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What is plot no jutsu (or: it never exist!)

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by RGZ_ReGZ, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. RGZ_ReGZ Refined Gundam Zeta

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    It seems, recently, people would contribute any defeat/win/survival of a character to something better known as "plot no jutsu". On the surface, it is simple: "Due to a certain plot (hole), this character is defeat/win/survival, with no or a weak explaination for it." Usually, the weak explaination included but not limited to attitude problems, some sudden higher-up calling back, luck, etc.

    But when you had think about it, none of these are plot no jutsu... or rather, it never truly exist. Attitude of a character, environment, sudden change of heart, etc... these are all important factors of a person's action, be it fictional or real.

    Let's look at some of the common "plot no jutsu"s:
    1) Attitude problem
    One of the complain about Hidan's fight is that, had he not been such a jackass, then he wouldn't have let Asuma escaped.
    But then again, isn't this one of the greatest cause of downfall for people? If you believe in god, then hey, you have the seven sins, which is nothing more then seven attitude problems.

    If you are not christian, just consider this: is it not surprising that bullies often ended up living in the street, because they do nto have any skills? But when you think about it, their "lack of skill" is caused by attitude problem, not necessary their actual intelligent; the reason they fail at school is due to their unwilling to study, not unable to study. Likewise with many other discipline, such as music.

    Thus, attitude problem, by itself is a huge contributing factor.

    2) Higher ups
    Yet another thing complain in Hidan-Asuma fight. Another claim, which seems more possible, is that AL call back Hidan and Kuzu, stopping them from killing our heroes.
    This one is solid because of the following:
    1) Can't they just delay a little longer?
    2) What happen with time management?
    3) Why so suddenly?!
    However, some people had also forgot that Hidan had kept reminding Kakuzu about having to hurry up, so partially, it's also Kakuzu's fault.
    Besides, in real life, Manager are often as much assholes as AL. Watch the movie RV or Office Spaces - bosses can be like that. My boss had once let me off a weekend, but suddenly said I can't, saying he need help. Why? cause he let his nephew off.

    3) Sudden change of heart
    One comment of Sasori's loss is due to his lack of will to fight; even though, yes his hundred puppet is his last trump card, and if that failed no other tump card exist- but those guys had stated he could still survive and kept attacking, especially since even with "dead" puppet he can still switch around. Thus, his sudden desire to let himself getting killed is a plot no jutsu.

    It would seems like people do not have something call "on a whim". However, what is "on a whim"? It is a "sudden".

    But when you done something "suddenly", is it so "sudden"? or, is there some percursor that just didn't show in action, but have happened? Many of our "sudden" actions always have purcursors, that we just didn't show, or cannot be seen, but is still there.

    One prolbem when people complain is that they assume they have all the informaion, but in actuality we didn't - for example "Itachi is something something since all his backstory is revealed." On the other hand, we sometimes just forget all the backstory —for example: what does Sasori want? perhaps he want to end it artistically. Perhaps he want to end it by his parent, whose puppet is his first creations - "beginning and the end". To me, that makes perfect sense, since that is partially what he wants.

    Conclusion
    Despite all these, one thing I have to say about plot no jutsu: EVERYTHING is one. Every character's develoment and action is to make sure the plot move toward for someway. So frankly, saying "plot no jutsu' or "plot hole no jutsu" is just an inability to analyze properly, and may even be irresponsible.

    Lastly, people that complain chapter is slow: it's gonna be slow if we read it one chapter at a time. Have you guys sometimes feel that a single volume (ton-something) is way too fast? That's what happen when they adapt to a weekly chapter-by-chapter stle.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2006
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  2. RasenganUltimate Member

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    o.O I clap my hands for your theory. I am speechless.
     
  3. Wrath Mourning

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    "Plot no jutsu" is laziness on the part of the reader.
     
  4. <insertnamehere> Active Member

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    yeah... but then again, some people are just idiots and can't help themselves. they just, for some strange reason, want the bad guys to win. they, for some reason or another, think it's actually possible for the bad guys to kill all the good guys in a story meant for kids and they get their hopes up that <insertakatsukimembernamehere> would somehow kill somebody and then they get disappointed when they don't. so then they come to narutoforums to complain about how their favorite badguy lost with other people who like chearing for the badguys.

    i mean really... sure sometimes the bad guys are cool (definately not deidara), but do you actually expect them to win in the end? don't bother getting your hopes up.
     
  5. Pimp of Pimps But prostitute to all

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    Eexxaaccttllyy
     
  6. Kisame Banned

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    plot no jutsu is what helps a character come back to life or never die in the first place.

    Cough gaara, asuma, chouji
     
  7. Sys Well-Known Member

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    For me, plot no jutsu is only when something illogical happens without any explanation being given for it. If there is an explanation, then it's ok for me. Examples of plot no jutsu (actually there are very few):
    -Chouji's survival
    -Kakashi's MS (only for now, because it will most likely be explained later on)
    -Asuma survivng would have been plot no jutsu if Ino didn't have some medical knowledge, but I have to say that Ino being a medic nin is quite cheap

    To the thread starter: I agree with you, every example you gave are just part of the story, and therefore can not be considered as plot holes.
    But I think most of the people that complain about PNJ basically complain about the story in itself, or some parts of the story should I say. I see a lot of people on this board saying that you can not complain about the story, that if you don't like it you should just quit reading. But I disagree with that. You can very well like the story as a whole but in the same time being disappointed by some parts of it. That's the same for a song, for a movie, for a book,...
     
  8. Arthas Anko's Lover

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    I dont know about plot-no jutsu but I do know about my "suspension of disbelief" factor. (Thank you woozie for reminding me about this term).

    I agree with you on your first two points RGZ_ReGZ, but not on your third point. As far as Sasori goes I would have found it more belivable if Chiyo had not made that comment about Sasori dieing because he chose to. If she had made that comment and then we had seen some explanation on why Sasori chose to die then I could have been able to "suspend my disbelief." Come on, major bad guy who took down a whole country and poisoned then left a victim so he could suffer for 3 days before dieing just decided to kill himself on a "whim" ? If I had any hope of it being explained in the future it would irritate me less but with Sasori and Chiyo dead it isnt likely.

    Another example is the drugs issue with Sasuke. I have little issue with the guy using drugs, he might use them if he felt he could kill itachi. Oro would allow it as long as no side effects lingered on his future container but Sakura just tossing out after the fight "oh he was using drugs..." I kept waiting for a qualifier such as "I know this because his speed was too high or his chakra felt dirty etc..." My only hope is that she explains it somehow later in the story why she felt that way because during the whole fight it didnt seem like Sasuke used drugs/kinjutsu in his training. Most people dont go looking for plot-holes, they do want to believe in the story as it comes but the author of the story needs to work and meet as half-way as well.


    Personal view:
    Problem is this: Say a guy bought a lottery ticket, won a million buck. Fair enough it happens, a million to one chance paid off. Second guy buys a ticket immediatly after the first guy and guess what he gets lucky too. This *could* be just a wierd streak or random event but I can believe it. Alright after this no-one buys a ticket for a very long time but then finally a third guy buys a lottery ticket.....Guess what he wins....Now at this point I'm going to be thinking all right it could be a very lucky streak but probably the game is rigged and I want it checked out. Now say a 4th guy decides to buy a ticket....guess what, its a bit early but so far it looks like he won as well. At this point I am totally convinced the game is rigged. Put the first guy as Choji, then Neji, Gaara and now probably Asuma and you get the idea. Saving one of these guys is o.k, Saving two maybe, but three or four guys all being born under a lucky star stops me "suspending my disbelief"

    Moral of the Story: People enjoy reading stories about heroes who take a million to one chance and win BUT if Million to One chances start paying off 9.5 times out of 10 for quite a few people it starts being less enjoyable and more annoying.
     
  9. havedeath Artist

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    plot-no-jutsu = plot device to make unbelievable things happen that shouldn't happen.
     
  10. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    What you listed(IMO anyway) are not examples of PnJ.

    PnJ are things like Chouji saying "The last one I have left is the red pepper-pill. But... If I use that, I'll most definitely die..." Then he uses the pepper pill and somehow lives long enough to sit by a tree, get picked up by medic nins, and taken back to Konoha.

    Another is Kabuto dodging a Rasengan(not really a Rasengan, but that doesn't matter for this explanation), but yet when Naruto is holding his hand(which has a kunai through it mind you) he cannot do anything except sit there and take it.

    The shitty part is that after Kabuto stabs Naruto's hand there is enough time for dialogue and for Kabuto to think.

    *Naruto's hand gets stabbed*
    Naruto "Untill I become Hokage I refuse to die."
    Next page, Naruto "You won't beable to escape from this one..."
    *Naruto starts Rasengan*
    Next page, Kabuto "This chakra is moving just like before.... No!"
    Next page, *Kabuto gets hit by Rasengan*

    If I think of anymore I'll post back later.
     
  11. I Я Reckless! shoot 'em dead

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    For now, the only fight after the timeskip I consider to be influenced by the plot is Sasori's fight.

    That fight was all about Sakura, and it wasnt to show off Chiyo at all.Pretimeskip, even kishi knew that sakura was the least skilled member of the rookie 9, and that she was nothing more than a distraction and a waste of time.However, he decided to actually do something with her character and that is why he had her train under Tsundae.

    The Sasori fight was the only real "big" fight she ever had, so to show how much she had improved after the timekip and that she was no longer a piece of shit, he had her fight Sasori, one of the strongest members of Akatsuki, but he had her do it with someone who actually had a chance to defeat him, his grandmother.

    Needless to say, we all know that sakura could not have done it by herself.But, the fight did show that she had improved somewhat, and Sasori HAD to die, because we know Kishi was not going to kill off sakura.
     
  12. blazingshadow True Wind Rune

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    itachi using MS on his little brother instead of jiraiya and then instead of using his last stock of the MS on jiraiya he runs away and uses it on the wall to escape. that is plot no jutsu
     
  13. Pyroneko 28 Member

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    Plot no jutsu is supposed to be the plot contrivances that appear. When you have something oddly convient occur that just happens to benefit a hero.

    Example: After Naruto tricks Kiba into hitting Akamaru, Naruto finds himself being barraged with linear attacks with opening to exploit. Kiba charges at him from behind. Naruto strains as much as possible to mold some chakra. Kiba in, his crouched stance, closes in. Naruto strains and farts. Kiba just happens to have super sensitive smell at the time, and have his face right up to Naruto's butt. The result is Kiba being paralyzed long enough for Naruto to use Uzumaki Naruto rendan to finish the match.

    Recently though it would seem that anything someone doesn't like is labeled "plot no jutsu" erroneously out of sheer laziness and lack of understanding.
     
  14. RGZ_ReGZ Refined Gundam Zeta

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    My greatest problem is that people seems to blame EVERYTHING on plot no jutsu. Partly, yes, becaue you have to make certain things happen in order for the plot to move certain way; however, by no means does it mean a bad guy must win, or some certain thing must be happen in order for it to be "logical".

    If anything, had those people actually drew the manga with their certain opinion, wouldn't it be plot no jutsu by itself? And yet these people complain that if something (usually bad things or even death) had happened, it is not plot no jutsu.

    Choji and Neji's survival I can understand, but other fights is debatable. Even with Asuma now, there's still a possibility that he could be in DoA, or in a coma, etc. People had survived worst then what Asuma is going through now (including but not limited to a bullet in the head/neck/arterie). And as I mentioned, jackass/pointy-headed bosses are real.

    Of course, if people do it in jest, then that's fine, but mroe often then not, people actually complain things with the explaination of "plot no jutsu".
     
  15. geG Very Rude

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    People just use it as a scapegoat explanation when something happens in the manga that they don't approve of.
     
  16. Pyroneko 28 Member

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    Basically.
     
  17. rorykage Too Cool for Ninja School

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    agreed.

    though frankly i don't think there is such a thing PNJ, the story the happens the way it happns. it doesn't if x character only won because of x advantage, or x villain lost because of x handicap. whatever stars alligned to make the impossible happen doesn't matter, the point is that it happened, deal with it.
     
  18. TheoDerek Rise Against

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    About two weeks or so ago there was a thread about Sasuke and Naruto's next fight. One of the main topics was Naruto's weakness to genjutsu and Sasuke's massive improvement in genjutsu. A lot of the members in the thread decided that Sasuke may very well forget he knows the meaning of the word genjutsu.

    IF the fight turns out like that then PnJ will have just left it's mark.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2006
  19. uchiha_C Half-Mortal

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    alot of the examples you use are just what you say, not plot no jutsu. they are just how the character's attitude is/luck(like naruto's fart on kiba is luck, not plot no jutsu).

    but choji surviving that red "death" pill is plot no jutsu. and i bet if Gai ever used all 8 gates he would "barely" survive as well..
     
  20. Zer0_UchiHa Member

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    umm i dont think u know what plot no jutsu fully refers to. its not someone beat someone stronger so it must be plot no jutsu. plot no jutsu is something that makes you say "no way" "thats wrong" "its not consistent" "anyone else would do this" "its totally logical to do this" etc etc etc.

    here i will list some plot no jutsu (also bear in mind, kishi does have the ability to correct certain plot no jutsu's as i will mention below)

    lee versus gaara: why open the 5 gates? he took off the weight and was moving so fast gaara couldnt see him. why not just run around to his back and stab gaara with a kunai? instead of giving him that downwards bicycle kick, why not stab a kunai in the top of his head? when opening the gates, why not continually keep stabbing him with two kunais in your hands instead of punching him?

    ^^ THAT is plot no jutsu.

    sasuke versus gaara: same deal, why charge directly at gaara with chidori? why not run around to the side or back of gaara and stab the chidori into his head? PLOT NO JUTSU once again.

    chidori: as mentioned above, sasuke could do chidori in his hand, hold it there and run circles around gaara like he was and then instead of kicking him, stab him in the face with chidori :D or if gaara was in the ball, keep running circles around him till he peeled through the ball and stabbed him. PLOT NO JUTSU.

    rasengan: kakashi knows rasengan now! why not teach that to sasuke instead? surely rasengan is much better than chidori in some cases. even though its A-rank, as opposed to S-rank raikiri, surely it has advantages greater than chidori. for one, there doesnt seem to be a limit to the amount of rasengans u produce, but even if there was, it will prove useful in some instance where chidori doesnt. picture sasuke fighting gaara in the ball with rasengan instead of chidori :D im sure gaara's ball would have been turned into mince meat and so would gaara :D we all so how the rasengan blows a hole through the back of the hospital water tower as opposed to the stab of the chidori. so why didnt kakashi teach rasengan to sasuke, someone who can copy it easily with sharingan? PLOT NO JUTSU thats why :D

    shikamaru: why doesnt he have kunai's strapped all over his body? trap someone in ur shadow, walk over to them, grab a kunai from ur left sock (not sure if too many ninjas would have one in their left sock :p if they did grab from somewhere else :D) and stab them in the face :D u might get a punch in the face, but they would be dead :D so why doesnt shikamaru have an abundance of kunai's or a weapon summoning scroll, PLOT NO JUTSU. :D

    i could go on and on about plot no jutsu's,but now that i have explained them in more detail, i hope u understand them more.

    just to end, naruto beating neji is semi-plot no jutsu at best. neji is stronger than naruto and it makes u think how could he lose, but there wasnt any glaring plot no jutsus in the fight save for perhaps naruto's uppercut. but at that time neji thought he won the fight and relaxed, switched off his byakugan and got everythign he deserved. so no, neji losing to naruto is not really a plot no jutsu, semi at best, but under those circumstance its totally reasonable. neji's cockiness made him lose.


    that was taken from another thread i wrote in, but essentially u get my point. plot no jutsu is not the fact that someone percievably weaker can beat someone stronger, as in naruto beating neji or even kiba, plot no jutsu are things that are soooo illogical, so ridiculous that to accept them, u must attribute them to plot no jutsu :D

    i like what Sasuke3759 wrote, that is perfect explanation of plot no jutsu, well done dude.
     
  21. Naruto_Rasengan Banned

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  22. Mikazuki no Mai Dance of the Crescent Moon

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    You prove everyone's point of PnJ just ppl being to lazy to understand a situation. By your logic all the fights in the whole story make no sense.

    The reason it is written like the way it is is for suspense. It wouldn't be as interesting if Rock Lee just killed Gaara, that would leave out so many fights and an entire arc later on... I am sure Kishi has the whole story pretty much set on how it is going to end. This is an anime/manga not real life. I am sure in a real life situation you would just kill your opponent.

    The point of the Chuunin Exams was to showcase your skills, not brutally murder your opponent.

    As for the rasengan being taught to Sasuke. Even though he is a genius with sharigan, his eyes make the chidori more of a suitable move for him, and also fits well into the plot. Rasengan is a much harder move to learn than chidori, and also as kakashi stated in one of the lastest chapters, it took sasuke longer to learn about nature manipulation and all that mumbo jumbo than sasuke.

    Naruto was able to learn rasengan so fast because he was using Kage Bunshin. At the time we did now know this but in recent chapters I believe we all can come to that conclusion.

    Onto the neji thing. If naruto never beat neji, then neji would still be the same old prick he used to be and would not have went out to save sasuke on the retrieval arc. All the peices fall into place after the occurance. Kishimoto is a true genius after all in the way he makes most of his story string together, whether it be instant or over time.

    Also if Naruto lost to Neji, he probably wouldn't have been able to go after Gaara, and beat him, changing his ways, but Gaara should be dead because rock lee should have stab him in the head...
     
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