TPM on the internet in the very late 1998. People saw the hover-tanks rolling over the hills on Naboo, Maul's little quick cameo, and went nuts. The contrast is stunning.

    It has the highest actual professional and critic reviews of any Star Wars films in relation to numbers when it came out before shit like RT, IMDB, anything else existed. Roger Ebert called it an appropriate finale to the entire saga. I can safely say, even if based in anecdotal evidence, that it was pretty well received.

    What's the issue here? This ties-in perfectly with Yoda and Obi-Wan trying to tell Luke to be an emotionless warrior-monk who has no feelings and Luke rejecting that in RoTJ when he wants to save Vader and redeem Anakin back to the light side. A big theme is that the failing of the Jedi was their refusal to accept emotions and feelings and viewed them as weaknesses leading to the dark side but the big irony is that the Jedi crippled themselves in refusing them as much as the Sith did by embracing them, both are extremes that Luke proved can be avoided. Anakin made the wrong choices for the right reasons, just like the subtle implication in RotS that Palpatine was causing the false visions of the future in Anakin's mind and dreams. The refusal of the Jedi High Council to open up to Anakin and constant secrecy toward him and Palpatine only fueled his eventual fall.

    The fandom was upset with the portrayal of Anakin as a slave in Episode 1 being a glorified toddler in the first Prequel movie more than anything else; teenager Anakin being whiny fits with teenage Luke being the same in early ANH. But Anakin falling because of his attachment and love for Padme was never something I've been told is an issue. Also that aside, Luke is still the most popular and memorable character in Star Wars, he edges out even Vader.

    Not sure what you mean here. Swashbuckling in my previous post refers to the classic return to how the action and plot tied in together with Anakin and Obi-Wan's action scenes in the first act of Episode III. They go from a serene and perfectly coordinated almost zen like flight in the stars to rolling over the hull of a Star Destroyer into a intense furball of space battle between starfighters and capital ships duking it out, you have a highly dynamic starfighter battle with squadrons of Clone pilots joining the duo, the whole buzzer droids ripping into Obi-Wan's ship, display of Anakin and Obi-Wan's teamwork, the crash landing and invading Grievous' flagship, the little adventure through the hangar to confront and duel Dooku, then the elevator antics which I liked personally, followed by the fight and crash of the ship onto the planet.

    That's pretty much textbook swashbuckling.

    I disagree. The twin suns rising with Obi-Wan overlooking them and Owen and Beru foster infant Luke is there. Anakin's landing the Invisible Hand onto Coruscant, the entire duel on Mustafar between Anakin and Obi-Wan as the planet quite literally goes to hell with the facility falling into the lava, there's plenty of stuff established in RotS that have made their hallmark in the franchise.

    Faults? No. Flaws? Certainly, but to a far lesser degree than the two movies that came before it and I've seen reasonably people who put it above RotJ in its execution and general excellence as well. My biggest problem though was how bad the "Padme died of a broken heart" thing that Lucas Arts had to soft retcon that by claiming in comics and novels that the droids on Pol Massa weren't designed to perform surgery or birth delivery on humans and fucked it up. That I can agree is a glaring one.

    What would your reaction be when a middle aged 60+ year old man suddenly gives a psychic scream that psychically buffets your Force senses and perceptions, and then does a bunch of flips while telling you he is the Senate? :maybe

    No. There is no such thing as "too much" choreography. The sword master who instructed Hayden, Ewan, Ian, Samuel L. Jackson, Ray Park, and Liam stated for example Hayden was a natural genius and prodigy at dueling.

    That little sequence is the only thing people can nitpick out of Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel. It legitimately occurs for maybe 1-2 seconds and nothing else like that is repeated in the rest of their fight. Sure it was silly but it was like you said, supposed to convey how Anakin and Obi-Wan had trained and sparred with each other over their entire lives for so long and so often that they were at an impasse and couldn't advance on each other. The issue with the fight in TLJ is the fact that you can blatantly see the Praetorian Guards in the background legitimately attacking empty space or moving while its over-saturated with that shtick in the background and stuff is getting hammy in the foreground.

    The captain of the guards that fights Rey, for some magical reason that makes zero sense, drops and releases his choke-hold on Rey despite pinning her throat, despite her just switching hands with her lightsaber. That's pretty stupid for example. Why did this happen? Who okay'd this and said its a good idea?

    I don't share your optimism here. The issue is conflated in two ways to make it worse: Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, and Rian Johnson's hostility and negative reactions to deflecting failings and criticisms to try and poison the well as being "bigoted" or "sexist" is not helping things. And secondly, Johnson is not getting that trilogy (studios say one thing and do another is long time thing in Hollywood and I doubt Bob Igor will okay it) I am almost certain of it. That and the Prequels never really caused the sort of backlash in creating debacles like TLJ or the reaction with the flop of Solo by having a large percentage of the fans intentionally boycott it.

    Prequels had issues but were fun romps. But the key thing was their legacy isn't tarnished by bullshit pandering and self-inserting identity and gender/socio-politics into the franchise. The Sequels are. Until they stop doing this, they will keep slumping with their legacy.
     
  13. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    But the thing with the prequels is that when they first came, they weren't poorly received. "The Phantom Menace" definitely had a mixed reception, but I remember the critics liking all of them more than not. I also seem to remember Ebert giving "The Phantom Menace" 3.5/4 stars, although if I'm wrong about that, my bad. The backlash only seemed to grow after the trilogy ended, especially with the rise of the internet. These days, most people view the more positive reception of the time as a combination of Nostalgia Goggles mixed in with what were innovative effects.

    "Revenge of the Sith" is usually considered the best of the prequels, but the question of whether that makes it 'good' is another issue altogether. By 2015, fans are going to be a lot more skeptical, if only because of the prequels. Now for it's worth, bashing the prequels became trendy after a point, especially as the fandom grew disillusioned with George Lucas. But I also think a lot of people went into these movies ready to bear fangs and draw knives.

    I'm not saying you're wrong and it's possible that 5-10 years down the line, even those who enjoyed these newer Star Wars movies will turn on them too, but let's not pretend like the 'hatedom' has come across as reasonable in their dislike of these movies. I deleted a post that dealt with this because I felt like it is unnecessarily hostile, but it feels like the hatedom has aligned themselves with the alt-right based on how casually they throw around terms like "SJW"...and the more reasonable part of the hatedom seems to tolerate this. Is it really so surprising that the backlash gets ignored, when leading the charge are people who call Rose fat or say Holdo has SJW hair.

    The tragedy is that as much as I hate to admit it, you guys were right. I might like and defend "TLJ", but I can't deny that it damaged the brand and "Solo" has only worsened things. It's a shame that your voices were drowned out by complaints about the star of Star Wars being a black guy.
     
  14. Fang Titan

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    The hate on the Sequels is perfectly reasonable when any vocal criticisms are panned as being racist or sexist by the very top executives who have a clear agenda. Its that simple. In terms of magnitude, the issue the Sequels are facing are already far worse than what the Prequels got and even shills like RLM are turning on Lucas Arts and Disney after the garbage that was TLJ and the boredom that was Solo.

    The Sequels have not ended and there's already backlash with outright boycotts.

    That's telling.

    Like very badly telling how far down the brand has been flushed for this sort of reception and reaction.
     
  15. The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour Well-Known Member

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    Nobody complained about Finn the idea. Like a couple of hundred people asked on youtube why doesn't he look like Temuera Morrison.
    A Maori actor.

    What is the alt right?

    How many members? Principles? Public figures representing? Isn't this a name everyone abandons 2 months from now?
     
  16. Luck I am here

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    George Lucas is like Akira Toriyama.

    He is incredibly creative but without someone compotent to filter out his bad ideas then the movies will never live up to its potential. He also gets worse at writing with age.

    There would probably be just as much complaining but for vastly different reasons.
     
  17. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Is it really reasonable though?

    You say it's reasonable when any criticisms are panned for being racist and sexist and that's a fair point... but when did I accuse you of racism or sexism? You were actually the person who got me interested in the hatedom because I couldn't understand why you were pelting me with insults instead of discussing the movie. You've calmed down and Suigetsu has more-or-less taken up the mantle, but "The Last Jedi" thread was infested with people who were more interested in attacking the fans than the movie itself- even though your 'enemy' is supposed to be the 'top executives who have a clear agenda'. Or they'll make statements about how ugly Rose is. How can anyone say anything like that and think they're coming across as reasonable in todays social and political climate? That's the type of shit that makes it easy for people like Kennedy or her bosses to dismiss you.

    So even if you have a point, does it matter when the hatedom is responding to these allegations of toxicity by...becoming toxic? Because that is a weird battle strategy to have.
     
  18. Fang Titan

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    I would say so.

    Not sure about the meat of your stuff here but I can confidently tell you that when you are in the entertainment industry or any other service industry, the ultimate maxim still holds: "The customer is always right." You don't survive as a business if you isolate yourself from your customers by making insane statements like Rian and KK have. Some things some people have gone too far on but christ, Rose is so ugly there's a clear frame in TLJ where you see her nose is as big as her entire mouth, and the nonsense about the identity politics still holds.

    Also I've always been calm.

    I think the "toxic" elements are a tiny fraction of a fraction of the larger and supermajority of fans not being happy about how the films are treated, used as vehicles for sociopolitical agendas, and being called bullshit by an executive and her top men trying to deflect from this in a personal dimension of delusions, dude.
     
  19. Ghost_of_Gashir Mider T's mom's a hoe

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    Rose is there to make everyone else look pretty.
     
  20. Ben Grimm Kicking the Hulk's Ass

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    There used to be creative director at Blizzard Entertainment named Chris Metzen.

    His best works were Warcraft III and Starcraft.

    However he kind of dropped off in World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, where he basically made the entire universe about his favorite character, Thrall.

    When he finally retired and left, many people thought things would improve in wow lore. But it only got worse, the stuff that has been datamined from BFA...Draenei inquisition, alternate universe Thrall Sister and alternate universe Paladin Garrosh.

    There used to be a Mangaka named Masashi Kishimoto.

    He made a good Manga called Naruto Part 1.
    He fumbled the ball in Naruto Shippuden.

    People thought the Boruto series would be great since he wouldn't have much involvement. But nope, things got worse.

    So remember everyone, things can always get worse. Things can always get much much worse.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  21. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    lol, wouldn't it be a trip if Disney decided to give Star Wars to the people who made the Holiday Special out of spite? Or even better, Asylum Productions. Then maybe we can get that Star Wars/Sharktopus crossover I've been demanding.

    But I'm pretty sure the entire fandom would commit ritual suicide in protest, so...

    You have an interesting perspective, but I think you're underestimating the toxic elements of the hatedom and if you've always been calm, I'd hate to see how nasty you'd get when angry.

    Although let me ask you this, if KK's social agenda is strangling star wars, why is the backlash to said agenda restricted to Star Wars? "Wonder Woman" and "Black Panther" were arguably successful because of their agendas. This is why I don't think anything will change even if you're right, as Disney will see the failure of Star Wars and come to a different conclusion because of the success of those films. Why is Star Wars the political battleground and not the MCU? And how come Lucas's agenda was acceptable in the prequels? Is this only because Kennedy and company badmouthed the detractors? I'm still not even convinced most people who watch these movies even know who Kennedy is. Or is there a more nuanced reason that I'm overlooking?
     
  22. The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour Well-Known Member

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    Is he incredibly creative? he is not churning out product 24/7. His money would had been great for someone truly creative.

    It's not a talent or money problem, it's an ideological problem. That is my speculation. Alos movies are less cxonstrained than serials and video games.

    Asylum can take out a loan or get Disney money and get some good writers and talent...

    Heck even their current writers can do better than deconstruct the basic idea of Star Wars.

    There are Asylum movies that would be great with more time spent and a bigger budget.




    They never made an MCU movie undermining the idea of superheroes. That got piled on the political pc stuff.

    Black Panther shot it's agenda in the fucking foot. Did not watch Wonder Women but it's a WW1 story so people are more accepting.

    Lucas was inept and progressive culture was not this crazy when the prequels came out.

    The debate is not between Billy Bob, Jamal Bob, Hikaromi Bob. It's a minority of the more hardcore movie and Star Wars people on both sides.
     
  23. Gilgamesh die

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    It would have been better than the crap we've gotten
     
  24. Shiba D. Inu #admiralgang

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    ^ this

    perfect comparison
     
  25. Fang Titan

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    I don't doubt there are angry right-wingers who are pissed off at the intentional diversification of the main cast but they are a tiny fragment in a larger tide of people just generally pissed off with how the franchise has turned into a dumpster fire.

    One, Star Wars is much bigger and more influential as a brand and franchise than DC and Marvel ever have been. Two, none of the executives at the other side of Marvel Studios for the MCU or Warner Brothers for DC have had controversial shit going on on their twitter and social media platforms or doing so in interviews or live events like has been the case with Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, and JJ Abrams. Secondly, MCU stuff doesn't shoe-horn in identity politics. Though I do remember there was a upswing in backlash at Heimdall being played by Elba, a black man which upset a lot of people.

    Lucas had no agenda outside of making what he believed was a satisfying trilogy and catering to the fans in his own way. There was no social "justice" or new wave identity politics in the Prequels. This holds true for the MCU but not the Sequels and Disney's take on Star Wars since the purchase.
     
  26. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    Jeremy Jahns did an interesting video of the current Star Wars controversy. Some highlights that interested me include

    - Him describing the new wave of Star Wars as 'feeling like a hostile takeover'.

    - Him comparing the backlash to the same backlash leveled against the prequels, pointing out that the fans were cruel to both Lucas and the kid who played Anakin. Lucas even said something like "Why would I make anymore movies when all people do is yell at you and call you a horrible person?". In essence, Lucas more-or-less retired because of the fan backlash he was experiencing. So I don't know if what we're experiencing now is any worse than it was in the 1990's.

     
  27. The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour Well-Known Member

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    It's worse because feminism is more obscure and tribal than any political issue in the Lucas movies.

    There was some inept capitalism bashing and maybe some War on Terror critique. Those are real fucking issues unlike current feminism. I guess the new movies are anti black based on what we have seen so far.
     
  28. Ben Grimm Kicking the Hulk's Ass

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    Kamal, I have seen Naruto go from a good manga into the horror of Shippuden.
    I stopped caring about One Piece right after the Caesar Clown arc.
    I gave Dragon Ball Super more chances than it deserved.
    I have skipped Homecoming, Ant-man and Guardians of the Galaxy 2.
    I skipped the Desolation of Smaug (Aka the bloating of 5 pages)

    I have come to a realization, sometimes just let things be. Just leave it be.

    Sure sometimes things get better like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, but more times than naught people will just ruin a good thing.

    To be honest Shaktopus could actually fit in as the wildlife of Mon Cala or Naboo.
     
  29. MartialHorror The Convicted Cinephile!

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    I have to admit that sometimes I feel bad for coming across as so hostile against George Lucas, as it goes against too much of what I believe in. My hatred towards the prequels isn't comparable to my love of the original movie alone. When I think of Wes Craven, I think of "A Nightmare on Elm Street", not "The Hills Have Eyes Part 2". When I think of John Carpenter, I think of "The Thing", not "Ghosts of Mars". I remember them as masters based on their contributions to cinema, not their mistakes.

    But for some reason, Lucas's movies often make me bear my fangs. Maybe it's just that Star Wars has become a cesspool of negativity and quite frankly...has been for the past 20 years. It almost drowns out the quality of the early films.
     
  30. Ben Grimm Kicking the Hulk's Ass

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    People become jaded over time.

    I honestly love Terminator 2.

    I have no love for Avatar.

    I think Lucas would be better if he kept true advisors at his side rather than Yes-men

    This is what happens when Lucas works alone.



    It had a great premise, but honestly they put singing in places where it was unnecessary.
     
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