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What was the point of retconning Bardock's TV special for the objectively inferior minus?

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by Montanz, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. Montanz

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  2. Gordo solos

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  3. Claudio Swiss

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    Alzheimer's
     
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  4. Fang

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    Money.
     
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  5. MShadows Moderator

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  6. Karma

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    Im pretty sure he doesnt even know the special exists and if he does then hes never watched it.
     
  7. Claudio Swiss

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    He did she admitted he liked to the point he included bardock design from the special in the manga
     
  8. Gordo solos

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    He liked the special enough to put Bardock in the manga for like two panels

     
  9. Karma

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    That was back in 90s, im talking about right now. (Technically 2013 since thats when he wrote it)
     
  10. Pilaf

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    His thought process didn't extend far beyond "I'm finishing this Jaco thing and people liked the Battle of Gods, so here's some Dragonball stuff."
     
  11. Mabel Gleeful

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    Toriyama probably always liked a more heroic Bardock than the bloodlusted warrior of the TV special. He enjoyed it, but he most likely still envisioned a more heroic, though still rebellious and fight ready Bardock.

    Another reason, and this one is even more obvious, is that the special doesn't include Goku's mother, so he probably wanted to show who Goku's mother was, which should be something that is partly responsible on fans as several of them always asked who Goku's mother was.
     
  12. Juub

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    Then why was he complaining about a heroic Goku.
     
  13. Mabel Gleeful

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    His Goku isn't the same blood knight as TV Bardock, though. Goku likes to fight, but he doesn't like to kill like Bardock does and would never invade and exterminate whole planets like his father, meaning that it isn't that inconsistent to want a more heroic Bardock.
     
  14. NO

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    Point is obvious, why haven't you guys figured this out?

    We know about the Bardock-Goku prologue story very well. We've seen Frieza destroy that planet in that iconic scene millions of times.

    Toriyama is not in the business of giving us a carbon copy of exactly what happened. He wants to shake things up, give us something new, get us excited. The general myth/story of that prologue stays the same, but the specifics are slightly changed and reimagined to account for the Broly narrative and to give the fans something they haven't seen before.

    It's just a new way to give us a story we already knew very well. If you want the original, you have it (buy the Bardock special) - but this is not the original, this is the Broly movie.

    There comes a point when the fandom needs to stop worrying about how canon and consistent small details are. That is not what is important for the franchise or for a spinoff movie like Broly.
     
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  15. Juub

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    These are pretty big details though.

    It’s also pretty easy to give fresh stuff without contradicting the established canon.
     
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  16. El Hit

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    At least this bardock is not dodoria's bitch.
     
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  17. Xhominid

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    Because a Heroic Goku isn't how he envisioned Bardock because Bardock isn't his actual creation... it's TOEI's... just like Broly wasn't his and thus like Bardock, he wants to make a spin on it based on his own way of making the character?

    It's funny because people are bitching at Toriyama making Bardock's backstory worse is the same people sucking his jock that he will do Broly better... and yes I know you can only go up with Broly but it just ironic.
     
  18. Roman

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    The problem with this argument is simple. Toriyama included Bardock from The TV special in his manga, effectively declaring the special canon. However he envisioned Goku's father before Bardock was ever created, the fact is he liked the first portrayal for Bardock enough to say "yeah I'll go with that, THAT is Goku's dad."

    So whatever he initially thought Goku's dad was like at first, it doesn't matter because he decided Bardock was Goku's dad. This more heroic take on him is more likely a recent interpretation of Bardock due to Toriyama completely forgetting the TV special even exists. Remember, this is the guy that forgot SSJ2 even exists.
     
  19. Xhominid

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    That may be true but the main thing is that while he liked his appearance, he may have ultimately wanted to have his own spin on the story along with a new origin for the Saiyans(or, simply better stated, he saw a better origin for the Saiyans that made them more well-rounded than evil pirates that they are in the canon). So he simply saw fit to completely retcon the origin story since... well, it made the Saiyans into only being blood thirsty pirates and just that.

    Honestly while I do have my issues with Dragonball Minus, the Saiyans being more than just bloodthirsty pirates is something I liked since I find it dumb that they are just a planet of hats with ONLY a capability of fighting and nothing else or any random dissenters or elsewise(I mean as dumb as the Ocean Dub was to say Bardock was a Scientist... it's kinda odd that there was no Scientists when the new canon for Saiyan birth actually makes alot of sense since Female Saiyans wouldn't let birthing get in the way of kicking ass but it would require SOMETHING for them to even concoct that stuff)
     
  20. Roman

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    It wasn't just for his appearance. Toriyama actually said he liked Bardock's character when he saw the TV special. Him being included in the manga exactly as he appeared in the special should be indication of that. If he had a different view of Bardock from the start, Bardock would've had the same appearance in the manga as he did in Minus, but that's clearly not the case.
     
  21. Xhominid

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    Except that I still stated that he wanted to retcon the origins of Saiyans to make them more unique than just being single minded cavemen. He actually never really trampled on Bardock's core character trait past him not being too much of a typical Saiyan ass(who still wiped out planets full of living beings on it for Frieza and their own gain).
     
  22. ~VK~

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    That's exactly what made them more unique but ok.

    I guess slightly edgier Jor-el is much better.
     
  23. Mabel Gleeful

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    Toriyama only included one panel based on the special without elaborating on what happened before or what Bardock's personality was. It did not mean that the whole of the special is what actually occurred before, and from that one single panel it's hard to tell Bardock's personality other than someone willing to fight Freeza.
     
  24. Xhominid

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    Not really. There was plenty of planets like Saiyans in comic books and other media where they was practically Chaotic Evil to the core.
    Toriyama simply made them less like that. And again it's not like Bardock suddenly became Jor-El lite, he was still a mass murderer with the only difference is that he had a wife that was part of the Saiyan culture was a complete outcast(she ISN'T a mass murdering warrior) who actually gave a shit about his family so to speak(and to be fair, I find it dumber that while the low tier Saiyans like Goku don't give a damn about their families, apparently the Royal Family Saiyans are completely different and do... despite King Vegeta never acting the sort to Vegeta at all).
     
  25. Kishido

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    Why no one cries that Episode of Bardock isn't canon as well LOL

    And as stated above the only panel which matters aka Bardock vs Freeza last stand can still happen
     
  26. Suigetsu

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    senility


    That can be argued, pannels featuring things from the special are in the manga. Which is canon over any movie that comes out etc.
     
  27. Kishido

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    Exactly one... Aka last stand of Bardock.

    A scene which still can be with Minus or not.
     
  28. Suigetsu

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    No, if you pay attention in the trailer, you can see there is no bardock attacking or last stand. Therefore minus enters in conflict with the actual DB manga.
     
  29. Mabel Gleeful

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    Because the trailer cuts immediately to when the Death Ball is closer to the planet, leaving enough space for Bardock's sacrifice, which they obviously don't want to spoil (I mean, we already know how Bardock died, but you still want to see how they animate it for this movie in theatres rather than in a trailer; I also believe this omission is intentional to generate discussion, though that would be giving Toei too much credit).
     
  30. Suigetsu

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    Do you think they will listen to the people backlash? Bardock special is quite beloved and lets be realistic here, People is upset.
     
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