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What Makes Marco superior to Katakuri?

Discussion in 'Ohara Library' started by Canute87, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. DiscoZoro20 Ōka Shichibukai

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    No Vista did not hit him successfully. I´m talking if someone actually connects a hit without the logia intangibility/haki or whatever interfering. He would inflict damage despite being physically weaker than Jozu so don´t pretend the same wouldn´t apply to Marco, that´s just massive downplaying. That Marco wouldn´t get any clean hits without blindsiding them is again a baseless claim. As I said he did connect a hit against a focused Kizaru (connected as in Kizaru couldn´t transform into light) and he looked really surprised at Marco´s speed so it is not at all guaranteed that those 2 would be able to dodge his attacks. To use Whitebeard or Akainu as a basis for that claim does not work. Whitebeard is slower than Marco and Akainu is stronger than Aokiji and Kizaru so obviously you can´t use their positive or negative feats to make a claim for the other admirals. There is a reason why Akainu is fleet admiral and they are not. And yes Marco can keep up with admirals physically. He easily withstood a punch from Akainu without budging a milimeter.
     
  2. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    Chest and neck should be clean into hits seeing that people constantly get hit in those areas through the course of this series is what normally takes them out. In akainu's situation, vista and marco's failure lies more along if akainu subconsciously, actively did something or did nothing at all it's really hard to determine. But for the most it essentially leads to the same conclusion and marco and vista are simply inadequate.

    Hitting a blocked arm is not a clean hit.
    I wouldn't say he was surprised at marco's speed, he just seems he didn't know what to expect from his fighting capabilities.

    It happens After katakuri calmed down he flat out owned G4 luffy. or when croc had adjust to luffy having his weakness with him. Usually a one surprise from an encounter means little to the overall fight.....well unless it's WB at the end of it.

    Whitebeard isn't slower than Marco. Akainu was essentially chosen out of philosophy. He is stronger than Kiji but not by much in fact a very very small margin otherwise him suffering grave injuries like kiji wouldn't have been an actual thing.

    Akainu doesn't punch with that much concussive force or rather THAT punch didn't have any concussive force you think that punch had the intention of knocking luffy away? , So it isn't something marco would need to budge to. Just counter with his regen. I want to see marco stand up to a light speed kick from kizaru and you have me there.

    Marco doesn't have much diversity to his fighting style like the admirals, he's purely physically based, isn't physically superior, isn't faster, doesn't have better haki and has nowhere near the destructive capabilities to put an admiral down. He simply just doesn't stand the chance of pushing one.
     
  3. DiscoZoro20 Ōka Shichibukai

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    Yeah but see you are using Akainu´s feats to say that Marco wouldn´t be able to cut Kizaru or Aokiji while it is very possible and indicated from the scenes involving the 2 admirals and Marco that he would.

    As I said clean hit as in Kizaru didn´t become intangible successfully. Now imagine that same scene with Marco swinging his talons at Kizaru´s arm and you know he would draw first blood. I do not know why you keep denying that.

    On the subject of Marco tagging Kizaru, the burden of proof is on you that he wouldn´t be able to. We´ve seen one interaction between them with Marco catching him and none that proves the opposite. Also there is another example with Rayleigh also successfully tagging Kizaru and connecting a hit that drew blood. So that already makes 2 feats with first mates successfully tagging and hitting Kizaru and none where they failed.

    The Katakuri argument isn´t relevant. There is no ground at all for you to say that Kizaru is so overwhelmingly superior that he could outclass Marco whenever he wants to, there is a reason he chose to use seastone cuffs to beat Marco because he can´t.


    Then why is it that Whitebeard was unable to tag Kizaru and unable to dodge the likes of Squardo whlie Marco did both of these feats successfully? If you give Whitebeard stats based on nothing but power-scaling you should do the same for Marco and pretend that he is physically stronger than Jozu and more lethal than Vista, don´t use double-standards. I know that Kiji is not much weaker than Akainu but tbh I´m unsure what you are trying to say with this. Please elaborate.

    Fair enough you might have a point there regardless it is pretty bold to claim that Marco is vastly inferior to the admirals in physical strength. He´s pretty rigged and can kick around admirals like footballs.

    He has superior hax + superior mobility compared to Akainu/Aokiji and comparable speed to Kizaru. That is enough to give them trouble. Besides I never said he would put an admiral down but you certainly can´t claim he wouldn´t be able to injure them.
     
  4. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    But you see i actually believe if akainu was in the air or on the ground in "solid state" marco would have been able to kick him away too.
    It just seems melee attacks seem to have a better "look" because they got kicked away. But understand under no condition were they actually hurt. Kizaru felt absolutely no pain from his marco encounter for instance. I doubt kiji felt either because nothing was highlighted (assumption on my part for that particular scene).


    Intangible at which point exactly?

    Against Marco Kizaru wasn't trying to escape, and with rayleigh rayleigh had cut him before he fully dispersed into the vacuum. The only time we saw somebody tag kizaru at actual light speed was in a movie.


    KIzaru has more things going for him and that essentially where the issue lies with him and Marco. Remember when you have difficult fights there is a general trade off that can happen.

    You fight be faster but he's stronger, you have better evade he has better defense things like that.

    I'm not saying marco is outclassed physically if he was outclassed he would be fodder, but simply this, he doesn't make up the necessary attack power to help compliment his physical abilities. There's simply nothing marco has OVER the admirals that would help, his regen just means he'll take longer to actually put down. But marco isn't bringing any kind of intensity to the admrials where admirals tiring out would be an issue or even something that would even happen, akainu and kiji fought for ten days hurling so serious career ending moves at one another. Marco is simply not that man capable of doing that.

    Quake punch to the back of the head of an off guard Akainu and Akainu still got back up and took off half the bitches face, i mean when you see that you know to hurt these guys significantly is not child's play at all.

    I mean you use the rayleigh example as people tagging kizaru, didn't WB do the same thing?

    Squardo tagging WB in that instance is proof of the monster WB was above the rest. That feat doesn't suggest it's anything marco would be capable of.


    He isn't vastly inferior. I like to get ahead of myself sometimes, I apologize if that's what i implied.

    He has flight, not superior mobility that's flamingo on a cloudy day. In marco's case it doesn't help because he still needs to get within brawling range to be of any use. Admirals can attack from virtually any distance and marco's regen has a limit. So he can't just keep tanking attacks they can virtually spam without effort.

    I don't see the admirals walking away holding their sides in pain from defeating marco, nope.
     
  5. HawkEye13 Member

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    - Pheonix >>> Ricecake
    - Fighting all Admirals/BB > fighting G4 luffy
    - Defeat results in getting crowned a Yonko > Defeated by Luffy will result?
    - FM of WB > FM of BM
     
  6. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    No. Katakuri can change his mass at will and is capable of far more melee attacks a second than marco.

    Blackbeard didn't become a yonkou by beating marco, He became a yonkou by beating everyone that stood in his way , gathering military power and acquiring territories
     
  7. DiscoZoro20 Ōka Shichibukai

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    Yeah but Akainu would not have been in solid state. That´s the difference between him and someone like Kizaru. Other than that of course Marco would have been able to kick him away, it´s a testament to Marco´s physical might. Someone with low physical strength couldn´t send you flying all the way down into the city. You keep bringing up that the admirals were unharmed, ignoring that I solely use these scenarios to tell you they would in fact get harmed if Marco used his Zoan transformation to it´s fullest at that point in time.


    What?


    He couldn´t escape. There is no reason at all why Kizaru would attempt to block an attack in a disadvantagous situation. Rayleigh cut him because he was too fast for Kizaru to escape unlike in Whitebeard´s case.


    Again he has hax and mobility and speed over them depending on who you compare him to. The attack power is created by his zoan devil fruit. A point I brought up multiple times and you just refuse to acknowledge for no apparent reason.I´m pretty sure he could tire out the admirals. His regeneration limit is unknown. For all we know it drains him far less than admirals throwing powerful attacks at him. Again Akainu is Akainu and not Aokiji/Kizaru stopy trying to apply his feats to inferior characters.



    No he did not. That´s the point. A first mate can indeed be faster than Whitebeard.

    How does that prove he is a monster? Crocodile was laughing at him. Yes Marco would be capable of that. If you fail to dodge Squardo you´ll also fail to dodge Marco.

    flight creates mobility. Or do you think Marco can just go straight in the air? lol It does help cause he can get out of the way of AOE. Yeah because a zoan user attacking you with talons doesn´t hurt you at all. Come now stop those biased claims. You also have to prove that admirals like Kizaru, Fujitora or Green Bull can fight as long as the fleet admiral candidates Akainu/Aokiji. It´s the repeated flaw in your logic that you give admirals feats they´ve never proven to be capable off.
     
  8. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    But as mentioned if your're airborne there's nothing you can really do.

    If marco kicked kizaru flat on his ass then you'd have a point. Marco forced him down and Kizaru still kept his footing, dude was still standing tall. Forcing somebody down who's already airborne not capable of suspending himself in air is not a testament of strength.



    Whitebeard stopped him just as Rayleigh did. What was the difference?


    I don't see why Marco being in phoenix form doesn't already give him the physical boost they already could deal with. His limit being unknown doesn't matter, He doesn't regenerate fatigue and that's all that really matters, he'll get tired and his regen will run out taking those attacks constantly. He isn't physically stronger so the admirals aren't going to be pushing out any massive effort to try and attack him.


    No Whitebeard was not expecting Squardo to do backstab him, Marco had mentioned that even if WB was not expecting him to he still would have been able to react. That sounds like top of the line reactionary feats to me.
    Basically if WB was the least bit suspicious about Squardo trying to fuck him over he would have reacted but he wasn't.




    That isn't something i have to prove. They're all coming from the same place and had achieved the title of admiral. I think you're flaw is believing that Kizaru is any step lower than Kiji and Akainu.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
  9. Jake CENA BAH GAWD KING, IT'S JAKE CENA!!

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    Wow, so Vista and Marco hit and HURT Akainu?????? Where’s the blood? That shit went through the neck down the collar bone. Why is Akainu still alive??

    :hestonpls

    The damage control continues!
     
  10. DiscoZoro20 Ōka Shichibukai

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    Yet it is still an impressive strength feat from Marco to create that much force. Put Curiel in his place and I´m damn sure his kicks wouldn´t send Kizaru flying that far and with such speed and power.


    That Rayleigh did so successfully even inflicting an injury while Kizaru could dodge Whitebeard without any problem.


    Look at his feet and you know what I´m saying about his phoenix form. I can´t believe I have to explain that for like 4 times now. :/ His limit being unknown does matter cause the burden of proof is on you that Marco´s regeneration would tire out quicker than admirals who constantly have to be on-guard not to take any damage from you.


    Exactly the thing is you are talking about Prime and/or Healthy Whitebeard. I´m talking about sick war Whitebeard who is absolutely slower than Marco as we´ve seen with the Squardo and Kizaru feat.


    It is absolutely something you have to prove. Or are you also going to claim that Shanks can tank as much as Kaido and Big Mom? Or can Hancock suddenly take as much punishment as Doflamingo and Kuma? Also Akainu and Aokiji have more potential they are fleet admiral candidates you can´t compare them to admirals just because they shared that rank at one point. We might as well say Vergo is in the same ballpark as admirals and fleet admirals because they shared that rank at different points in time. Or do you honestly believe just because Akainu can potentially beat Blackbeard, Shanks and Big Mom that Kizaru, FUjitora and Greenbull could as well? I don´t think so.
     
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  11. shintebukuro Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps. That's the flaw to using bounties as an indicator of strength. It could go either way.

    However, Katakuri having a bounty of "1 billion" has been stressed a lot. It's clearly a landmark. And let's not forget Jack was the first introduced with this number. It feels a bit counter intuitive--at this specific juncture of "one billion berries!!"-- for the two characters to debut this level both having inadequate strength-bounty ratios. It would feel like bad timing; why not have things be more straight forward for the big 1 billion breakthrough?

    My intuition is that Marco, Beckmann, and "King" will all have noticeably higher bounties than Jack and Katakuri. Everyone can interpret that how they wish, but I can't help but think strength will play the main role.

    I'm more interested in the relationship they have with their Yonkou captain. Some First Mates seem almost like co-captains (Beckmann, Rayleigh, Zoro) whereas others feel like the strongest of the subordinates (Marco, Katakuri). Whitebeard and Big Mom are much older than their FM's, whereas other pirate crews have the FM as the leader's best and most trusted friend.

    It's not an argument with really solid proof, but it's a dynamic that's worth pointing out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  12. ShiggyDiggyDoo Great!

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    Shit bruh, I'm tripping. I got that twisted up all wrong. :kobeha

    Even still, Onigumo is an experienced enough fighter who got the drop on Marco who's FULL attention was focused on Kizaru, an extremely fearsome opponent, so that's not really a negative moment at all.
     
  13. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    His kick that turned Kizaru into a carpet bomb and the fact that he has g4 like strenght but can heal from attacks probabaly for days. Though ive allways preached that Katakuri was near equals with Marco and could possibly beat him.
     
  14. Emperor Whitebeard Member

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    He has been more impressive overall. Dude straight up kicked through Kizaru's guard after taking his most powerful attack to date. Doesn't matter if he was hurt or not. The Admirals are Admirals because they can take thousands of hits before going down. It would be disappointing for the WG's greatest powers to be seriously injured after ONE kick. Similarly, Garp who is known for his punches only gave Marco a bruise. Aokiji was also sent back flying despite blocking with his ice saber.

    He stopped a bloodlusted Akainu from killing Luffy dead on his tracks, while as Katakuri was pushed back by G4 Luffy who is much weaker than Akainu. Nothing Katakuri has shown come close to what Marco has.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  15. GaaraoftheDesert1 commemorating failure

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    Beckman is obviously the strongest first mate, that being said he would still lose to an admiral.
     
  16. Bernkastel Welcome child of man

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    He has the one of the strongest DFs out there,was hyped by the Gorosei,survived a war with BB even though they had a much weaker crew than the oposition,fought the admirals in MF who are on the same level as the yonkou and did well.
    Katakuri on the other hand has only fought Luffy so far.
    He lacks in feats compared to Marco just like everyone else in the series that's not an admiral/yonkou,Garp,Mihawk etc.
     
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