1. Welcome to the forums! Take a second to look at our Beginner's Guide. It contains the information necessary for you to have an easier experience here.

    Thanks and have fun. -NF staff
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Forum Skin Contest:

    Let us know if you’re participating or would like to participate in a forum wide skin contest. If so, please give us your opinions here.

    Dismiss Notice

What is justice

Discussion in 'Philosophical Forum' started by Squirrel King, Jan 23, 2005.

  1. Squirrel King Squirrel King

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Ahh.. the classical Philosophical question.. what is justice?
    Please try to make this a real debate, no silly posts or anything.

    What is justice and who does it apply to?
    I beleive there will never be such thing as "true" justice. Each person has their own beleifs, world view, and morals.
    Since "Justice" generally is brought up because of interactions between more than one person, we have to set a standard. Each society seems to have it's own standards, with it's similarities and differences.

    So in this sense, there can not really be a good definition of the word and it's concept.

    It's been forever since I've read Plato's Republic so I can't remember all the details, but someone defined justice as getting what you are owed. But in a counter from (Socrates I beleive) it was argued: If you owe a freind a sword, and he comes to you with clear intention of killing someone with it - how is that justice? A death will result in someone getting what they are owed.


    That brings up a good question; is death and killing unjust, no matter what the manner is?

    There were also two more definitions of justice provided, but I'll be damned if I can remember them. But they were wrong, and someone else's opinion, so it doesn't matter.


    What do you beleive justice is? And what needs to be be done to have that, if it does?

    I'm gonna see if I can dig up a copy of the book .. I dunno, I'm trying to study harder this semester after a .87 GPA so I'm thinking to much... Getting to smart..
     
    Tags:
  2. Exerzet Out of the Ordinary

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    I think there never will be any 'true justice'.
    Because of the fact that Justice is something that feels like the right thing for every individual being.

    Laws are a wery good solution to this problem.
    Everybody could mail in what they thought of as wrong, and what to do with the matter, and a council could gather all these mails, and put up a list.
    When so so many ppl think of it as the right thing to do, it could become a law. Or even better, a guideline.
     
  3. buzzy86 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Justice...something which everybody claims when in trouble, something which belongs to everybody, but, is it a general concept which affects all of us or an individual thing.

    All of us have at least once claimed justice for something we weren't pleased of, then we insisted on our point and reasons and we just got nothing positive. We were really sure to be right, our reasons were so clear, this was real justice, something had to be done, but nothing was done.

    I think justice is something really relative. The word "justice" and its implications change meaning depending on the person. Depending on your circumstances, your family, your surroundings, you develop your moral and thus your justice. The same concept cannot be applied to a gangster and a priest, they absolutely diverge.

    Laws sure help to create a united concept of justice but if they were put to debate I'm sure everybody would have different oppinions. Their existence is positive, as Kakashi says, when the majority accepts them.
     
  4. Rurouni Mushishi

    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    jus?tice
    n.

    1. The quality of being just; fairness.


    Or so everyone thinks. In reality, there is no true justice.

    Consider this:

    Somewhere in a faraway land, a man robs the bank (gains alot of money) and runs. Eventually, a police officer catches up to him and holds him at gunpoint saying he'll shoot if the man doesn't hand the money over and surrender. The man tells him to listen to his reason first. A great distance to this town, lies a village that has been abandoned by the government of this land because it's been taken over by a disease and they've decided to save their money just let the people stay and die. The village is very poor and cannot afford any medical help. The man says the money he stole is needed in order save his village. The officer, after hearing the story, says that it is his duty and that the laws must apply to everyone. The man is arrested.

    (There are plotholes, I know)

    In a sense, both situations are forms of justice. The police officer, arrests the man because the man stole from the community. What he is doing is fair and just, he is helping the community.

    The man, he is helping the dying village. What he is doing is saving hundreds of live, morally just.

    Therefore, there is no such thing as justice, in my opinion. It's just another word telling you to do what you think is right.
     
  5. Keramachi Fight war, not wars.

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    I doubt true justice is achieved in this lifetime, which is sad. Some people just don't get what they deserve. Justice is a concept like good or evil, and as such, is subjective. You'll come across people who don't believe in it, who hate it, or will do anything for it. Many think that justice is just a word. Many more believe that its meaning goes far beyond fairness. I am a member of the latter group, despite the fact that I consent to its absence from our society.
     
  6. GaaraOfTheDesert ...but I eated it.

    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    since there is no objective knowledge, there can't be any true justice either.

    simply put :p
     
  7. AlphaKeny1 GUSTO

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    I had to write an essay on this last year. I'll post it and hope that someone finds it useful... because I still think all my assignments suck.

    Justice is an ideal created by communities based off their morality and perceptions, and also by their current environment and atmosphere amongst people. It is a way to govern people and create order between them. It is the harmonization of the whole community based on fairness for each individual. Justice is a word and an illusion which creates a dualism of good and bad in order to rule out those who are deemed evil.
    Justice is to be right or reasonable through law or morals. To justify something is to prove that it is just, right, or reasonable. Through justification, we use logistics based on what is morally correct through ethics and law. Thusly, the question arises through case-specific examples whether or not justice is being served. Then, who?re we, as humans, to determine what is correct and just? I have then therefore devised two different types of justice. Although both may be synthetic, one is idealistic and the other is artificial. The idealistic view is rather universal, and is often portrayed through religion. It is the common good that binds humans together in times of crises. It is hard to harness because it only arises when a community is in peril. An example of the idealistic view is that of ?God?s great justice? in that it rules the human subjects for the ultimate good despite history and background for the individual. The artificial justice, however, is more of a flawed system which is used to apply to a community to administer them. Being people, the idea of justice is good in theory, but when applied to people, it has potential to be corrupt and misused. Legal justice is only present to keep order of the people by providing a general welfare for the populous.
    Justice is a key component to a community. However, it is not the most important. Justice is only served to create fairness and to subject those who despise and go against the majority?s views. Love is more important than justice because love binds the people together?you can create justice without the need to truly care for your peers. A judge will sentence you fairly, setting aside passions and concerns.
    A just community is simple. It would be composed of your most basic people, to be put in broad perspective, who would attempt to create fairness between them. Usually, it would be the largest person with the biggest club and strongest arm that would have the most say in what goes on. However, in more civil terms, justice would be comprised of equality between more than one person in a community, which disregard selfishness, in a mere democratic and liberal fashion. That is to say, there would always be the opposing side that disagree and disregard the rules that the people establish for fairness. A community does not have to have specific peoples, but usually it would have those who compose a regular community?those who can agree on the same terms and have similar ideals. Each individual may simply contribute to their community by easily speaking their own opinions. However, if one does not agree with their peers and everybody goes against them, then that person would be considered an outcast to the group. Said person would then possibly be cast out of the posse.
    Justice is an illusion created by people to establish rule and order that people can abide by through fairness and equality. It is, however, perfect in theory and flawed when applied to mankind.
     
  8. Ronin_Musashi Shorin-Ryu Shodan

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Yuoko, rep points to you simply for starting this thread. AlphaKeny1, rep point for the essay. Ahh, I feel generous today! :)
    I don't really have a whole lot to add to this, but I believe that there is no true definition of justice because it is based on an individual's moral values. I will say this though: there does seem to be some similarities between most people's morals. Pretty much all civilizations believe that killing others (at least when it is unprovoked) is wrong, stealing from others is wrong, and that it is right to compensate others in some way for wrongs that have been done to them. Whether this is nature or nurture though, is impossible to determine.
     
  9. crabman Jamin'

    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    a character in the video game series Guilty Gear. Keep it simple people.
     
  10. Stealth Tomato It has big taste.

    Messages:
    10,311
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
  11. Sayo The Hedgehog

    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    and a fellow GFXer =P
     
  12. Jiraya_Ero_Senjin Strawberry's

    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    No foolish reply's svp, this is an intresting debate !! =\
    :blink
     
  13. Sayo The Hedgehog

    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    whahahhaa, i quoted vash and you're saying that only TO me, get outa here =\
     
  14. Sketchy Tsunade Fanatic

    Messages:
    5,543
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Hmm only serious reply's, a mod should know that :p .

    As for justice....That can never happen, evryone has his own idea of justice.
    Even the law doesn't do just for everyone.
    It's only a foolish dream having justice!! :p
     
  15. Squirrel King Squirrel King

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Yea, I know true justice will never happen. I beleive Socrates himself stated it. In the Republic he tried creating Utopia, a perfect place. The idea went through several stages, and I beleive nothing accoplishable was ever brought up.

    It seems that we've all come to a conclusion that due to the nature of an individual's mind there can never be true justice.

    Let's discuss: What is best for society?
    Let's great a polis here.
    What would be best for us all?

    Let's say this polis is a republic like America is. (Getting technical there, but this is a technical discussion); with no corroption for crime - at the moment.

    (We're going to bring alot of controversial topics into discussion, oh boy!)

    So we have a happy polis. Everyone has a job. Things are voted on. Everyones happy.

    Non Natural death
    Killing (Act of defiance - wars, etc)
    Murder (Personal aggression - no good result) and
    Homocide (accidental)

    What is a just consequence for each action?
    The laws we have now clearly support two things: Motive and intention. I beleive this is correct. Decisions should not be made on the action, but the reason behind the action. However, we cannot get into the minds of people. So we have to be fair and hand out punishment to all people.. even if they are truely sorry and it was an accident.

    But; should there be punishment? Clearly there are differences between the physco dude who's gonna kill again, and the person who can at be honest - or deceive - and not act like they will do another wrong against society.

    The point I'm getting at is - Justice lays behind the minds again. Even though each person has their own needs for justice, societal justice also cannot truely be any good either.

    Justice is nothing more than setting down a set of rules. Sometimes it will hurt some good people, sometimes it well benefit some bad people, but it will also benefit some good people and hurt some bad. It's an ever fluncuating point on the good/bad line. Justice is always changing.

    Justice is corrupt by the minds of individuals who seek personal gain.

    Humans will always want more. (Generalization)
    That includes doing unjust things.

    Sometimes, unjust things will need to be done to prevent a greater injustice. Justice is neither good or bad.


    Justice is what needs to be done to keep Humans in control in an environment. If it were not for justice, there would be chaos. Justice is laws, Justice is restrictions, Justice can be anything. Justice allows large groups of humans to live together.
     
  16. imchemist What??

    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    It is a tricky question. I think justice is relative to what the situation calls for. It is also a double edged sword because an act can be just on one side and not on the other. I don't believe that there is a thing that can truly be called just in every angle.
     
  17. RyokoForTheWin Average every day sane psycho

    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    I just knew someone was going to bring up Guilty gear. I felt it in my bones when I first saw this topic. I believe justice is unjust. Screw justice. Give me mercy any day of the week. And pumpkin pie. Awesome avatar thar Chemist. ^^
     
  18. parker pyne and my grizzly bear face

    Messages:
    6,607
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    316
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Justice > mercy. Justice is fair and consistent. Mercy is like giving a woman a lenient punishment because she evokes your sympathy more than the other crims.

    In the same way that rationality is irrational? Or mice aren't really mice? :awesome

    Yeah, appeal to flattery fallacy. I'm onto you pal :mad
     
  19. impersonal Banned

    Messages:
    10,449
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Justice is a french band inspired by Daft Punk.

    It's also a value that's a huge lot of trouble for utilitarians.
     
  20. RyokoForTheWin Average every day sane psycho

    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Appeal to flattery fallacy? Yeah, because I couldn't possibly find it keen that others have a taste for Ryoko too. It is simply my personal opinion that mercy is favorable over justice. My bad for not keeping strictly on target.
     
  21. Jello Biafra The Golden Path

    Messages:
    13,412
    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Justice is the inequality of equals, the holding of rich and poor, powerful and powerless, to mutual standards regardless of an individual's capacity to uphold them, unmitigated by mercy or compassion. In short, it the majestic "equality" which demands that neither rich nor poor sleep under the bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.
     
  22. AbnormallyNormal 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 * 2 * 3

    Messages:
    20,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    the idea of justice seems to me to be sort of, everyone getting their due.... or things happening fairly. it has a lot to do with equality
     
  23. ??? ...

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    313
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    The living world has been, is, and will always be unjust. Death is the only true, perfect justice.
     
  24. The Space Cowboy Unfair, Unjust, Human

    Messages:
    19,757
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Justice is both a practice and and ideal, at the same time. You may only observe it as practiced, or examine the ideal. But since the practice effects the ideal and the ideal effects the practice, only one aspect may be examined at a given time.
     
  25. mister_manji I have tired of this

    Messages:
    3,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Justice is a concept that can be applied either morally, or legally, and unfortunately, the two are often mutually exclusive.

    also, why the fuck did you necromance a 3YO thread?
     
  26. snowninja101 New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    justice, it's never been who is right and the search for truth. Unfortunately, justice is what the majority think it's right and wrong. sure the fondamental of the justice system came from religion ( shall not kill, steal, etc etc). but the finer detail, the way the cour system work and such, as been buit and control by who is in power. so justice in our time is not what is right or wrong, it's what the majority or who in power think it's right and who is wrong. maybe one day we might see "true justice" but until then, the strongest or the majority shall reing justice
     
  27. AkiraDono 仙人

    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2007
    Justice is giving the person what is due to him.
    It's not giving people equal share. It's giving people what they need.
    For example, you would give a samll peice of pizza to a small person because that is what he needs and you give a big peice to a big person because it is what he needs.
     
  28. Cax Rebel INS

    Messages:
    20,472
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    393
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    There is no such thing as right or wrong. I've mentioned it many times before. Justice? What's justice? It's a standard set by the masses of people agreeing with each other. People seem to think that, just because most people think somethings right - means if you think it's wrong, you're wrong, visa versa.

    What's good or evil? You see, there are no such things, yet again. The only thing that exists is what you think. Justice doesn't exist. The only thing that exists is what you think. You could go ahead and say what you think is good, bad, good, evil, justice - but in the end, it's still only your thoughts.
     
  29. Jello Biafra The Golden Path

    Messages:
    13,412
    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    And the existentialist says "So what?"

    It doesn't matter if these ideas arise from humans themselves. We do not need a higher power to make these concepts have meaning. We ourselves give them meaning.

    Acknowledging the humanistic origin of ideas should not lead us straight to nihilism.
     
  30. Cax Rebel INS

    Messages:
    20,472
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    393
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    ^Exactly. We ourself, every one of us, makes the meaning. It's different for everyone, and practically, 'justice' does not exist. Only what you think.
     
Loading...