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Why didn't sasuke just copy element manipulation?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by FFz, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. FFz

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    This prob has been posted already and discussed to death, but we learned from Kakashi that Sasuke had to learn element manipulation to learn the chidori. If the sharingan can copy jutsus just by seeing them performed then wtf why did kakashi waste all that time during the precious month that they have to get sasuke to learn element manipulation when he could have just copied it. Then maybe learn it later?

    Maybe the sharingan isn't all that great.
     
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  2. ♠Mr.Nibbles♠

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    That month was used to get Sasuke Taijutsu up so when he copied he can use it effectively. Chidori requires a high level of taijutsu and without the
    3rd tomoe in the sharigan Sasuke wouldn't be able to control it. That's all
     
  3. Captain Gir

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    and plus...even things take time to learn, true that the sharingan can copy it, but also it could have taken that whole time to increse sasukes chakra as well as learn it [chidori] up to its full potential. there is a big difference between sasuke and kakashi. question is how long did it take kakashi to learn resengan??
     
  4. Splintered

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    It's probably not as easy as just being able to copy. It analyzes it, but being able to do a jutsu is much more than that and requires some sort of skill level. Sharingan probably helped him a lot, but learning those jutsu would probably take a long time to master.
     
  5. SaiST Retired Staff

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    It wasn't specifically said that Sasuke didn't copy it. Even if Sasuke wasn't able to reproduce this particular type of chakra control instantly, the Sharingan could have been a big part of the reason Sasuke was able to attain it so fast.

    Remember, that the Sharingan only allows the user to reproduce copied techniques if they are within the user's physical capacity. In Sasuke's case, he probably wasn't able to do so until he reached a certain point during those 2 or so weeks of training.
     
  6. QuoNina

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    I think only movements are copiable. Form manipulations are movements, so they are copiable, but not element manipulations. Elements are quality.

    Like, you can copy the lip movements of others to learn to talk, but you can't copy how bad their mouths smell by memorizing. You have to fundementally change your own body such as eating onion to change the smell.
     
  7. SumDumGai

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    Sasuke wouldn't be able to copy a jutsu that he would never be able to pull off, just because they say "copy" i'm sure it isn't just like looking at the jutsu and having it mastered like that. Kakashi has copied over a thousand jutsu because he is obviously very skilled and talented and the Sharingan allowing him to much more easily memorize and understand jutsus just builds on this.
     
  8. ZensetsuDoKDo

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    i think elements cannot be copied....:oh
     
  9. SaiST Retired Staff

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    This is nothing more than another form of chakra control. All Shinobi must go through a certain process to learn how to change the nature of their chakra to various elements; there's nothing about this the Sharingan shouldn't be able to read.
     
  10. QuoNina

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    I doubt it. Nature is a different type of "control". It's a switch between natures. Nature is much more internalized, different from what's copiable. It's not even about how focused you need your chakra to be or which parts of the body it goes to. It's just ... nature. Thus the process itself is not copiable, either. Otherwise Kakashi learns all 5 elements. =/
     
  11. ♠Mr.Nibbles♠

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    if sharigan just allowed you to outright copy without having enough skill to master it then every sharigan user would be a jounin and higher. copying clearly doesn't mean mastery
     
  12. wiggely

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    it was because sasuke only had the two tomoe sharingan. the databook description refers to a fully developed three tomoe sharingan. a fully developed sharingan can copy nature manuplation

    lets please not get into this again.
     
  13. QuoNina

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    ^The databook says Sharingan can copy elements? Element manipulation is new stuff though. What did it say about copying elements?
     
  14. Naruko Supporting Staff

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    Zactly. So to sum it up, no the sharingan *isnt* 'all that'. It would be like you watching someone play beethoven's 9th on the piano. You could watch their movements and from that, copy it....but if you lack the muscle-motor training of a skilled pianist, and if you lack the talent of a real musician to have that certain 'touch' that makes it sound divine/special, no matter how often you watch them play it and how often you try to copy it, you'll never be able to do it, or do it as well. In a world where jutsus are jealously guarded and executed in a flash to keep others from seeing what you're doing or anticipating how to counter it, the sharingan gives you an edge. But the holder of the sharingan still has their own physical limits to deal with. Seeing =/= doing.
     
  15. QuoNina

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    ^hm? Who is saying what? :p
    I thought what Sai meant was Sharingan is able to copy elements after reaching 3 tomoes or reaching certain level though. But maybe we are all saying the same thing.

    I think a better way to put this is to say bloodline gives Sasuke an edge. Bloodlines bring you natural affinity to certain types of chakra, like Hazu's clan and like Uchiha. But it's not within the "copying" capacity of Sharingan itself.
     
  16. SaiST Retired Staff

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    And a subset of Ninjutsu, which the Sharingan is said to expose all the systems of.

    This isn't like a Kekkei Genkai or an ability that requires prep time and dealings to execute(like Kuchiyose-related Ninjutsu). It's a form of chakra control that requires some sort of process to change the nature of one's chakra. The Sharingan should be able to reveal that.

    And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
     
  17. QuoNina

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    ^
    Chakra nature is said to be the fundemental of all jutsus. Everything coming out of you is affected. Change of quality. We are not sure if ninjutsu includes this kind of use of chakra. Even if it includes, it's not said that Sharingan can copy ALL ninjutsu. That's just playing around with definitions. How the manipulation works is more important.
    Some sort of uncopiable transformation. :p
    + Add: I meant he can't learn all 5 elements by copying.

    Well, how it works is probably not important anyway as long as they do learn it by this means or by other means. The only one who would care about this is probly Sasuke.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  18. kuchiyoseNOjutsu

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    Kakashi taught Sasuke mainly Taijutsu and increasing his speed, you know to use chidori effectively. Remember Kakashi was watching Lee and Gaara fight, and he definitely saw some major weaknesses in Gaara's sand shield due to Lee's speed.

    The main focus of Kakashi's training was to make Sasuke as fast or even faster than Lee to exploit Gaara's weakness. The chidori was the trump card, and was probably taught last after Sasuke achieved the desired speed.
     
  19. the_ralber_fan

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    The Sharingan can't copy jutsus with copyright! (I'll sue your ass no jutsu)

    I don't think the Sharingan can copy techniques where nature manipulation is involved in this case Chidori. Why? Well I think nature manipulation applies to Chidori or Katon techniques because the element manipulation comes from your body, unlike Suiton or Doton moves where you can use the elements surrounding you.

    For example we've seen Kakashi using Doton, Suiton plus Chidori(Raiton?) wich would give Kakashi the manipulation of three elements!? but he has never used Katon wich would envolve nature manipulation since the fire comes from your inside.

    Im not very good at explaining, hope you understood what i meant :p
     
  20. ~Redchaos325~

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    Kakashi cant do it, Its an extreamly hard thing to do given what Kakashi has explained on it. I dont think it would be possible to copy something like that.
     
  21. SleepingDisaster

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    well the first naruto the movie is a filler afterall,

    kakashi sure copy ice element summoning, he didn't use chakra booster
    but he able to summon it
     
  22. Kayo

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    I guess it can't be copied. The other reason could be due to the plot.
     
  23. Shidoshi

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    He probably did copy the elemental nature manipulation; Kakashi said it just took him several long days to master it.

    There's a difference.
     
  24. sexualrug

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    So are you drawing a distinction between copying and mastering in the sense that copying does not mean you are able to perform something? Could you explain this distinction?

    I thought copying was synonymous to creating a perfect replication.
     
  25. RoastedTanuki

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    You cant copy chakra nature. You either have it or you dont, where do you people get this stuff from. Kakashi could copy rasengan up to a point because it was a pure chakra control technique, but he couldnt mix it with his own chakra nature. He also said that you can only copy upto an A class jutsu not S!

    Now Naruto said that Sasuke has 2 chakra natures but that has nothing to do with copying jutsu. Sasuke has lightning chakra nature and probably due his bloodline automatically has fire chakra nature. I know this is confusing the way I wrote bcuz im being bitched out as I right this and I lost my train of thought but bottom line is you cant copy chakra nature period.
     
  26. Malthara

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    Sasuke only had 2 tomoe's so his copying skills weren't that great back then and I think sharingan CAN copy elemental jutsu's or else the great copy wheel eye wouldn't work for like 80 percent of all jutsu's and that's just stupid. Rather I think it can't make you instantly learn nature manipulation so you can copy it but only after you already know how to make wind/fire/earth/lightning/water chakra.
    I mean kakashi copied zabuzas water dragon, and even if you say he knew that before it's probably cause he copied it from somewhere before, his normal manipulation is lightning so to learn a water tech he probably copied it from someone else.

    They always mention because of kakashi's great skill he's able to recreate the jutsu's so perfectly. I think this means since sharingan can't make you learn nature manipulation just cause it was in a jutsu you copied you have to learn it on your own. After learning it you can reproduce a jutsu that uses it but if your own skill at using nature manipulation sucks it'll come out in the same form but probably worse. Like asuma wind blades will probably be sharper than naruto's for quite awhile even if they did the same jutsu asumas would probably cut through naruto's.
     
  27. SaiST Retired Staff

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    You are born with an affinity to a particular type, but your must still go through the appropiate training to convert your chakra to any element. Naruto may have an affinity to wind, but that isn't stopping him from learning any other types. There is a technique involved to change that nature that anyone can learn. This isn't like a Kekkei Genkai.

    And the above poster brings up a good point, this physical recomposition of one's chakra into a particular element is the foundation for a large number of Ninjutsu, and are part of what seperates the countries and gives them their respective names. If this type of chakra control could not be read by the Sharingan, don't you think it would have been pointed out by Kakashi(he did specifically mention that Haku's Hyoton could not be copied due to it being a Kekkei Genkai, after all), or mentioned in some official data?

    What kills me is that, a good year ago, 90% of the folk on this forum said the Rasengan couldn't be copied for this reason alone. It took like--what?... 2 years for that to finally settle?

    And now there's this...


    He did not.
     
  28. Bankotsu_the_Great

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    The Sharingan can't copy things that the users body and mind are not capable of in their current level and knowledge. Plus, it isn't a jutsu, it Chakra manipulation. There is a difference..
     
  29. SaiST Retired Staff

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    The Sharingan copies what it reads. Reproducing those copied techniques depend on the user's physical capacity.

    Again, copies what it reads. And the Sharingan exposes everything from hand seals, to chakra kneading.
     
  30. QuoNina

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    It's getting blurrier and blurrier of what is being argued here.

    -We all agree on that you need to achieve a certain level of physical capacity to do elemental manipulation.
    -Regardless of what Sharingan can do, bloodlines do give an advantage of elemental manipulation as seen in not only the Uchiha clan because it affects their natural affinity to elements.

    So it's very possible that Sasuke would learn a second element without telling us if elemental manipulation is copiable. Because he has already got plenty of reasons to get there.

    -The question is just if Sharingan itself helps to copy something down. I think not. It's something not existing in Sasuke's chakra nature. There is a "process" there to change one's elements. But having a process doesnt mean it's copiable if the secondary chakra nature is simply not there.

    There is a "process" in converting to Kyuubi mode, too. Does that mean Sasuke can copy that process and use Kyuubi's red hot and big chakra, too? No because Sasuke doesn't have Kyuubi chakra. He needs to get Kyuubi chakra first by other means. Just like you obtain your second chakra by whatever training you need.

    But this is definitely copiable. *copies*
     
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