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Why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by UchihaX28, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. UchihaX28

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    What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28? :mikebatman

    To preface, it seems as though people are constantly underrating Kakashi by denying any advantages Kakashi has in this match-up whilst simultaneously fabricating comparisons such as Jiraiya being faster with absolutely no basis. The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a thorough breakdown as to why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya. This is not a thread where you discuss your opinion on the matter because there's already another thread for that unless it directly pertains to the arguments that I'm presenting.

    Introduction




    Kakashi has a plethora of tools in order to win this match-up. He has the tactical mind that surpasses Shikamaru's, speed that can compete with faster competitors than Jiraiya, and the Sharingan which can be used in a multitude of ways which will be described later in this match-up. It's no surprise to anyone that Pain Arc Kakashi is inferior to Jiraiya who received praise from Pain for his performance against him. However, War Arc Kakashi has accrued even greater feats since then, received praise from Obito and Madara, displayed greater proficiency in using his Mangekyo, and finally mastered his Sharingan as of Databook 4. Kakashi is not the same person he was before the War Arc.

    Speed

    One of Kakashi's signature traits is not only his tactical mind, but his speed as well. He managed to battle against V2 Jins directly in combat who were wielding Obito's Sharingan and taking advantage of Shared Vision as a result. Many who don't view this as a significant thing forget to consider the fact that even before using Bijuu enhancements, Obito's Jinchuuriki were explicitly shown to be too fast for KCM Naruto and their Sharingan enabled them to see through all of KCM Naruto's and Base Bee's moves, both of which are much faster than SM Jiraiya. In spite of this, Kakashi managed to battle them directly while Jiraiya struggled immensely against Nagato's paths who were physically slower and did not have the major reaction buff that Obito's paths did thanks to his Sharingan. One point-blank blindside punch from SM Jiraiya was effortlessly cock-blocked by Human Path and he was forced to retreat and target Animal Path instead.

    Throughout the manga, Kakashi has accrued many other feats as well. He matched Itachi twice by showcasing the sufficient speed and reflexes necessary to see through Itachi's bluff and simultaneously react to his suiton attack from underwater. During that time-frame, Kakashi not only countered Itachi's attack, but he managed to bunshin feint him and caught him off-guard with a potential attack from under-water. He displayed even greater skill during their 2nd encounter when Kakashi bunshin feinted him within a few panels and restrained him to set him up for Naruto's Oodama Rasengan. Let's not forget that Itachi is quite the speedster and managed to bunshin feint Hebi Sasuke and swap places with his bunshin which his Sharingan could not detect while Kakashi could. Let's take this a step further and refer to Sasuke's feat against V1 Bee. He was weaker than Hebi Sasuke was yet displayed reaction speed that reminded Bee of Raikage. This doesn't mean Kakashi is flat out faster than V1 Raikage is, but it guarantees that Kakashi even prior to the War Arc displayed reaction speed comparable to V1 Raikage's based on his performance against Itachi who is faster than Hebi Sasuke is.

    Lastly, let's refer to Kakashi's speed relative to Gai. It's implied that Kakashi could compete with Gai several times in CQC which forced Gai to devise a counter through Sharingan Genjutsu because he couldn't counter him with his Taijutsu. This is the same CQC expert who outclassed KCM Naruto in taijutsu. Kakashi also managed to operate on a similar level as 6th Gate Gai as his Raiden matched 6th Gate Gai's Morning Peacock in speed. 6th Gate Gai also outsped Kisame before he could form a single thought and Kisame outmaneuvered Base Bee who could react to an attack from Minato and was fast enough to intercept a punch from V1 Raikage on Naruto at point-blank range. He also evaded V1 Bee effortlessly which we concluded is a feat that rivals Sharingan users and is within V1 Raikage's tier. Thus, we conclude that Kakashi during the War Arc is actually much faster than Kisame who is within V1 Raikage tier in terms of reflexes which is far beyond Jiraiya's paygrade here as it requires the likes of War Arc SM Naruto to precisely react to V1 Raikage. This may seem absurd to some, but Base Gai still outperformed KCM Naruto in CQC and easily reacted to a blindside attack from Obito, so this is equally as likely.

    The fact that Kakashi consistently competes with someone who outclasses KCM Naruto in CQC, can amp his speed even further through Gates, and has Genjutsu to apply constant pressure during a battle should cement his superiority over SM Jiraiya in that regard.

    Ninjutsu

    While it is true that Jiraiya's ninjutsu potential exceeds Kakashi's, people blatantly ignore one of the predominant advantages of the Sharingan which has been displayed during the beginning of the manga and it's the ability to read into ninjutsu and counter it effectively. This was illustrated during Kakashi's battle with Zabuza where he preempted all of Zabuza's seals and managed to replicate his ninjutsu which ended the match.



    Zabuza and Kakashi's stats at the time were relatively comparable and this result still happened. The speed disparity between Kakashi and Jiraiya as proven above is massive. Therefore, this event will inevitably happen where Kakashi preempts Jiraiya's seals, replicates them, and executes his jutsu before Jiraiya can even use his. Jiraiya's ninjutsu outside of Boss Summons which Kakashi can counter is not really that impressive to begin with and Kakashi holds the elemental advantage through Suiton and Raiton, so reading his seals to discern what type of jutsu is going to be used can also be used as a means to overpower Jiraiya. This advantage still holds true even towards the end of the manga even against a Perfect Sage, so the premise of Jiraiya having Sage Mode should guarantee victory in a ninjutsu exchange is an invalid argument and more accurately, a fallacy. Kakashi is not the generic elite Uchiha like Itachi is, he has a moniker that stems from his ability to use ninjutsu that is known throughout the entire world and the Akatsuki. Itachi being able to accomplish such a feat makes it more likely that Kakashi can to and integrate such a tactic into his fighting style seamlessly when battling Jiraiya.

    Sharingan Mastery

    This is something people gloss over when comparing War Arc Kakashi to his previous iterations. It's true that Kakashi is not an Uchiha which has been established to be a significant detriment for his ability to even use the Sharingan. However, as of Databook 4, Kishimoto explicitly states that Kakashi has finally mastered his Sharingan and can use it as if he were a full-blooded Uchiha.


    This entails that all of his abilities from using the Sharingan would receive a significant advantage including his perception, Kamui, ability to handle Sharingan strain, and Sharingan Genjutsu. It was heavily implied in Danzo and Sasuke's final exchange that.



    His skills of observation and ability to process external stimuli are greater due to mastering the Sharingan and it was for that very reason that Danzo lost to Sasuke despite wielding numerous Sharingan and possessing Hashirama's DNA. War Arc Kakashi is not the same Kakashi we once knew prior. He's a new man who can finally use his Sharingan more liberally and can use jutsu in conjunction with the Sharingan due to his ability to handle the Sharingan much like an Uchiha would.

    This also means that arguments that suggest that Kakashi won't use Kamui are inherently false. We're explicitly told numerous times that Kakashi refrains from using Kamui unless he was in a precarious situation due to the strain he experiences every time he uses it. [1] [2] This is no longer the case with Kakashi who could clash with Obito as his equal in genjutsu, could use Kamui several times throughout the War Arc and outwitted Obito with it, and was praised by both Obito and Madara as if he were an Uchiha, the latter of which explicitly compared him to EMS Sasuke to some extent. He was tired throughout the War Arc yet used it multiple times against Obito, used it to warp the Hachibi (Kurama's chakra doesn't mean he handles the aftereffect any better), used it to warp in and out of Kamui dimension a few times (it was implied this was a viable strategy to counter Obito), used it on the Gedo Mazo, and continued to use it multiple times against Juubidara. It is clear that Kakashi's mastery over the Mangekyo Sharingan would give Kakashi no reason to not even use Kamui if the opportunity presents itself.

    Genjutsu

    Due to his increased mastery over the Sharingan, we have to consider how Genjutsu can be used to his advantage. Prior, an argument can be made that Sharingan Genjutsu is a non-factor. However, it's been established as of Databook 4 that Kakashi has mastered his Sharingan since then and Sharingan genjutsu has been a basic tool employed by Sasuke, Itachi, Madara and Obito. Because Kakashi clashed with Obito in genjutsu and was commended for his ocular prowess by both Obito and Madara, there's literally no reason why he can't even use his Sharingan at least as well as MS Sasuke could whose genjutsu in comparison was stated to be quite pitiful by both Danzo and Obito. This means that subduing Boss Summons is no difficult task at all. Not only did Hebi Sasuke with nearly zero chakra managed to subdue Manda instantaneously, but the Boss Summons are sluggish targets and it's significantly easier to land genjutsu on slower targets than it is with faster targets. It's explicitly why Raikage was immune to Sharingan Genjutsu. Because of this, subduing his Boss Summons shouldn't be a difficult task at all and they can be used against him.

    Let's also not forget that eye contact must be made in order to land Sharingan Genjutsu (obviously). Jiraiya admits that it's impossible to counter an attack without seeing it at all even if you're a sensor type.



    Kakashi is significantly faster than Jiraiya as proven before, so Kakashi's ability to apply constant pressure on Jiraiya will force him to make eye contact with Kakashi like Itachi did with Bee. This is reinforced by the fact that Gai needed to devise a way to counter Sharingan Genjutsu despite having the speed and skill necessary to clash with Obito and outclass KCM Naruto in CQC, react to a blindside attack from Obito on top of that, and has Gates to amp his speed even further. Sharingan Genjutsu is inevitable and it'd be stupid if Jiraiya were to confront Kakashi up close.

    Strategy

    It goes without saying, Kakashi's tactical prowess is significantly above Jiraiya's. He's smarter than P1 Shikamaru and has a greater sense of smell than P1 Kiba. The former can think of over 100 possible moves that can be made in a particular situation while the latter will prove very useful in tracking SM Jiraiya if he ever attempts to use Frog Song.

    Now, let's consider a couple of arguments that people make in favor of Jiraiya:

    1. Jiraiya can use LoS blockers to obfuscate Kakashi. While yes, he can, but it's ridiculous to believe that Kakashi in that situation wouldn't devise a strategy in order to counter-attack. Kakashi managed to bunshin feint Itachi while erecting a Suiton barrier and using it to his advantage, he canonically bunshin feinted Itachi in the middle of his Katon and counter-attacked before Itachi could even launch a jutsu, and proceeded to bunshin feint Pain on an open-field despite the advantage of Shared Vision, something Jiraiya couldn't even overcome without a tactical retreat. The idea that Kakashi, the man whose intelligence rivals someone who can plan hundreds of possible moves within in a particular circumstance can't counter a simple smoke bomb is absolutely absurd. Smoke bombs was a tactic P1 Kiba could use and even P1 Naruto could counter it. Don't forget that.

    2. Jiraiya has clones? Nothing needs to be said here. Kakashi can as well except he managed to bunshin feint Itachi, the best of the best, and canonically bunshin feinted Pain on an open-field. He also feinted Obito and managed to warp Naruto away without Obito noticing. Jiraiya's best accomplishment was spitting out a fireball against one of Nagato's Paths in an ideal situation where Pain had no choice, but to block it. This is an extremely generic strategy. It's almost as if people cry "clones" at the moment that somebody uses clones on-panel. Nothing would change at all if Jiraiya didn't use a bunshin on panel. If Jiraiya uses a bunshin, he counters with his own. If a generic usage of clones is his best way of landing Frog Song, Kakashi will have no problems. His sense of smell and proficiency in using clones cements this, as well as the fact that he can warp to Jiraiya's location easily through Kamui.

    Conclusion



    Kakashi can defeat Jiraiya overall. He is significantly faster, he's a superior tactician, his Sharingan can counter Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and his mastery over the Sharingan lends him multiple advantages that he didn't have before when considering this match-up.

    Inb4 Jiraiya is faster than Kakashi with no feats. :troll
    Inb4 Jiraiya can avoid genjutsu with no feats. :troll
    Inb4 Jiraiya counters Kamui with no feats. :troll
    Inb4 Jiraiya throwing a smoke bomb KOs Kakashi with no feats. :troll

    All right Sannin cult, let's see what you got. If you come up with a bogus argument with no evidence/feats to support it and some portrayal garbage such as "Jiraiya beat Juubito" nonsense, then concession accepted. :blessed

    :robotkun

    Bring it on... Just make sure not to post an equally long response except with the typical lack of feats and substance behind it because I won't tolerate that shit in my thread homie. :ufdup
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  2. Bonly

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    Base Jiraiya would still overwhelm him
     
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  3. UchihaX28

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    The moment when I realize all my time has been wasted.

    :scust
     
  4. Bonly

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    You should’ve known that as you was typing out all that fluff
     
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  5. sabre320

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    Yes kakashi can beat jirayia but he would need to use kamui before sage mode which is very probable. Kamui snipe is hax as hell and is ignored for convenience. The only thing that bugs me is people treat kakashi as if he is weaker then hebi sasuke in cqc when he has much better feats of landing clean hits on v2 sharingan amped jinchuriki while evading their hits...this is honestly superior to any cqc feats from itachi or ms sasuke.
     
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  6. Orochimaruwantsyourbody

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    You wasted enough time if you read the series and came to any of these conclusions.
     
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  7. UchihaX28

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    Just what I expected. Bark, but no bite. :lbj
     
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  8. Crimson Flam3s

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    As usual, no real counters to any of the good points brought up here.

    Those posts should be disregarded.

    Great points overall, while I do not believe Kakashi's combat speed so far ahead of SM Jman enough to overwhelm him, I do believe it would be enough to cause great trouble to base Jman, specially when precog comes into the equation.

    Something else to add, stamina wise.

     
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  9. UchihaX28

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    If not his speed, at least his reactions in addition to his skill should be enough to overwhelm JMan in CQC. SM Jiraiya has no feats that come close to outclassing KCM Naruto in taijutsu while Kakashi kept up with a CQC expert who does and has Sharingan Genjutsu which forces Jiraiya to avoid eye contact and hampers his ability to react to Kakashi's attacks. By Jiraiya's affirmation, he believes that such is an impossible feat, so I can't really see Jiraiya doing anything against Kakashi to begin with unless he wants to be subdued by genjutsu.
     
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  10. X III

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    I guarantee this is the only reason you're wanking Kakashi ITT. Either that, or a Kakashi stan managed to hack into your account. :kksharing


    I do find it odd that a simple one-liner received more winner ratings than your entire post. I commend you for the hard work and dedication put into your post.
     
  11. Icegaze

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    @UchihaX28
    By DB 4 jiriaya is referred to as a perfect sage
    He is also given frog katas
    Which means his fight with pain is barely legit as human path would have died

    With frog katas he won’t have had an issue keeping it close in Taijutsu and ultimately beating the 3 without needing to retreat

    As I doubt pain would figure out katas on first strike

    So most of the feats we are using to judge jiriaya aren’t perfectly clear as kishi changed his mind on jiriaya standing

    I mean we see Minato asking naruto to add Senjutsu to his rasengan only for him to go SM couple of chapters later

    When we know using kurama cloak makes it faster to gather sm
     
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  12. Orochimaruwantsyourbody

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    If I’m too give a vaguely serious response...

    Your post is mostly fluff or irrelevant. There are also factual errors.

    You’re posting things that happened in illusions and presenting them as real.

    Your scan on Kakashi’s Kamui from the Databook says absolutely nothing about anything you said. It specifically says that Kakashi mastered The ocular technique of the MS, referring to Kamui in a singular manner. You then posted a scan of Sasuke’s fight with Danzo that directly contradicts your post where Obito refers to Sasuke defeating Danzo with his Uchiha genes while Danzo (the fake MS user) lost. At no point did anything say that Kakashi somehow became like a real Uchiha.

    Base Gai is no match at all for Obito or KCM Naruto in a CQC fight. You can start a thread on it, it will be 90% of people arguing Naruto and Obito would neg him and 10% saying they win after a decent fight. There is a reason Gai barely survived a exchange that was only a few scans long in a 4v1 fight.

    Kakashi did not fight the three Paths Jiraiya fought. Kakashi was instead killed by just two of them while one armed Jiraiya did as much damage fighting six. Kakashi would struggle to deal with Konan, and lose to an Animal Path/Konan combo in Jiraiya’s situation against Pein.

    Kakashi did not successfully feint Itachi in PI. It was Itachi who had the upper hand in the exchange.

    Kakashi only feinted Shoten Itachi rather than the real Itachi in PII, and only did it in a 4v1 fight.

    Kakashi and Gai never fought Obito’s Six Paths at once. When they fought the Paths they did fight, they did it at full strength while KCM Naruto was noted to be gimped during the fight due to exhaustion. Bee meanwhile outperformed Kakashi and Gai.

    Kakashi does not have the chakra to match Jiraiya and Gamabunta’s large scale Ninjutsu even if he tries to copy it anymore than one fodder Ninja would have held back Madara’s Katon with their Suiton in the war. Kakashi can no doubt hold his own and perhaps even beat base Jiraiya in a small scale Ninjutsu exchange, but when Jiraiya starts using larger Jutsu Kakashi will be forced onto the defensive creating the typical Kamui or bust situation.

    SM Jiraiya uses multiple elements at once through his summons, Kakashi cannot match that at all regardless of element.

    We have never seen Kakashi use Futon or Katon while we have seen Jiraiya and his summons use every element besides Raiton. Jiraiya wins regardless. If Kakashi uses Raiton Jiraiya and his summons use Futon, if Kakashi uses Katon Jiraiya and his summons use Suiton, if Kakashi uses Doton Jiraiya and his summons use a bigger Doton, ifKakashi uses a Suiton Jiraiya and his summons use a Doton, and if Kakashi uses a Futon Jiraiya and his summons use a Katon. They can also use oil and power their attacks with Senjutsu.

    Most of Jiraiya’s arsenal doesn’t use elements anyhow. Hari Jizo, giant toads, space time jutsu, clones, super strength, Frog Kata, Toad Esophagus, oil, Rasengansm and the Food Cart Destroyer have no elemental weakness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  13. X III

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    Literally speaking, he isn't. The databook would be wrong in this case, as it's made evident in the Manga that he isn't perfect. Kishimoto does retcon things, but not this drastically.

    Naruto was already in Sage Mode, so there was no harm in that. Minato also rarely uses Sage Mode because he doesn't believe himself to be a good one.
     
  14. kokodeshide

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    Just want to point out that in the War Arc, kakashi is literally 100% blind in his sharingan. Which is impressive in its own way, but still, no more precog.
     
  15. Jad

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    Kakashi surppassed the Sannin in the War. So I agree, Jiraiya can't beat MS Kakashi.

    When Boruto era Kakashi comes along he'll probably even be stronger.
     
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  16. Icegaze

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    Kishi does retcon things and he states jiriaya is so he is
    In fact even Minato admits sage mode is Jiraya thing despite Minato going SM in 1 panel and saying he is no good at it

    So yes kishi for sport retcon things and isn’t consistent at all

    Amaterasu showings illustrate his wishy washy plot writing style where by a jutsu is as strong or as useless as he needs it to be

    Also jiriaya is given frog katas in DB4 which means human path had no business not getting sucker punched by jiriaya
     
  17. The_Conqueror

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    Any one can beat anyone if we go on assumptions and all but if a standard potrayal or difference is cited by the authour he will write fight such that the better potrayed one wins
     
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  18. Android

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    Yes. Kakashi CAN beat Jiraiya.

    Just not more times than not.

    Spoiler:
    Base Jiraiya I mean.
     
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  19. dergeist

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    Technically Kakashi had the Sharingsn so it's Pseudo Uchiha wank, no?
     
  20. Samael

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    You did something that I'm sure has granted you an automatic care to enter the golden gates above, God bless you uchiha and this beautiful post :pff
    Ahhh shit nevermind dude had a secret agenda this whole time, God damnit! Uchiha why can't you just quit with this wank for at least a day:tiredpepe
     
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  21. Munboy Dracule O'Brian

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    I like how all the Jiraiya fans liked this post. :maybe
     
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  22. Turrin

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    @UchihaX28

    I respect the time you put into this and you clearly did a deep dive on Kakashi fighting style, but this is still wrong. And the reason it’s wrong is because it’s a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style and how he approaches battle.

    Kakashi reading Jiraiya seals and copying his techniques is pointless because 90% of his fighting style revolves around his summons or combos with them which Kakashi can’t copy.

    Kakashi using his superior speed or Genjutsu on Jiraiya seems primarily based on the fact that’s Jiraiya will be mixing it up in CQC with Kakashi. But that is also a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style as he doesn’t engage in straight forward CQC. He’s actually a Mid/Long Range fighter primarily, only really engaging in CQC when setting up traps. So he isn’t likely to be in a range where speed will matter or forcing eye contact will be feasible.

    So if you want me to believe Kakashi can best Base Jiraiya (not even Sage), you need to explain how Kakashi can handle Jiraiya Long Range Jutsu, summons, and traps. None of which is mentioned in the opening.

    Kamui is Kamui and we can have a separate discussion about that, but first I’d like to see what you believe Kakashi can do without it against the above mentioned abilities of Jiraiya
     
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  23. JuicyG

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    Said exactly what was on my mind reading his post.
     
  24. Wrecked Baloney

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  25. Tanto

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    It's time for people to accept that Kakashi can beat Jiraiya :kanyeshrug
     
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  26. Azula

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    Why is Kakashi fighting 6 paths who have their attention divided in 4 different people a positive point for him?

    And even still he got kicked by the tail of one of the jins?

    Jiraiya fought 3 paths with undivided attention and didn't get a scratch. Jiraiya fought 6 paths with undivided attention and still didn't get a scratch.

    And on top of that the jins were only better than their past selves but Obito was also conserving chakra in their usage because he doesn't have as much as Nagato.

    So that brings down the Edo jin paths in comparison to Nagato's 6 paths
     
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  27. UchihaX28

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    I will be addressing counterarguments either tonight or tomorrow. I have a long day at school since I only go to school twice a week, but I promise to respond to everything asap.
     
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  28. dergeist

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  29. UchihaX28

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    Holidays? Im already 2 weeks out of Spring Break, but if it helps, I go to school in Tacoma.
     
  30. ShinAkuma

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    Reps.
     
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