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What was the moment when Naruto the story starting going down hill for you?

ЯƎWO⅃ᖷ

Well-Known Member
everything with pein

what purpose did he serve? how did he add to the story?

i thought he was the final villain, and then tobi was the final villain, and then madara was the final villain, and then kaguya? i'm sure i'm missing someone but all of that was tiresome.
 

Raiken

Cryorex
Start of the War. I still loved it during the Kage Summit Arc.

I just dont feel like Kishi quite nailed the feeling of a war. It had some great moments like... but the quality had dipped.

And Boruto Manga is okay... but even worse than the War.
 
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Firo

Well-Known Member

I refuse to watch any material in the Naruto franchise that canonically takes place after this scene.

Kishimoto is a garbage writer, sorry Naruto fanboys.
Zetsu no diffing that delusional fool was :bury
 

Fused

The Absolute God
Zetsu no diffing that delusional fool was :bury
No, it was garbage/insulting writing. There will never be a time when this ending isn't considered garbage.

Madara was dumbed down so that this black pool of poop could betray him, in truth Madara should have easily realized that Black Zetsu wasn't a part of him. Madara was arrogant and prideful, but he was not stupid nor careless. If Kishimoto respected his character, he would have realized what Zetsu was up to.

It also made the entire War arc a waste of time, since Madara (antagonist who had been built up for 100 chapters) was replaced by some no-name toaster.
 

Firo

Well-Known Member
No, it was garbage/insulting writing. There will never be a time when this ending isn't considered garbage.

Madara was dumbed down so that this black pool of poop could betray him, in truth Madara should have easily realized that Black Zetsu wasn't a part of him. Madara was arrogant and prideful, but he was not stupid nor careless. If Kishimoto respected his character, he would have realized what Zetsu was up to.

It also made the entire War arc a waste of time, since Madara (antagonist who had been built up for 100 chapters) was replaced by some no-name toaster.
Madara was also hot garbage so it evens out. :cantrustleme
 

Fused

The Absolute God
Madara >>>>> Pain (Pre-Talk no jutsu) >>>>>>>>>>>>> All other Villains

The problem with this manga is that all villains are either:

- Bland pure evil villains with generic motivations;
- Morally grey villains who turn into bland pure good heroes because a 10 yo old talked to them.

Most villains fall into the first category, then we have Pain (Post-Talk no jutsu), Itachi, SimpBito who fall into the second category.

Thus that's why Uchiha Madara is the best villain in Naruto by far. He's morally grey and has actual motivations and an ideology, and at the same time he doesn't let anyone tell him he's wrong, making him badass.

Madara was awesome, but I still maintain that the two best villains were Itachi, before he was revealed to be good, and Orochimaru, before he became a pathetic shall of his original self.
Notice how you think that both these people were ruined by the writer. Itachi ruined because he was revealed to be a pacifist, Orochimaru ruined because he turned into a neutered good guy.
 

Kazekage Gaara

Kazekage
Pain arc was the best Naruto arc ever for me except for the end. It is a sin for a writer to revive his/her dead characters. Either don't kill them or kill a few but not the most important ones if you're too afraid (like Kakashi). Imagine if Game of Thrones found a way to revive its characters. Not the best example since this is a Shonen, but you get my gist. It's anti-climatic and kills whatever happened before that.

Other than that, that period of Naruto had absolutely everything. Jiraiya vs Pain, Pain as an epic character and villain (still one of my favorites out of all movies and tv shows), Itachi vs Sasuke, Naruto getting Sage Mode which finally made him worthy of being the main character, epic Jiraiya story, etc.

Kage Summit arc had its good moments but overall it didn't really do much for me. It was cool to finally see the other Kages, but I hated what they did to Sasuke as a character. When he was first shown in Shippuden he was this cool, collected, dark, and strong character who just wanted to get his revenge, even saying that he would allow Orochimaru to take his body if that would mean that Itachi would die. He was calculated and calm and always analyzed his opponents (his battles with Deidara and Itachi prove it).

However, in the Kage Summit arc, he was this impulsive, emotional wreck, evil little shit who just attacked on sight without even thinking about a strategy. And to top it all off, someone always had to save his ass. He should have died at least 3 times there. Now, I know that it was meant for his character development, etc., but it just felt too sudden. He learns the truth about Itachi, and instead of going with his wish to protect Konoha, he decides to do the opposite and destroy it - wtf? You're mad that your brother had to make that sacrifice, but he made it FOR the village and wanted YOU to protect it. Yet you say: Fuck it, I'm gonna kill everyone.

It sort of felt like Daenerys going apeshit in the span of one episode literally in season 8. No build-up whatsoever. And then he had yet another change of heart and suddenly wants to be a Hokage. Kishi really wrecked Sasuke as a character. Butchered him. And in Boruto, it's not getting any better, he is getting an even worse treatment.

The war arc also had its good moments but overall failed to deliver. Too many plotholes and asspulls and too many irrelevant edo characters. I was especially mad about Oro suddenly knowing how to summon the Death God and get all the Hokages? What the fuck? Where was this earlier? Why wasn't it even mentioned a little bit? Why didn't he get his arms earlier then? Did he forget? That was such bullshit that I facepalmed so hard.

Of the earlier arcs, I'd say that Kazekage arc was okayish, but nothing too special. We got introduced to new Akatsuki members and found out some new stuff about Bijuu's and Akatsuki's goals. I didn't like how Gaara was revived even though he is my boy.

Sai Arc was boring as fuck until the Kyuubi vs Oro fight and Sasuke cameo. I hated Sai as a character. He was boring as fuck, arrogant, and not even that particularly strong. You had a Sasuke cameo which was the perfect way to get a mini Sasuke vs Naruto fight to show their growth (especially Sasuke's). But Kishi decided to give Naruto a handicap because he transformed into a fourth tails Kyuubi. And Sasuke absolutely wrecked him. I get it, Kishi wanted to give Naruto more motivation for training and wanted to show just how OP Sasuke got. But he shat on Naruto as a character immediately. His time skip training was ridiculous. He learned absolutely nothing except for a bigger Rasengan which he used only once.

The Immortal arc was awesome but felt a bit rushed. I'd say it was the second-best arc in Shippuden. I like it from the beginning to the end. Hidan and Kakuzu were awesome, Asuma's death was sad and it was essential for Team 10 and their growth. Naruto was learning an insane OP jutsu, and Shikamaru was badass as always. I really liked everything.

In the end, the final verdict from me and the best part of Naruto is after Sasuke kills Oro and up until Nagato revives everyone. The story at that time was insanely good for me.
 

dergeist

Well-Known Member
When they introduced SM (power dampner collar) for Base :bury Jman, it took him from somebody who could solo Juubito and Urushiki to somebody who could get solod by Asura path:gglife

Also, SM in general, it made no real sense. As manifestations of nature is wood release, so should be the only real SM. And tailed beasts are supposed to be masses of natural chakra, so their hosts should have their unique abilities and when using the chakra be in a sage state. That would've made more sense for it. Even then it was somewhat tolerable. However, Soysuke of the FKS arc, and WA KCM mode, unlimited chakra battery etc was the worse.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Thus that's why Uchiha Madara is the best villain in Naruto by far. He's morally grey and has actual motivations and an ideology, and at the same time he doesn't let anyone tell him he's wrong, making him badass.
He's not grey though. He's pitch black. Self absorbed, ruthless, war mongering, petty, sexist, malicious and insane.
 

Kazekage Gaara

Kazekage
When they introduced SM (power dampner collar) for Base :bury Jman, it took him from somebody who could solo Juubito and Urushiki to somebody who could get solod by Asura path:gglife

Also, SM in general, it made no real sense. As manifestations of nature is wood release, so should be the only real SM. And tailed beasts are supposed to be masses of natural chakra, so their hosts should have their unique abilities and when using the chakra be in a sage state. That would've made more sense for it. Even then it was somewhat tolerable. However, Soysuke of the FKS arc, and WA KCM mode, unlimited chakra battery etc was the worse.

I think SM is where Kishi should have drawn a line (no pun intended) regarding power levels. He should have made it the top power to receive and never go beyond it. Rinnegan, EMS, Sage Mode. That's it. But not with everything. I would like it to be limited, sort of like you said. Wood SM, Frog SM, Snake SM, and that's it.

I personally didn't have a problem with it. It could not be used by anyone, and even if you did have the chakra capacity and other needed things to obtain it, you would still have to train hard to actually be able to use it. Even Naruto wouldn't be able to if he didn't think of clones. And he seemed to have a natural talent for it.

His other powerups after SM are not nearly as cool because he either had help getting them or he was the child of prophecy and just got them because fuck hard work.
 

Fused

The Absolute God
He's not grey though. He's pitch black. Self absorbed, ruthless, war mongering, petty, sexist, malicious and insane.
False, he's morally grey, that's because despite all his flaws Madara genuinely thought he was helping mankind and doing the right thing.

Hashirama even said that, despite everything, Madara fundamentally remained a kind man:

 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
False, he's morally grey, that's because despite all his flaws Madara genuinely thought he was helping mankind and doing the right thing.

Hashirama even said that, despite everything, Madara fundamentally remained a kind man:

Hashirama aint really the best source on that one. Madara thinking he's helping mankind is just Madara wanting to satisfy and justify his god complex. He doesn't give a hoot about anyone except himself and his brother who's long since dead. All he wants is not to be remembered as a loser. That's the point behind subjugating the entire world rather than good intentions.
 

dergeist

Well-Known Member
False, he's morally grey, that's because despite all his flaws Madara genuinely thought he was helping mankind and doing the right thing.

Hashirama even said that, despite everything, Madara fundamentally remained a kind man:


He's got a h8 boner for the Uchiha, I wouldn't waste my time, tbh.
 

Raiha

Active Member


It's like saying Tonton is your favorite Senju.
P.S. this is a joke, feel free to like/hate whomever you want.
 

blk

Well-Known Member
Pain arc was the best Naruto arc ever for me except for the end. It is a sin for a writer to revive his/her dead characters. Either don't kill them or kill a few but not the most important ones if you're too afraid (like Kakashi). Imagine if Game of Thrones found a way to revive its characters. Not the best example since this is a Shonen, but you get my gist. It's anti-climatic and kills whatever happened before that.

Other than that, that period of Naruto had absolutely everything. Jiraiya vs Pain, Pain as an epic character and villain (still one of my favorites out of all movies and tv shows), Itachi vs Sasuke, Naruto getting Sage Mode which finally made him worthy of being the main character, epic Jiraiya story, etc.

Kage Summit arc had its good moments but overall it didn't really do much for me. It was cool to finally see the other Kages, but I hated what they did to Sasuke as a character. When he was first shown in Shippuden he was this cool, collected, dark, and strong character who just wanted to get his revenge, even saying that he would allow Orochimaru to take his body if that would mean that Itachi would die. He was calculated and calm and always analyzed his opponents (his battles with Deidara and Itachi prove it).

However, in the Kage Summit arc, he was this impulsive, emotional wreck, evil little shit who just attacked on sight without even thinking about a strategy. And to top it all off, someone always had to save his ass. He should have died at least 3 times there. Now, I know that it was meant for his character development, etc., but it just felt too sudden. He learns the truth about Itachi, and instead of going with his wish to protect Konoha, he decides to do the opposite and destroy it - wtf? You're mad that your brother had to make that sacrifice, but he made it FOR the village and wanted YOU to protect it. Yet you say: Fuck it, I'm gonna kill everyone.

It sort of felt like Daenerys going apeshit in the span of one episode literally in season 8. No build-up whatsoever. And then he had yet another change of heart and suddenly wants to be a Hokage. Kishi really wrecked Sasuke as a character. Butchered him. And in Boruto, it's not getting any better, he is getting an even worse treatment.

The war arc also had its good moments but overall failed to deliver. Too many plotholes and asspulls and too many irrelevant edo characters. I was especially mad about Oro suddenly knowing how to summon the Death God and get all the Hokages? What the fuck? Where was this earlier? Why wasn't it even mentioned a little bit? Why didn't he get his arms earlier then? Did he forget? That was such bullshit that I facepalmed so hard.

Of the earlier arcs, I'd say that Kazekage arc was okayish, but nothing too special. We got introduced to new Akatsuki members and found out some new stuff about Bijuu's and Akatsuki's goals. I didn't like how Gaara was revived even though he is my boy.

Sai Arc was boring as fuck until the Kyuubi vs Oro fight and Sasuke cameo. I hated Sai as a character. He was boring as fuck, arrogant, and not even that particularly strong. You had a Sasuke cameo which was the perfect way to get a mini Sasuke vs Naruto fight to show their growth (especially Sasuke's). But Kishi decided to give Naruto a handicap because he transformed into a fourth tails Kyuubi. And Sasuke absolutely wrecked him. I get it, Kishi wanted to give Naruto more motivation for training and wanted to show just how OP Sasuke got. But he shat on Naruto as a character immediately. His time skip training was ridiculous. He learned absolutely nothing except for a bigger Rasengan which he used only once.

The Immortal arc was awesome but felt a bit rushed. I'd say it was the second-best arc in Shippuden. I like it from the beginning to the end. Hidan and Kakuzu were awesome, Asuma's death was sad and it was essential for Team 10 and their growth. Naruto was learning an insane OP jutsu, and Shikamaru was badass as always. I really liked everything.

In the end, the final verdict from me and the best part of Naruto is after Sasuke kills Oro and up until Nagato revives everyone. The story at that time was insanely good for me.

Completely agree with this.

Imo Chunin Arc in P1 and the arcs that go from (included) Oro's death to Nagato's death (fight with Deidara, Itachi search, Jman vs. Pain, Sasuke vs Itachi, Sasuke vs Bee, Pain vs Konoha, Naruto vs Pain) are peak Naruto manga.
And also some of Shonen's best in general.

The art was at its best, the story was immersive, all the involved characters got great development (or deaths) and the pacing was just right.

The revival of Konoha's Shinobi was lame but ultimately could be "forgiven" given the quality of the arc overall.


Then for some reason Kishi started going downhill from FKS (Sasuke & Naruto to me felt like different characters, also the prophecy /chosen ones bs, etc).

The WA wasn't as bad as FKS imo but not great either.
It had ups and downs since it is also such a massive arc.
 

Final Fantasy

Well-Known Member
The Sasuke vs Itachi fight. Kishi completely destroyed Itachi. Battlewise he needed MS to beat Sasuke, even though he had 5 years more time to train (if he wanted to). His showing was horrible in that battle. He needed Tobi to beat the Uchiha clan. His backstory wasn't thought through apparently, as it doesn't make sense. The mystery behind the Uchiha clan massacre was unsatisfying when revealed.
 
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Hydro Spiral

Well-Known Member
Aliens. Honest to God :skully

I did like the Sage of Six Paths as a vague historical "founder" of modern shinobi, and even the idea that Naruto was like his spiritual successor or something. But the last few volumes and now Boruto started to explain everything with this attempt at sci-fi. The sage wasn't just some wise old heroic entity from ancient times, but an actual half-alien dude whose mother came from outer space. Chakra isn't just like mana or chi, but comes from a forbidden fruit that the aliens are apparently harvesting? :headscratIt all kinda felt sudden and shoved in.
 

Raiha

Active Member
Aliens. Honest to God :skully

I did like the Sage of Six Paths as a vague historical "founder" of modern shinobi, and even the idea that Naruto was like his spiritual successor or something. But the last few volumes and now Boruto started to explain everything with this attempt at sci-fi. The sage wasn't just some wise old heroic entity from ancient times, but an actual half-alien dude whose mother came from outer space. Chakra isn't just like mana or chi, but comes from a forbidden fruit that the aliens are apparently harvesting? :headscratIt all kinda felt sudden and shoved in.

Immediately thought about this when I read your post.
 
Yes that part was so cringe worthy it was hard to watch. Naruto truly doesnt have a brain cell outside of combat and his mancrush for saspuke is unreal.

For me it was the start of shippuden. Jiriayahs training didnt show anything besides a bigger rasengan which he used what once? Naruto constantly broke formation to save mancrush number 2 gaara, no discipline as a ninja. Then he straight up bitches out and chases daedera because he got mad.

Yes this all can be explained by the 9 tails being hard to control but it was still cringe as fuck and difficult to watch.

There are so many but thats when the series started going downhill for me.
 
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