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When did Naruto surpass Alive Minato?

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Shark, Jul 2, 2018.

When did Naruto surpass his father?

  1. Pain arc

    8.8%
  2. KCM

    44.1%
  3. Kurama co-op/Bijū mode

    41.2%
  4. Rikūdo Naruto

    5.9%
  1. Shark 鮫仙

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    As in Minato without KCM and BM.

    :hm
     
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  2. Mindovin Well-Known Member

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    In what?
    Overall firepower?
    Chakra control?
    If they fight to the death which Naruto win
    or something like that. You should be more specific.
     
  3. WorldsStrongest Son of the Sun God

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    BM

    Id still put Base Minato on the same general level as KCM if not higher

    So its definitely nothing prior to that
     
  4. Bonly Genjutsu Master

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    Once he got Bijuu Mode
     
  5. Android 3:16

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    KCM.

    Of course, surpassing a character in overall standing and beating them in a direct fight are two different things.
     
  6. The_Conqueror Well-Known Member

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  7. BlackHeartedImp Well-Known Member

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    Leaning towards KCM. Naruto isn't sushstantially slower in that mode and he has heaps more firepower (though Minato is a lot more intelligent a fighter and has space/time barriers capable of redirecting a bijuu Dama). It's a hard choice, on second thought.

    Minato was a monster narratively and by feats when he showed up in the story.
     
  8. Hussain Well-Known Member

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    BM, most likely.
     
  9. MShadows Deathbat Moderator

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    When he got BM.

    It was later revealed during the war that Minato could use Sage Mode as well all along so not even KCM should be enough.
     
  10. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    It was originally during the Pain arc going by Fukasaku and Bee's statements but then it seemed like Kishi decided to take a different route.

    KCM just to be safe.
     
  11. The Death & The Strawberry Better Dayz

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    KCM
     
  12. Djomla Student

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    Maybe they were referring to SM. Pa was training him in senjutsu and at that point his Sage Mode was better than both Jman's and Minato's.
     
  13. Eliyua23 Well-Known Member

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    When he learned that jutsu and was able to use the chakra transfer
     
  14. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Pa already stated that Naruto had done that when they were at Mount Myoboku so I don't think that's what it was. It also wouldn't explain Bee saying Sasuke was the toughest opponent he ever fought.
     
  15. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Pain Arc, as per the manga. Otherwise there'd be no need to bring Minato back stronger. When Naruto got KCM, he didn't feel he needed to be stronger than Minato.
     
  16. Turrin 玄武

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    Naruto didn't surpass Minato until he mastered BM, being able to use Sage-Mode alongside it and "That Jutsu". Until that moment Minato was still ahead of him or equivalent. In terms of performance in the manga Minato continued to out perform equal or better then Naruto in every situation up until that point.

    People can cite the much greater Raw-Power Naruto had prior to that as a reason he's above Minato, but the greatest amount of raw power Naruto ever had prior to mastering BM, was 50% Kurama's power. Minato had already overcome 50% Demon-Fox's power before, In-fact the entire reason Naruto has 50% of the Fox's power is because Minato sealed that power into him with the Hakke Fuuin in the first place. Yes he had Kushina's help, but he was also up against 100% Kurama and he was exhausted from fighting Obito previously / protecting the village; it's even implied he could have contained Kurama on his own if had more chakra left or wouldn't have even needed to if he didn't have to consider the safety of the village. We have also directly seen Minato contended with abilities greater then BM Naruto's. We've also seen Minato deal with greater raw power then BM-Naruto's, deflecting TBB from 100% Kurama and even the Juubi w/o issue.

    And until the point of mastering BM, Minato was consistently performing as well or better then Naruto. Against Ei Naruto struggled to eventually perform as well as Minato, though maybe not even because Naruto only outsped Ei once, while Minato did it twice. He struggled the whole time to counter Obito's Kamui, ultimately needing Kakashi's help, while Minato did it on his own. He was about to be obliterated by Juubi's TTB, when Minato stepped in and casually saved him. It really wasn't until Naruto mastered BM, that he started out performing Minato, and since all along the plot indicated that Minato's whole goal for sealing the fox into Naruto was so Naruto would use it's power to surpass him to face the future threats learning "That Jutsu", this makes sense plot wise to be the point where Naruto surpasses him too.

    I'm absolutely certain that Pa only meant Naruto surpassed Minato in Senjutsu (not overall in the Pain fight). I get why it's confused so many people, because Kishimoto intentionally made it ambiguous whether Pa was referring to Senjutsu or overall strength in the Pain fight, and this is only clarified later on in the Manga when we see Minato is much > SM-Naruto, and has his own SM, which Pa was in hindsight clearly referring to.

    First Pa never said Naruto surpassed Minato in Senjutsu on Myoboku, only Jiraiya. And this makes sense, Naruto had indeed surpassed Jiraiya, but would not surpass Minato until the Pain fight.

    Minato was able to balance all three energies perfectly, while Jiriaya could not. The scene where Naruto stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Myoboku, was when he also manages to perfectly balance all three energies. But he has not yet surpassed Minato who can also accomplish this feat.

    Minato's weakness in Sage-Mode, is the same weakness that all the Toad-Sages have which Naruto overcame. He has to stand still to gather natural energy which is very difficult in battle. If you don't stand still and gather energy long enough you can only enter the mode briefly as we saw Minato's incredibly brief usage of Senjutsu against Juubito. Jiraiya overcame this weakness by utilizing the Toad-Fusion technique; we don't know if Minato ever learned this technique or employed it, but we can see why this method would clash with Minato's style.

    Jiriaya's method takes a time in battle as well, requiring him to stand still initially and then perform the summoning of Ma/Pa into his body. Minato is mostly a speed based fighter centered around using FTG to catch his enemies off guard. Him giving the enemy time to set up while he sets up his own Sage-Mode, really isn't his style, nor is it necessary for him to defeat most enemies, as most enemies in the series can be defeated by Minato's Rasengan Attacks w/o requiring a need for the extra fire-power; and if more fire-power is needed a high speed combo of attacks, like it's implied Minato uses Rasen-Flash Dance for, is probably easier and more effective to execute then Sage-Mode. So despite the fact that in the NBD where we match every characters against every other we can see instances where Sage-Mode would be useful, those instances probably rarely came up in Minato's actual life, with him mostly facing enemies who could be taken down by Rasengan Attacks or ones that extra fire power of Sage Mode wouldn't be enough and required Fuuinjutsu anyway (like the Demon-Fox).

    But Naruto not having that style of Minato's and w/ fusion off the table, he was forced to learn the clone method. It's at the point where he learns the clone method that he surpasses Minato as a Sage, because he's able to gather natural energy while still fighting in battle, something Minato could not do.

    In-fact this is exactly the same way Naruto surpasses Minato in Rasengan, utilizing clones to multi-task. And guess what Kakashi says the same thing about Naruto surpassing his predecessors after Naruto learns FRS, w/ the same Shadow of Minato appearing. Given the similarity of these two things and the scenes themselves, it's very clear that both Pa and Kakashi are referencing Naruto surpassing Minato in specific Techniques, not overall.

    And this also fits with leading up to Naruto ultimately surpassing Minato overall after mastering BM. Because like I said the entire point of Minato sealing the Kyuubi's Chakra into Naruto was so he could master it and become stronger then him. Using the greater chakra supply it granted him to be able to do things like use multiple clones more freely to master Rasengan and Sage-Mode more then Minato, are merely the first expressions of that, which culminate in Naruto eventual mastery of BM, which allows him to completely surpass Minato overall.
     
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  17. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Just sayin' Naruto didn't surpass Hashirama, Hashirama was brought as we was... actually brought back weaker as he was that strong.
    Manga said Naruto surpassed Minato after he got SM, the manga proceeds to bring back Minato stronger than he was alive.
     
  18. MawDezrtarsh22 Read my name....slowly

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    Post Kurama cooperation imo
     
  19. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Fukasaku also noted that Naruto was able to create more Sage Chakra before stating that he had surpassed Jiraiya. That would mean he was better than the guy who could only make enough for a single Rasengan, too. Minato had more than that amount of time to start charging Sage Mode because he didn't move until after the talking was over, so it wasn't just that he didn't spend enough time on it it was that he had already done what he could.

    Pa would have already known that Naruto had surpassed Minato in Sage Mode and there's still the issue of Bee stating that Sasuke was the toughest opponent he had ever fought.
     
  20. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Though we have different stances overall (I believe Minato was surpassed in the Pain arc), I do agree with your reasoning.

    With Bee, there could be the case of Sasuke was the toughest in that he's the only guy he faced who was able to make his Bijuu power irrelevant (Amaterasu). Minato never did that, the last time he clashed with Bee, Bee was ready to counter Minato.

    So it works.
     
  21. Itachiisinvincible Well-Known Member

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    I'd say KCM for overall stats. More Chakra, more power, more stamina, more Rasengan variants, FRS variants, etc. Only things Minato has him beat in are intelligence and speed.
     
  22. Turrin 玄武

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    1. Minato didn't have time, they were all reacting to Obito starting to walk towards Madara.

    2. Naruto could mold more Sage-Chakra then Jiriaya because, he could balances the three energies perfectly (Same as Minato), while Jiriaya was losing out on some because he couldn't; it's the same principal as Chakra Control

    3. For the B line keep in mind there is a major point of discussion there based on the translation. Because

    "今までやった奴らの中でも、あの写輪眼は一・二を争うぐらい強かったからな。

    here's the japa text. says that - "because up to now, amoung all the guys i've fought, that sharingan was about one of the strongest i've fought".

    Sasuke being "one of the strongest" is different then Sasuke being "the strongest". I haven't looked at the line myself in awhile, but i'm pretty sure the closer translation to actual Japanese is "one of the strongest".

    Additionally I could also see it being debated whether B considers that interaction in the flashback a fight between him and Minato at all; all he did was save Ei and then hold up his sword, at which point Minato backed off and avoided a real fight with B (and Kumo back up). So there's this to consider too.

    And even if B does consider that a fight or there were other fights, I find it absolutely silly to believe at any point Sasuke w/o even mastering Mangekyo was ever suppose to be stronger then Minato. So more likely the retecon would have been that B fought Minato in the past, not Minato's strength. Like Kishi may have not planned out the flashback scene of E + B vs Minato at the point where B made that statement.
     
  23. hbcaptain Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point, the same way B.Zetsu didn't even knew about Susano'o's existence during the Itachi/Sasuke fight according to his reactions and statements, which is ridiculous giving the fact he watched over Ashura&Indra, Madara&Indra and all Uchiha clan history since the beginning.

    In other words, a lot of things changed since then.

    Also, yeah your translation about Bee's statement makes a lot more sens than Viz's.
     
  24. FlamingRain Living Legend Moderator

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    Yes he did. From Madara first asking why Zetsu was still clinging to Obito, to Zetsu trying and failing to pry himself loose, to Kakashi and Gaara starting to move before Kakashi decides to stop Gaara, to Obito and Madara conversing again, to Kakashi once again telling Gaara to get ready, to Madara finally finishing up his talk and then to Obito once again starting to move Minato stood in place. That's more time than what Naruto used to enter the mode with even more Sage Chakra than he had when he was lifting huge statues and still maintaining the transformation.

    Being able to make more is what results in Sage Mode lasting longer. It was known before they even tried to fuse that Naruto could maintain Sage Mode for five minutes, and it wasn't upon recharging with a clone that Fukasaku said Naruto had surpassed his predecessors but rather upon tearing apart Asura Pain with one attack. It was never about the duration of the mode so if that's what separates Naruto and Minato's Fukasaku wasn't talking about surpassing Minato in regards to the use of Sage Mode alone, as should already be clear from the fact that Jiraiya was present as well.

    You just have to look at it from a narrative standpoint. SM Naruto is equivalent to MS Sasuke narratively speaking, and what prompted Bee's statement was the power of Sasuke's MS. Whether Sasuke was still learning to control it or not (and Bee would have been too preoccupied to notice Sasuke's strain) Bee had just gotten a glimpse of what kind of fighter Sasuke was turning into with the MS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  25. Alita54 Alita>You

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    SM Naruto beats him imo by outlasting him since minato has nothing in base to put Naruto down with.
     
  26. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    For those who actually believe MS and SM surpassed Minato and Itachi: you guys really think CM and EMS had no benchmarks?

    Each major power development in the original manga surpassed a heavily implied benchmark. Benchmarks measured these growths.
     
  27. goombanthime well-known member

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    The Sage frog straight up said that he surpassed him in the Pain arc, and they would know as they trained Minato since he has sage mode
     
  28. Kai R I N N I N G Retired Staff

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    He surpassed two completely different shinobi in senjutsu arts. Surpassing two shinobi benchmarks simultaneously in overall strength given these contexts is highly unlikely.
     
  29. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    If you want to talk about benchmarks:

    MS = Itachi
    SM = Minato

    You can even throw in Oro and Jiraiya there too.

    Benchmarks for Kurama Naruto (KCM, BM) and EMS Sasuke:

    Kurama's power = Hashirama
    EMS = Madara

    Those ninja were even cited when Naruto and Sasuke were fighting Obito.
     
  30. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    As @FlamingRain has repeated multiple times, Fukasaku already directly referenced Naruto surpassing Jiraiya in the Sage Arts when Naruto actually achieved SM. Since we learnt Minato's Sage Arts is worse than Jiraiya's, that automatically includes Minato in that too.
    That context was explicitly clear in citing the Senjutsu point.

    Naruto surpassing Minato and Jiraiya overall was made especially clear with the context with 3 people seeing the images behind Naruto and one guy literally saying "Naruto surpassed those that came before him". You can't get clearer than that, especially when you consider the Sage Arts remark was made before.

    Prior to this, the damage control was "they meant surpassed Jiraiya in SM and Minato in Rasengan"... before Fukasaku knew FRS was a thing. That's as bad as dismissing Itachi saying the only reason Sasuke won't beat him is due to lacking the MS because he was lying.

    :zaheer
     
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