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Why Nagato isn't equal to Juubito even though Rinnegan = SPSM

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Nagato has the Rinnegan. Juubito has SPSM. Some say this puts them as equal or at least in a similar boat.

I'm here to tell you...they're incorrect. And here's why, straight from canon.

Yes, the Rinnegan = SPSM according to feats and portrayal.

The eye and body powers are consistently portrayed as ultimately equal, through the rivalry and euqality of Indra and Ashura, through the rivalry of Hashirama and Madara, and ultimately that of Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto gaining 50% of Hagoromo's chakra gives him SPSM. Sasuke gaining an equal 50% gives him the Rinnegan. Juudara even lampshades it.

Now, theoretically this should mean any Rinnegan ~ or = any SPSM, right?

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG.

1) Obito explicitly tells us that to use the full strength of the Rinnegan, you need to:

A) Have BOTH eyes, not just one.

B) Be the original user of both eyes.


Nagato has both eyes, but he also isn't the true owner of either. Therefore, he'd be far weaker than a Madara with both Rinnegan (or a Juubi Jinchuriki Madara that had no Rinnegan, hypothetically speaking), to say nothing of a JJ Madara with both Rinnegan. I don't think anyone doubts this. But what about Obito?

Nagato has both eyes but isn't their original owner. Juubito has one eye but isn't its original owner. Two eyes >> one.

However, Juubito has two other things to separate himself from Nagato. He has SPSM through being the Juubi's Jinchuriki. And SPSM is a roughly equal power to TWO Rinnegan in the original user's possession. Nothing says one needs to be ''original'' to use SPSM either. If anything, given the connection of SPSM to teamwork and cooperation and Hagoromo's trust and all that jazz (Naruto's SPSM involves multiple foreign beings - the Bijuu - and Ashura got it from Hagoromo due to his belief in cooperation to achieve peace, as opposed to pure might like his elder brother)...quite the opposite.

Naruto and Sasuke admittedly buck this trend a little bit as they're equal to or stronger than Juudara ultimately as they are supercharged not only by their incredibly strong bases (already approaching a living Hashirama and Madara respectively) but also extra buffs (9 Bijuu's Chakra through Obito and the Bijuu for Naruto and Hashirama's cells through Kabuto, giving Naruto essentially Juubi chakra and Sasuke the template for a Rinnegan already), AND 50% of chakra from Hagoromo for both. Nagato, Obito, and Juudara on the other hand play this trend perfectly straight.

But...what about Obito nearly losing himself upon getting one Rinnegan? Just because Obito can't make full use of the eye's power doesnt mean the EYE itself gets less powerful, it's the same regardless of user, though the original user can just make far better use of it. It's little different from how Kurama is equally strong regardless of whether he's inside Baby Naruto or P1 Naruto or BOS Naruto or WA Naruto, though each version of Naruto is progressively better than the last at harnessing more of Kurama's chakra. Therefore, Nagato can have two Rinnegan AND access to a power that = being a JJ...without actually being that strong. After all, Naruto lost to the likes of Bell Test Kakashi, Genin Lee, P1 Kabuto, Kimimaro, VoTE Sasuke, 30% Itachi, etc. even though Kurama >>> all of them combined.

There is zero reason the same cannot be true for Nagato, ESPECIALLY given that Naruto at least has the potential to bring out ALL of Kurama's strength, whereas Nagato does NOT have the potential to use the eyes' full strength. Only Madara and Madara alone can do it.

2) The time factor:

We are told multiple times over that Rinnegan users grow stronger in their eye mastery over time. Sasuke literally tells Naruto that he got better at handling the Rinnegan after fighting Juudara and Kaguya, and goes from having his PS obliterated by Kaguya's chakra arms outright (the same chakra arms SPSM Naruto could fend off even without a Kurama avatar at all) to challenging SPSM Naruto's Kurama avatar and even more or less demonstrating comparable might. Yet even THEN Sasuke's Rinnegan mastery is incomplete - something Kurama even points out is literally due to his freshness with the eye - and it literally ends up preventing Sasuke from defeating his friend.

Nagato had the Rinnegan for...years. Madara only awakened his Rinnegan at a VERY old age, just before death, and had little opportunity to test it out in battle like Sasuke did. When he finally regained his Rinnegan AND youth, he literally got defeated minutes after that. Obito too had very little time to acclimatize to his Rinnegan, only weeks at best, and also lost his Rinnegan the same day he used it in battle.

No such limitation is ascribed to SPSM. If Obito had more time with Rinnegan as Nagato did, JJ Obito could be even stronger.

Ergo...ranked in order from strongest to weakest...

1. SPSM + 2 Rinnegan in the original user's possession + time (DRG JJ Madara)

[massive gap]

2. SPSM + 2 Rinnegan in the original user's possession (DRG JJ Madara)

[massive gap]

3. SPSM + 1 Rinnegan (1RG JJ Madara) in the original user's possession

[big gap]

4. SPSM + 1 Rinnegan (1RG JJ Obito) in another user's possession

[big gap]

5. SPSM alone (hypothetical non-RG JJ Madara) / 2 Rinnegan in the original user's possession + time (hypothetical non-JJ DRG Madara)

[massive gap]

6. 2 Rinnegan in the original user's possession (hypothetical non-JJ DRG Madara)

[massive gap]

7. 2 Rinnegan in a different user's possession (Nagato)

[massive gap]

8. 1 Rinnegan in a different user's possession (1RG Obito), all things equal*
 
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Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
It's also worth remembering that Nagato is kind of a blank template as a ninja, an Uzumaki that doesn't really demonstrate any Uzumaki abilities or any other abilities outside astounding stamina and longevity that could be truly applicable for combat. Compare to Obito or Madara who even without their Doujutsu (and certainly without their own Rinnegan) are vastly superior. Blind Madara makes SM Naruto of all people look like a punk and outplays DMS Sasuke of all people, and even a Doujutsu-less Obito should still have a base comparable to a Doujutsu-less Kakashi, a man that became a Jonin at the age of 13 before acquiring the Sharingan AND is Hokage after losing it.

Therefore, my list is UNDERRATING Obito and Madara, if anything*. I'm just comparing them in regard to Rinnegan and SPSM, not overall.
 
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Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Think of the Rinnegan like a video game with unlockable characters or stages. Madara, Nagato, and Obito all have Pokemon: Let's Go Pikachu. However, Nagato and Obito cannot capture any Pokemon due to their controls being very buggy, and therefore cannot even beat Brock (you need a Pokemon with SE moves in your team just to be able to fight him). Therefore, they cannot progress far with the game or beat it. Madara, however, has properly functioning controls and hence can catch Pokemon, fight Brock, beat him, and the game itself.
 

MarF

Ostarrichi
>Nagato has the Rinnegan. Juubito has SPSM.

Juubito doesn't have Six Paths Sage Mode, that's a unique transformation that Hagoromo gifted to Naruto and nobody else. Juubito has Rikudo Senjutsu from his ten tails coffin seal and that's it.

This is the equivalent of saying that CS2 Sasuke is a Sage Mode user because his cursed mark allows him to use Senjutsu.


>Some say this puts them as equal or at least in a similar boat.

 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Nagato has the Rinnegan. Juubito has SPSM. Juubito doesn't have Six Paths Sage Mode, that's a unique transformation that Hagoromo gifted to Naruto and nobody else. Juubito has Rikudo Senjutsu from his ten tails coffin seal and that's it

A distinction without a difference. Juudara outright identifies Naruto's SPSM as comparable - if not identical - to his form.

Juudara also notes that Obito was in ''Sage Mode'' before. Six Paths Coffin Seal is only the technique Obito/Madara uses to enter SPSM.

It isn't SPSM itself, IIRC.

This is the equivalent of saying that CS2 Sasuke is a Sage Mode user because his cursed mark allows him to use Senjutsu

You could definitely say Sasuke is a Sage Mode user IMO. Sage Mode is literally what you are in upon using enough NE to stay (mostly) human and get an amp. It's just a more ''imperfect'' Sage Mode than the one Naruto, Hashirama, and seemingly Kabuto all have.
 

blk

Well-Known Member
Nagato scales to Juubito because he has Rinnegan (and Rinnegan is > Juubi as stated).

Hiruzen scales to juubito because he reacted to him.

Jman was stated to be above Hiruzen, fought & could have defeated Nagato and also fought Urashiki who scales above adult Sasuke.

Juubito also stated that Jman defeated him.


Do your math :DankPepe
 

Fused

The Absolute God
Think of the Rinnegan like a video game with unlockable characters or stages. Madara, Nagato, and Obito all have Pokemon: Let's Go Pikachu. However, Nagato and Obito cannot capture any Pokemon due to their controls being very buggy, and therefore cannot even beat Brock (you need a Pokemon with SE moves in your team just to be able to fight him). Therefore, they cannot progress far with the game or beat it. Madara, however, has properly functioning controls and hence can catch Pokemon, fight Brock, beat him, and the game itself.
In short, Madara is a Pro player while Nagato and Obito are the sad noob players :blessed:blessed:blessed

Which matches the story really.
 

MarF

Ostarrichi
A distinction without a difference. Juudara outright identifies Naruto's SPSM as comparable - if not identical - to his form.

Juudara also notes that Obito was in ''Sage Mode'' before. Six Paths Coffin Seal is only the technique Obito/Madara uses to enter SPSM.

It isn't SPSM itself, IIRC.

Madara isn't even a proper Sage Mode user though, he had to steal it from Hashirama and use his Hashiboob as a medium for it. His opinions on SM and Senjutsu should be taken with a grain of salt.

The power that the Juubi jins and Naruto use are similiar, ultimately coming from the same source in Kaguya and the Juubi/Shinju, but not the same.

SPSM isn't a transformation you can attain on your own, it's a gift from Hagoromo. He literally took parts of his own natural power and turned them into a transformation for Naruto.
You could definitely say Sasuke is a Sage Mode user IMO. Sage Mode is literally what you are in upon using enough NE to stay (mostly) human and get an amp. It's just a more ''imperfect'' Sage Mode than the one Naruto, Hashirama, and seemingly Kabuto all have.
Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode.

Sage Mode is the art of drawing upon Nature Energy and molding it into your own physical and spiritual energy, creating Sage Chakra.

Senjutsu is simply a classification for Nin-, Tai- and Genjutsu that is used with Sage Chakra.

Using Sage Mode requires the user to actively sense and manipulate the Natural Energy of his surroundings on his own, that's a skill that has to be learned and mastered.

SM and CS are very similar in what they provide, but in the end they're still two different and unequal skills. CS2 Sasuke isn't a chakra sensor like proper SM users and neither can he sense or manipulate raw natural energy.

This unironically happened.

And you actually dignified it with a serious response?

Wait people think Nagato is on the same level as Juubito? :scoobyhuh

The NDB also has people who think Kaguya is comparable to KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke and somebody who has ranked Kisame on a similiar level as BSM Naruto.
 

Charmed

Forever Charmed
He's not as strong as a JJ.....
Id argue Healthy Nagato is stronger than Rinnegan Obito but that's still far from a JJ
 

Subtle

Well-Known Member
Rinnegan (in regards to the original owner) doesn't equal SPSM when in Madara's possession, they are hyped beyond that, Obito was in possession of the Juubi's chakra and SPS (taken from Madara) stated Madara becomes unbeatable with both.

Obito wields a superior Rinnegan compared to Nagato as statements suggest his is stronger when KCM Naruto tried to remove the chakra rods from Biju.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Obito isn’t the original user; and he couldn’t control the power of the Duel Rinnegan but could control the power of the Juubi

But...what about Obito nearly losing himself upon getting one Rinnegan? Just because Obito can't make full use of the eye's power doesnt mean the EYE itself gets less powerful, it's the same regardless of user, though the original user can just make far better use of it.

It's little different from how Kurama is equally strong regardless of whether he's inside Baby Naruto or P1 Naruto or BOS Naruto or WA Naruto, though each version of Naruto is progressively better than the last at harnessing more of Kurama's chakra.

Therefore, Nagato can have two Rinnegan AND access to a power that = being a JJ...without actually being that strong. After all, Naruto lost to the likes of Bell Test Kakashi, Genin Lee, P1 Kabuto, Kimimaro, VoTE Sasuke, 30% Itachi, etc. even though Kurama >>> all of them combined.

There is zero reason the same cannot be true for Nagato, ESPECIALLY given that Naruto at least has the potential to bring out ALL of Kurama's strength, whereas Nagato does NOT have the potential to use the eyes' full strength. Only Madara and Madara alone can do it
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Rinnegan (in regards to the original owner) doesn't equal SPSM when in Madara's possession, they are hyped beyond that, Obito was in possession of the Juubi's chakra and SPS (taken from Madara) stated Madara becomes unbeatable with both.

Obito wields a superior Rinnegan compared to Nagato as statements suggest his is stronger when KCM Naruto tried to remove the chakra rods from Biju.

Please read the OP. Obito and Nagato used the same Rinnegan, Obito's wasn't stronger, and Obito had access to Madara's Six Paths Jutsu - no proof Nagato did.
 

dergeist

Well-Known Member
The simpler explanation is he has weaker chakra than the other users.

Nagato scales to Juubito because he has Rinnegan (and Rinnegan is > Juubi as stated).

Hiruzen scales to juubito because he reacted to him.

Jman was stated to be above Hiruzen, fought & could have defeated Nagato and also fought Urashiki who scales above adult Sasuke.

Juubito also stated that Jman defeated him.


Do your math :DankPepe

And Asspullnato (My fave) gets solod and humilated in the crossfire :gglife
 
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Turrin

玄武
I’m not saying Nagato > Juubi Jin necessarily. I’m saying Nagato has access to a power > Juubi. So we are saying the same thing.

As far as Nagato power goes there is no way to scale Nagato; as we never saw full power living Nagato fight; we only saw him cast Rinnei Tensei when near death @Aegon Targaryen
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I’m not saying Nagato > Juubi Jin necessarily. I’m saying Nagato has access to a power > Juubi. So we are saying the same thing.

As far as Nagato power goes there is no way to scale Nagato; as we never saw full power living Nagato fight; we only saw him cast Rinnei Tensei when near death @Aegon Targaryen

1. Nagato isn't > Juubi Jins, period. He's nothing compared to them, in fact, an insect at best. Miss me with that "necessarily" doublespeak.

2. And Baby Naruto has access to a power that > Raikage. I guess Baby Naruto > the Raikage now :russ

3. Bullshit answer. We literally see Nagato get returned to his full strength (albeit immobile) upon absorbing Bee's chakra...only to get taken down by Itachi, a HEAVILY nerfed KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee.
 

Turrin

玄武
1. Nagato isn't > Juubi Jins, period. He's nothing compared to them, in fact, an insect at best. Miss me with that "necessarily" doublespeak.

2. And Baby Naruto has access to a power that > Raikage. I guess Baby Naruto > the Raikage now

3. Bullshit answer. We literally see Nagato get returned to his full strength (albeit immobile) upon absorbing Bee's chakra...only to get taken down by Itachi, a HEAVILY nerfed KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee.
We have no way to scale Living Nagato, so I’m sorry if it makes salty, but I’m not going to say anything definitive about Nagato’s strength one way or the other.

And no Edo Nagato’s is not equal to Living Nagato as Fake Rinnegan was stated to not be the same as the Real Rinnegan.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
We have no way to scale Living Nagato, so I’m sorry if it makes salty, but I’m not going to say anything definitive about Nagato’s strength one way or the other.

And no Edo Nagato’s is not equal to Living Nagato as Fake Rinnegan was stated to not be the same as the Real Rinnegan.

Then why do you scale him to JJ Obito?

Imagine saying "I can't scale him" and then scaling him to someone that sits WELL above the top tiers of the manga :russ

What's next, Prime Hanzo was actually stronger than Juudara?

Living Nagato's control was resisted by KSM NARUTO (not even KCM or BM) at close-range. This implies those versions of Naruto all scale above Nagato.

Heck, I'd argue there's no proof Nagato can fight directly eithout an Edo Tensei body (ET bodies don't care about sickness, blindness, or any of that jazz). Nagato relied on Pain for a reason - if he was truly much stronger in life, he would have done everything solo. You're just being dishonest as usual.

Yeah, he is. The fake Rinnegan shit only applies to Madara, someone who was experimented on by Kabuto after death and died without the Rinnegan inside him.
 

Turrin

玄武
Then why do you scale him to JJ Obito?

Living Nagato's control was resisted by KSM NARUTO (not even KCM or BM) at close-range. This implies those versions of Naruto all scale above Nagato.

Heck, I'd argue there's no proof Nagato can fight directly eithout an Edo Tensei body (ET bodies don't care about sickness, blindness, or any of that jazz).

Yeah, he is. The fake Rinnegan shit only applies to Madara, someone who was experimented on by Kabuto after death and died without the Rinnegan inside him.
I don’t. I said he has a power which scales above JJ Obito
—-
The Living Nagato who was resisted was fatigued to the point of near death. There is no way to scale off that.
—-
Well considering Nagato’s showed he can use Jutsu himself and not just through the Paths. Your wrong he can’t fight. And his Edo form that fought KCM Naruto was the Grey haired one and still effected by his weakness
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I don’t. I said he has a power which scales above JJ Obito
—-
The Living Nagato who was resisted was fatigued to the point of near death. There is no way to scale off that.
—-
Well considering Nagato’s showed he can use Jutsu himself and not just through the Paths. Your wrong he can’t fight. And his Edo form that fought KCM Naruto was the Grey haired one and still effected by his weakness

Yes, you did. You literally had them as equal.

Irrelevant. Nagato himself was shocked Naruto resisted control at that close a range, and he doesn't mention "being near death" as relevant. KSM is weaker than KCM and BM anyway so even if I steelman you, there are two further powerups that ensure Naruto is decisively above Nagato but far below jJs.

He can use jutsu himself =/ him actually being good at fighting or at least as good at fighting as Pain (y'know, the way he fights pretty much a the time in life). Edo Nagato is affected by immobility but that's it, he has none of living Nagato's other weaknesses. Exhaustion is not a problem.
 

Turrin

玄武
Yes, you did. You literally had them as equal.

Irrelevant. Nagato himself was shocked Naruto resisted control at that close a range, and he doesn't mention "being near death" as relevant. KSM is weaker than KCM and BM anyway so even if I steelman you, there are two further powerups that ensure Naruto is decisively above Nagato but far below jJs.

He can use jutsu himself =/ him actually being good at fighting or at least as good at fighting as Pain (y'know, the way he fights pretty much a the time in life). Edo Nagato is affected by immobility but that's it, he has none of living Nagato's other weaknesses. Exhaustion is not a problem.
1) I had them the same Nebulous Tier, not equals, but I have decided against that as there isn’t enough evidence to scale Nagato that high or not

2) Nagato can be shocked Naruto can resist even when he’s not full power; so that doesn’t prove anything. And we don’t know where KSM Naruto scales in comparison to those other Modes. And Nagato was so fatigued at this point he could just be stronger then those Modes. Like there is no way to scale this

3) Edo Nagato was not mobile and could still fight fine. And exhaustion effects everyone, so I don’t see why that means he can’t fight
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
1) I had them the same Nebulous Tier, not equals, but I have decided against that as there isn’t enough evidence to scale Nagato that high or not

2) Nagato can be shocked Naruto can resist even when he’s not full power; so that doesn’t prove anything. And we don’t know where KSM Naruto scales in comparison to those other Modes. And Nagato was so fatigued at this point he could just be stronger then those Modes. Like there is no way to scale this

3) Edo Nagato was not mobile and could still fight fine. And exhaustion effects everyone, so I don’t see why that means he can’t fight

1) Same nebulous tier...lmao. Nothing nebulous about an ant and a F16 being on the same tier. All evidence points to Nagato being the ant.

2) The burden of proof is on you to prove that Nagato not being at full strength was relevant. "Fatigue" doesn't really cover the gap between KSM and BM, and Nagato still had enough chakra for Rinne. Your favorite method of chakra scaling literally puts Naruto above Nagato, period.

3) Edo Nagato wasn't mobile, but he has none of the health issues of anorexic people nor any stamina strain. We already saw what ET did for Itachi and Hiruzen.
 
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